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Thread: Dedovschina and brain drain

  1. #1
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    Last edited by Lampada; December 13th, 2010 at 06:34 PM. Reason: trollism

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    Завсегдатай sperk's Avatar
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    I'd like to see some corroboration of that figure of 5000 dying during hazing. It seems preposterous that any army would allow that to go on.
    Кому - нары, кому - Канары.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ibshambat View Post
    The 5,000 recruits who die each year from it are 5,000 of Russia's best minds. Imagine the entire student body of Harvard slaughtered each year.
    It's a big problem, and I know that you used this phrase to attract attention to it, but I can't help but mention that calling these recruits best minds of Russia is a bit of a stretch.

    You do know that all students are exempt from military service as long as they are attending school, don't you? As well as those who have kids, and some other categories. So most recruits are those who droped out of school or who were unable to pass university exams, and who then failed (or refused) to use other convinient ways to avoid enrolling.
    Some young men enroll because they want to (either because they think it's their duty or for other reasons), but these guys are not usually get harassed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gRomoZeka View Post
    but these guys are not usually get harassed.
    Usually everybody get harassed.

    P.S. The post looks like brutal trolling.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    but these guys are not usually get harassed.
    Usually everybody get harassed.
    They don't get harassed to death, then? ))
    I think that level of brutality VERY MUCH depends on the place of service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gRomoZeka View Post
    They don't get harassed to death, then? ))
    I think that level of brutality VERY MUCH depends on the place of service.
    I've always wondered why a person can't choose on his own whether to sign up or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    I've always wondered why a person can't choose on his own whether to sign up or not.
    Because they say that 'defense of the homeland is a sacred duty of every man' or something like that...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    Because they say that 'defense of the homeland is a sacred duty of every man' or something like that...
    Would you agree with that?

  9. #9
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibshambat
    An estimated 5,000 recruits a year die as a result of the military hazing,
    5000 dead a year? Surely not in Russia alone. I don't believe that. Where are you getting your figures from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C.
    I've always wondered why a person can't choose on his own whether to sign up or not.
    Russia is not the only country that has this system. (conscription). It's very common across the world. If you look at the history of Europe, you can see why it was necessary; particularly for Russia - which has been a "favourite" place to try to invade throughout the centuries.

    Assuming there is no bullying, many people say it can be quite good for some guys to do military service. They grow up a bit during this period. For example, ALL guys I went to school with, did it for a year. They got tested, to see what type of assignment would suit the person. Some of the jobs were reasonably interesting, I think.

    But the system is not very good or efficient, so those countries that do not feel directly threatened are trying to get away from it. In a modern war, it is better to have a professional hi-tech and slick army with top equipment (like the USA or Britain) than simply a very large army.

    If you plan to USE your army, that is.... America and Britain for instance, DO use their militaries. Some countries are in a tense situation and have no choice but use conscription to make sure the army is the right size that's needed to protect the country.

    Is there debate about stopping conscription in Russia?

    One of the most popular books on Russia in the the UK, is Anna Politskaya's book (forgotten the name). Bullying in the military is an issue that she raises - it seems pretty clear that it causes a lot of problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    Would you agree with that?
    Nobody asked me when my time had come. ))) It doesn't matter. By law you MUST join the service unless you have a legal reason not to (health condition, family circumstances, education and some other). Evasion is considered a crime.

