Thread: Dedovschina and brain drain

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/russi...nd-brain-drain

I'd like to see some corroboration of that figure of 5000 dying during hazing. It seems preposterous that any army would allow that to go on.

Originally Posted by ibshambat

The 5,000 recruits who die each year from it are 5,000 of Russia's best minds. Imagine the entire student body of Harvard slaughtered each year.

It's a big problem, and I know that you used this phrase to attract attention to it, but I can't help but mention that calling these recruits best minds of Russia is a bit of a stretch.

You do know that all students are exempt from military service as long as they are attending school, don't you? As well as those who have kids, and some other categories. So most recruits are those who droped out of school or who were unable to pass university exams, and who then failed (or refused) to use other convinient ways to avoid enrolling.
Some young men enroll because they want to (either because they think it's their duty or for other reasons), but these guys are not usually get harassed.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

but these guys are not usually get harassed.

Usually everybody get harassed.

P.S. The post looks like brutal trolling.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

but these guys are not usually get harassed.

Usually everybody get harassed.

They don't get harassed to death, then? ))
I think that level of brutality VERY MUCH depends on the place of service.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

They don't get harassed to death, then? ))
I think that level of brutality VERY MUCH depends on the place of service.

I've always wondered why a person can't choose on his own whether to sign up or not.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I've always wondered why a person can't choose on his own whether to sign up or not.

Because they say that 'defense of the homeland is a sacred duty of every man' or something like that...

Originally Posted by ibshambat

An estimated 5,000 recruits a year die as a result of the military hazing,

5000 dead a year? Surely not in Russia alone. I don't believe that. Where are you getting your figures from?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I've always wondered why a person can't choose on his own whether to sign up or not.

Russia is not the only country that has this system. (conscription). It's very common across the world. If you look at the history of Europe, you can see why it was necessary; particularly for Russia - which has been a "favourite" place to try to invade throughout the centuries.

Assuming there is no bullying, many people say it can be quite good for some guys to do military service. They grow up a bit during this period. For example, ALL guys I went to school with, did it for a year. They got tested, to see what type of assignment would suit the person. Some of the jobs were reasonably interesting, I think.

But the system is not very good or efficient, so those countries that do not feel directly threatened are trying to get away from it. In a modern war, it is better to have a professional hi-tech and slick army with top equipment (like the USA or Britain) than simply a very large army.

If you plan to USE your army, that is.... America and Britain for instance, DO use their militaries. Some countries are in a tense situation and have no choice but use conscription to make sure the army is the right size that's needed to protect the country.

Is there debate about stopping conscription in Russia?

One of the most popular books on Russia in the the UK, is Anna Politskaya's book (forgotten the name). Bullying in the military is an issue that she raises - it seems pretty clear that it causes a lot of problems.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Is there debate about stopping conscription in Russia?

One of the most popular books on Russia in the the UK, is Anna Politskaya's book (forgotten the name). Bullying in the military is an issue that she raises - it seems pretty clear that it causes a lot of problems.

There is such a debate, but this debate is hardly ever heard.
The journalist Anna Politkovskaya was assassinated in 2006. Most of the Russian journalists think that she was assassinated because of her activity in human rights, and that she was 'inconvenient' to some because of raising such urgent issues.

The United States used to have the "draft." This is conscription.
Eric C. >forcing anyone to do something against their will is illegal
You always drive over speed limits, or run red lights when no-one's coming? Don't pay your state or federal income tax? Steal stuff instead of paying for it? Or is it your will that you comply with all the laws of the land? What if they reinstitute the draft here?

Originally Posted by chaika

The United States used to have the "draft." This is conscription.
Eric C. >forcing anyone to do something against their will is illegal
You always drive over speed limits, or run red lights when no-one's coming? Don't pay your state or federal income tax? Steal stuff instead of paying for it? Or is it your will that you comply with all the laws of the land? What if they reinstitute the draft here?

Okay, let me restate it in a clearer way: no one has a right to tell anyone what profession to choose, and/or trap someone in some place and keep him/her there against his/her will. I hope at least with that you agree?!!

Eric, they are not forced into a profession! They have to spend about a year serving their country, protecting it. After that, they have done their duty and can go to university or get any job they want. While they are in the military they are taken care of and can travel, eat and live for free, so they have almost no expenses.

In Sweden we say that women carry a baby for nine months; men to military service for a 9-12 months. Not a big deal whatsoever and many guys enjoy it. Those who really don't want to do it can usually get out of it by faking an illness or pretending to be gay. If you are a pacifist you can drive an ambulance, be a hospital helper or something like that.

