Crimea joining the Russian Federation and its implications?

Apparently Crimea's parliament voted to join the Russian Federation, and this will be ratified/ voted on in a local referendum in Crimea on 16 March.

I guess we can assume that the population will stand behind this suggestion (correct me if this is wrong!)

The question is: What on earth will Russia do about this?!

What are the possible scenarios for this?

• For South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Pridnestrovie Russia has NOT annexed them, even if they probably wouldn't have minded (not sure what the situation is...)
• So what would be different about this, if anything?
• The propaganda war against Russia is overwhelming at the moment. Will this affect Russia's response?
• Could Russia just reject their request to join the federation?
• How much would it upset the new Ukrainian government, regular people in Ukraine and the West?
• Could this lead to war?

What does Russian media think and

What do people here think?

Russia will ensure the necessary result of the referendum and than Crimean status will be pending for the observable future. That would allow to ignore the necessity of thorough simulation of many aspects of social functioning in Crimea. Putin believes that Russia does not need more of Russia, but Russian militaries need one more offshore colony with no control from any legislation, strong society or even civil buerocracy. So Russian military and government elite will do there what can make problems to do in Moscow while local population will be given some financial support for good behavior and allowed to go on with their private lives.

I think everybody is shocked, more or less. It seems that Russia wants to have more pieces on the table to get out stronger from the subsequent negotiations. We don't know much at this point, but maybe to put more pressure on the EU/US with an option of separating the East Region. As you know, there could be no open discussion about that option in Ukraine as an open attept for that kind of free speech is illegal in the free and fully democratic Ukraine. The Security officers put in custody those who dare to openly speak about that. For example: Задержан лидер пророссийских активистов Донецка Губарев - BBC Russian - Лента новостей

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Задержан лидер пророссийских активистов Донецка Губарев - BBC Russian - Лента новостей

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Oh, that is the guy, who headed assault on the Donetsk Regional Administration, beaten and thrown out clerks and was sitting few days in that building saying that he is the authority.
Attachment 940
Lenta.ru: Бывший ССС

His real problem is that he went against Akhmetov, the richest man in Ukraine and REAL Donetsk power.

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For South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Pridnestrovie Russia has NOT annexed them, even if they probably wouldn't have minded (not sure what the situation is...)
So what would be different about this, if anything?

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Sure enough, Crimea will become a part the Russian Federation.

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The propaganda war against Russia is overwhelming at the moment. Will this affect Russia's response?

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Certainly, the wording “in response” will be rather strong but not that aggressive as you can imagine.

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Could Russia just reject their request to join the federation?

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Are you kidding?

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How much would it upset the new Ukrainian government, regular people in Ukraine and the West?

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They will have to put up with the fait accompli in the long run. Khrushchev giveth, Putin taketh away.

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Could this lead to war?

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Only in case the USA should make such a snap decision as to send its troops to Ucraine=@

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

His real problem is that he went against Akhmetov, the richest man in Ukraine and REAL Donetsk power.

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Let's do an experiment, shall we? If you insist the the Security does not care about those who calls on the locals to set a referendum, could you make a huge sign on your door and balcony asking for the local referendum? Referendum can't be that bad, right? You're not a threat to any "аллигарх", so that should be ok. :)

Usually, when a person is a threat to anybody in power, they 'make him a criminal', by slipping in drugs or something like that, then arresting him and beating the proof out of him during the investigation.

If you go on insisting the security does not care about expressing their opinion in public, I can provide more: [url=http://dumskaya.net/news/sbu-predupredila-prorossijskih-aktivistov-odessy-033327/]СБУ

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Originally Posted by diogen_

Sure enough, Crimea will become a part the Russian Federation.



Certainly, the wording “in response” will be rather strong but not that aggressive as you can imagine.



Are you kidding?



They will have to put up with the fait accompli in the long run. Khrushchev giveth, Putin taketh away.



Only in case the USA should make such a snap decision as to send its troops to Ucraine=@

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Super helpful responses, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Apparently the USA has sent a war ship to the Black Sea. I expect they don't come there very often... or?

As far as I know, such ships are usually only deployed to make a statement.
However they HAVE been used for real, for example in the Gulf Wars.

I can see a scenario where the USA claims they want to "deploy peacekeepers" in Crimea, or something like that to. Although I doubt they would get anywhere near the shores of Crimea if the Russian navy base has anything to say about it....

In the Cold War there was usually stalemate most of the time. But right now, anything can happen. And Crimea is definitely a Queen on the chessboard. Or at least a tower.

I am so upset on behalf of the Ukrainians. All of this must be intolerable.
They have good reasons and every right to be suspicious of Russia. On the other hand, their entire capital is smashed up. *Somebody* orderered the shooting of civilians with sniper rifles. Some yobs are in power who might very well be extreme nationalists, possibly Nazis, and the whole country is about to get into the clutches of the IMF, Washington and Brussels. The poor will get poorer and everything more expensive while everyone helps themselves to anything that's worth any money internationally.

Hard to blame those who resign and think "sod all this, I can't take any more, my grandmother was Russian so just give me a f-ing Russian passport".

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

His real problem is that he went against Akhmetov, the richest man in Ukraine and REAL Donetsk power.

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Never heard of him but I'll take a wild guess that he is a crook and very corrupt. What's going on with the Imperial uniform? Akhmetov, some kind of Muslim or something? Is he Russian or what?

I'll read the article, but it will take me a while... :)

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Khrushchev giveth, Putin taketh away.

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Yes indeed - seems to have been quite a trend with Soviet l eaders, to give Russian land to other Soviet republics!!!

I never knew that this had happened at all, anywhere until recently. I always assumed the Soviet republics were based on actual ethnic groups or traditional borders.

One comment on that referendum:

Options seem to be:

Join Russian Federation
Stay in Ukraine

Wouldn't it be good to have an option for "Independence", or "Wait and decide later" or something?

Or do you think it's better to just be done with it and get a clear yes or no.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Stay in Ukraine

Wouldn't it be good to have an option for "Independence", or "Wait and decide later" or something?

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That's wrong information.
The second question is "Crimea gets back to the Constitution of 1992". In fact, it's kinda independence. Ukrainian Nazis (under second president of Ukraine, mr. Kuchma) trampled Crimea's law and the Constitution of 1992 was abrogated. Also, Ukrainian Government ignored results of the referendum of 1991, when the people of Crimea voted for federal status of Crimea.
So, current situation around Crimea (from the direction of Ukraine) is illegal and all this shit is just a result of ignoring the people's wills. The people of Crimea wants to be associated with Russia (no matter in what form).

Crimea will stay with Russia I predict.

Ukrainian Warship Defects To Russia - Business Insider

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Originally Posted by DDT

Crimea will stay with Russia I predict.

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It might be, but I think there's still slim chances that won't happen and Crimea will become an independent republic. The possible annexation of Crimea by Russia could just as well serve the 'goat' in the subsequent negotiations between Russia, EU and the US. In a way similar to: "Oh, you don't like to extend the autonomy of Crimea calling it the annexation? