Thread: Death penalty for Metro bombers in Belarus

I agree with Eric, that there are doubts if they are really guilty.

Originally Posted by Ramil

I would use denial of all rights (including the so called 'human rights') to them and sentence to an life-long imprisonment in a pigpen (pigs would be offended, of course, but who cares about pigs).

South Park- strawberry shortcake - YouTube

Every state has the right to keep its own laws. If somebody has doubts whether those guys are guilty or not they should ask for reconsidering the court case in a supreme court but not to rewrite laws. Request to rewrite laws for the one specific case looks like admission of the guilt and asking for a more indulgent punishment.

I personally oppose death penalty worldwide. The world community should ask for rejecting death penalty other countries (all the countries but not the only one which is subjected to political pressure) but it should be done irrespectively to any specific court case.

As for sterilization it is an instrument to avoid undesirable pregnancy for a possible further victim. It is not a punishment at all.

Concerning the "criminality gen" I personally think it works vice versa. It is not the descendants who can commit crime but it is the ancestors who brought up and educated the criminal and they should be punished as well.

I guess I'm one of the very few barbarians here who support the idea of capital punishment. According to statistics at least half of people in Ukraine think the same - with numbers of supporters sometimes as high as 85%, depending on the poll.

It's worth mentioning that some people vote against it because they think that the criminal should suffer longer, and some even weirder people vote for it because they think that it's a kinder and easier way out. It muddles the matter further.

The only reasonable argument against capital punishment, in my opinion, is a danger of executing an innocent person. But there are various safety measures which can help to avoid that, one of them is a mandatory period of time (years and years, if need be) between the court decision and an actual execution, which can be used to check and recheck everything to be absolutely sure.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

The only reasonable argument against capital punishment, in my opinion, is a danger of executing an innocent person. But there are various safety measures which can help to avoid that, one of them is a mandatory period of time (years and years, if need be) between the court decision and an actual execution, which can be used to check and recheck everything to be absolutely sure.

Watch The Green Mile

remorse

Originally Posted by Doomer

Watch The Green Mile

I've seen it. So?
It just means that more efforts should be put into building better investigation and court systems to eliminate mistakes like this. Death sentences should not be given lightly, it's a serious matter. But I do not mind if there's a possibility of capital punishment in some rare cases (which does not mean that I'm for killing people left and right).

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

I guess I'm one of the very few barbarians here who support the idea of capital punishment.

I certainly would not call you a barbarian and I am sure you know that!!
Your opinions seem to be well founded and well balanced..
I think people's view on these sort of issues are influenced by the kind of environment they grew up in, to some degree. You and I probably come at this issue from quite a different angle. If I had your experience I might hold the same view as you, and vice versa.

I watched a terrible film once (back in school) that followed a black man in the USA who was sentenced for a murder which he said from the start that he did not commit. He was guilty of some other crimes though, like robberies etc. He was sentenced to death, appealed etc. Became a born-again Christian etc, but the sentence stood. Eventually he was executed in the electric chair and they practically showed the whole execution on the film. Really gruesome. Some of the victims relatives were actually allowed to be there while the man was being executed. Later, it turned out that the man probably did not commit the crime.

The religious view on this would be "let him who is free of sin throw the first stone", and "thou shalt not kill".
If the person is imprisoned for life, he can work and do some good, paying off his debt to society. And if it should turn out that a mistake was committed, the person can be released and compensated.

I agree with gRomoZeka, I think -- at least, I am not morally opposed to the death penalty for murderers (and in some cases, the co-conspirators of murderers). However, I would generally oppose the death penalty for drug dealers and serial rapists and pedophiles and others who may cause great harm, but do not actually kill their victims.

But even though I think it may be morally acceptable and fully civilized for the state to execute murderers, I think that civilized countries should generally regard the death penalty with distaste -- something that should be avoided whenever possible.

The main justification for capital punishment is that if one takes the alternative route -- сажать убийц в тюрьму пожизнено ("to imprison murderers for life") -- then there is a possibility that the killer may take another life. Possibly the life of another prisoner who was in jail for a less violent offense and might have been rehabilitated, or possibly the life of an honest prison guard. He might even escape from prison and kill completely innocent people.

Thus, as the Catholic church argues, capital punishment may possibly be justified in poor countries where the prison system is in shambles and there is a serious danger that a murder will be able to kill again if he is not executed ASAP. But the more advanced and wealthy a country is, and the more secure its prisons are, the less this justification applies.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Watch The Green Mile

I've seen it. So?

Off-topic, but for those who've seen The Green Mile, do you think that John Coffey is meant to be understood as the Son of God visiting Earth again, this time in the body of a semi-retarded black guy (instead of a Jewish cabinet-maker)? Or is he merely some sort of mysterious saint/healer, but not Jesus Christ himself?