In Israel for example, everyone, man or woman has to do it for 2-3 years! Most Asian countries have military service and many countries in Europe. It's part of life but hopefully sometime in the future it will no longer be needed.

The only problem is if, like in Russia, people die why doing it - due to bullying; that should be investigated and stopped.

Eric,
This is a common practice thru out the world for people to have a mandatory term of service in the military.
Military service - Citizendia
The US had this as early as Vietnam.

Originally Posted by Nerms

Eric,
This is a common practice thru out the world for people to have a mandatory term of service in the military.
Military service - Citizendia
The US had this as early as Vietnam.

Yep, I know it. But many of present democratic countries formerly used to burn people for their opinions. I think we need to move on sometimes, and the humanity has outgrown such things as "draft".

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Yep, I know it. But many of present democratic countries formerly used to burn people for their opinions. I think we need to move on sometimes, and the humanity has outgrown such things as "draft".

I don't think humanity will ever outgrow this thing. Even some of that 'democratic' coutries still have drafts and that situation is not making anyone unhappy. In Russia, there are hundred and one way to avoid military service if you really don't want to serve. Moreover, not every country can afford a professional army where you have to pay people for the service. This is VERY expensive.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Yep, I know it. But many of present democratic countries formerly used to burn people for their opinions. I think we need to move on sometimes, and the humanity has outgrown such things as "draft".

First you need to
1) Organise world peace and achieve stability at all borders
2) Find out a way of convincing leaders of all countries that there is not going to be any more war against their country.

May I suggest that you start by campaigning for withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan and Iraq. As an American voter and citizen that's an area where you might be able to make a small difference. Next, campaign for the US withdraw it's bases from places like Korea and Europe. Next, try to find a solution to the Israel question... Putting missiles anywhere along the border of Russia is definitely not a good way to make them feel that it's safe to reduce the army. But right now that is what the US is proposing.

If you can tackle all those problems. then after that you can raise the question of dropping conscription again.

Originally Posted by Hanna

First you need to
1) Organise world peace and achieve stability at all borders
2) Find out a way of convincing leaders of all countries that there is not going to be any more war against their country.

May I suggest that you start by campaigning for withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan and Iraq. As an American voter and citizen that's an area where you might be able to make a small difference. Next, campaign for the US withdraw it's bases from places like Korea and Europe. Next, try to find a solution to the Israel question... Putting missiles anywhere along the border of Russia is definitely not a good way to make them feel that it's safe to reduce the army. But right now that is what the US is proposing.

If you can tackle all those problems. then after that you can raise the question of dropping conscription again.

Just in case I would remind you that I'm not against the army per se, I agree almost every country needs it. I'm against conscription and I believe the army should be professional and consist of those who wish to serve. Forcing someone to serve in the army against his will is a torture for both the man and the army (at the respective scale). Having no wish to serve, the man will only aim to get away from his service and get out of the army as soon as possible. Just imagine, for instance, what that would look like, if everyone was forced to become a doctor for a year. I guess hospitals would drown in patients' suits.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Just imagine, for instance, what that would look like, if everyone was forced to become a doctor for a year. I guess hospitals would drown in patients' suits.

The analogy is not exactly right. It's more like forcing everyone to take medical training for a year, in case we'll need a lot of doctors in future. Most of these guys don't do anything useful or potentially harmful (like protecting the borders or guarding arsenals), and a lot of regiments are based in the cities, so they just learn military-related stuff.

There are a few sad exceptions, though, when recruits had to paticipate in real action (Afganistan, Chechnya). I don't know about Chechnya, but with Afganistan these 18-19 year olds didn't even know they were going to war, until they got there.

First you need to
1) Organise world peace and achieve stability at all borders
2) Find out a way of convincing leaders of all countries that there is not going to be any more war against their country.

May I suggest that you start by campaigning for withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan and Iraq. As an American voter and citizen that's an area where you can make a difference. Next, campaign for the US withdraw it's bases from places like Korea and Europe. Next, try to find a solution to the Israel question.

We have the longest land border and we need someone to guard it. Especially our south -- to block drug caravans bound for central Russia and Europe. This is not because of missiles (ordinary soldiers won't help in the next world war if it happens). Still, I think that the army size can be reduced at least by half. I cannot imagine modern warfare of such a large scale as it was in WW2 when the frontline spanned several thousand kilometers.