    P.S. Even though I admit that there are fatalities in Russian military I find the figure of 5000/year a big BS. And even though I can only judge by my own experience in the army, I saw very little cases of hazing. Of course we had the 'deds' and there were some punches from them but nothing out of the ordinary. Punches were not all that hard and were administered for the lack of discipline mostly. (And some people just don't understand any other language but a good punch).
    There are two kinds of units in Russian military. Where the commanders are weak the task of maintaining the discipline is usually taken by the 'deds'. But this situation is NOT universal. Our commanders were actually AFRAID that something might happen to us (up to a point of idiocy sometimes).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    Nobody asked me when my time had come. ))) It doesn't matter. By law you MUST join the service unless you have a legal reason not to (health condition, family circumstances, education and some other). Evasion is considered a crime.
    It might sound nice until they come up with something like a law prescribing to throw every 10th 18-year old male off a roof at a height of 30 metres, for instance. Anyway, forcing anyone to do something against their will is illegal, and this is what is a real crime. A law legalizing such kind of things is just a wrong law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    Anyway, forcing anyone to do something against their will is illegal, and this is what is a real crime. A law legalizing such kind of things is just a wrong law.
    No, strictly speaking, it's not illegal. Many countries have conscription system. Besides, if you want to join ranks with me in building the world's anarchy, you're welcome, of course, but they're forcing you to pay taxes against your will, aren't they? No, don't tell me that you pay them willingly. ))) There are many things in laws of any country which oblige its subjects into doing (or not doing) something against their will and that's what law is -- something to put a limit to your actions. And you MUST obey the law or you'll be prosecuted. Don't tell me it's wrong. I find all laws wrong as the idea of state itself.
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  13. #13
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    It might sound nice until they come up with something like a law prescribing to throw every 10th 18-year old male off a roof at a height of 30 metres, for instance. Anyway, forcing anyone to do something against their will is illegal, and this is what is a real crime. A law legalizing such kind of things is just a wrong law.
    You must be American since you know what's a "real crime" in countries other than your own, and what isn't...! It's their problem either way. FYI: This system is in use in some countries that are much more democratic than both the US and Russia, and voters (including the men affected) see no big problem with it.

    I am no big fan of the Russian army (or conscription) but I no difficulty understanding why 1) Russians feel they have to have an army and 2) they have had to use conscription to get the amount of soldiers they need to do the job properly. Anyone who ever looked in a history book would know that.

    Plus, as people mentioned here, in Russia it's clearly quite simple to get out of it anyway so it's a theoretical problem only. In smaller countries that option doesn't exist, since every person counts.

    Incidentally, without the Russian conscription based army WW2 Germany would probably have won in WW2.

    But it seems Russia ought to improve the conditions for the soldiers a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    Incidentally, without the Russian conscription based army WW2 Germany would probably have won in WW2.
    This is not strictly speaking true. At war-time a full mobilization is conducted which means that every able-bodied male aged from 18 to 60 is joining the army (I suspect that the full mobilization law exists even in the USA). These situations are extremely rare, fortunately, but in 1941 there was such a situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    This is not strictly speaking true. At war-time a full mobilization is conducted which means that every able-bodied male aged from 18 to 60 is joining the army (I suspect that the full mobilization law exists even in the USA). These situations are extremely rare, fortunately, but in 1941 there was such a situation.
    But it probably helps if these men are at least partially prepared.

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    The United States used to have the "draft." This is conscription.
    Eric C. >forcing anyone to do something against their will is illegal
    You always drive over speed limits, or run red lights when no-one's coming? Don't pay your state or federal income tax? Steal stuff instead of paying for it? Or is it your will that you comply with all the laws of the land? What if they reinstitute the draft here?

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    It seems like Dedovshcinina may be responsible for only 500 a year:
    http://teachpro.ru/source/obz11/Html/der11184.htm
    . Mayeb less: Russian Army Suicides: Brutal Hazing -- and Organ Harvesting? - TIME

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    Quote Originally Posted by chaika View Post
    The United States used to have the "draft." This is conscription.
    Eric C. >forcing anyone to do something against their will is illegal
    You always drive over speed limits, or run red lights when no-one's coming? Don't pay your state or federal income tax? Steal stuff instead of paying for it? Or is it your will that you comply with all the laws of the land? What if they reinstitute the draft here?
    Okay, let me restate it in a clearer way: no one has a right to tell anyone what profession to choose, and/or trap someone in some place and keep him/her there against his/her will. I hope at least with that you agree?!!

  19. #19
    Hanna
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    Eric, they are not forced into a profession! They have to spend about a year serving their country, protecting it. After that, they have done their duty and can go to university or get any job they want. While they are in the military they are taken care of and can travel, eat and live for free, so they have almost no expenses.

    In Sweden we say that women carry a baby for nine months; men to military service for a 9-12 months. Not a big deal whatsoever and many guys enjoy it. Those who really don't want to do it can usually get out of it by faking an illness or pretending to be gay. If you are a pacifist you can drive an ambulance, be a hospital helper or something like that.

    In Israel for example, everyone, man or woman has to do it for 2-3 years! Most Asian countries have military service and many countries in Europe. It's part of life but hopefully sometime in the future it will no longer be needed.

    The only problem is if, like in Russia, people die why doing it - due to bullying; that should be investigated and stopped.

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    Eric,
    This is a common practice thru out the world for people to have a mandatory term of service in the military.
    Military service - Citizendia
    The US had this as early as Vietnam.

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