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Off-topic, but for those who've seen The Green Mile, do you think that John Coffey is meant to be understood as the Son of God visiting Earth again, this time in the body of a semi-retarded black guy (instead of a Jewish cabinet-maker)? Or is he merely some sort of mysterious saint/healer, but not Jesus Christ himself?

Hmmm interesting. I had not even heard of that film. Well nobody who's read the bible would think that this guy was Jesus. Because that's not how it's supposed to play out according to the book of revelations. If Jesus turned up as a black guy etc it would be a serious deviation from "the plan"! Oh well, I always spoil perfectly good fiction for myself by getting hung up on details like this .

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Off-topic, but for those who've seen The Green Mile, do you think that John Coffey is meant to be understood as the Son of God visiting Earth again, this time in the body of a semi-retarded black guy (instead of a Jewish cabinet-maker)? Or is he merely some sort of mysterious saint/healer, but not Jesus Christ himself?

I think it's a very apt analogy. And Hanna, I have read the bible many times. I was raised in a strict religion. Happily free of it now!

Perhaps not everyone here understands the purpose of death penalty. It's only partly a punishment, but its main purpose - to serve as an example to the others. The state exercises its ultimate power here to make a point. I'm not going to argue about whether it is productive or not, but say what you will - it IS working in some countries.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Perhaps not everyone here understands the purpose of death penalty. It's only partly a punishment, but its main purpose - to serve as an example to the others.

There are different ways to force people to do the "right" things and not to do the "wrong" ones. First one is threatening them (with death penalties for example) while another one is taking care of their education and bringing up during the childhood. If a society keeps away of bringing up the only thing to hold people in a "herd" is threatening them but is it the best way which your children should stay along with?

Originally Posted by CoffeeCup

There are different ways to force people to do the "right" things and not to do the "wrong" ones. First one is threatening them (with death penalties for example) while another one is taking care of their education and bringing up during the childhood.

Yeah, call me a pessimist, but an 'intelligent ape' would not behave if you don't beat it with a stick from time to time.

Originally Posted by CoffeeCup

If a society keeps away of bringing up the only thing to hold people in a "herd" is threatening them but is it the best way which your children should stay along with?

One day people would stop commiting crimes... oh well, one day cows will fly too.

Death penalty is absolutely nonsense , absurd... how can anyone consider this "justice" ? And , about EU , it is total HYPOCRISY...

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

remorse
I've seen it. So?
It just means that more efforts should be put into building better investigation and court systems to eliminate mistakes like this. Death sentences should not be given lightly, it's a serious matter. But I do not mind if there's a possibility of capital punishment in some rare cases (which does not mean that I'm for killing people left and right).

So, you do believe that is is possible to create a perfect investigation and court system which makes no mistakes
But apparently you don't believe in creation of perfect society where death penalty is archaic and makes no sense?

I've sensed double standards here

Originally Posted by Ramil

Perhaps not everyone here understands the purpose of death penalty. It's only partly a punishment, but its main purpose - to serve as an example to the others.

Yeah - that's the reason why I was saying in another thread that it would be EFFICIENT as a deterrent for drug dealing and pushing.

But on principle I think the actual act of killing another living person is morally wrong - for any reason.. Regardless of whether it is the state or anyone else doing the killing.

It's a really hard question.

Does anyone know whether the Belarussian Metro bombers can appeal etc? Or is that it?
How to they execute people in Belarus?

I have been taking Belarus' position in several debates here, because I think that Belarus is misrepresented in Western media. But on this one I am NOT taking their position!

Originally Posted by Hanna

Yeah - that's the reason why I was saying in another thread that it would be EFFICIENT as a deterrent for drug dealing and pushing.

But on principle I think the actual act of killing another living person is morally wrong - for any reason..

Why? Only because 'thou shalt not kill' thing? What's morality? A system of views commonly accepted among the society members. It can be very flexible sometimes. In some African tribes cannibalism is perfectly moral. Eutanasia is moral according to the laws of some most humane countries. Morality is an empty thing compared to necessity.
Watch this movie (click on the pic for the IMDB entry):


This movie perfectly illustrates my point. Watch it.

Originally Posted by Doomer

So, you do believe that is is possible to create a perfect investigation and court system which makes no mistakes
But apparently you don't believe in creation of perfect society where death penalty is archaic and makes no sense?

I've sensed double standards here

I've never uttered the word "perfect". Both goals are impossible, but the second one is even impossibl-er, since it's much more global and complex.

Anyway, mistakes've been made and will be made in the future. Will you propose not to incarcerate people at all, because innocents can be sent to prison by mistake? I guess not (if we are talking about real, and not an utopian society). Double standards, eh?

Offtopic:

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

impossibl-er

I loved that word. I really loved it.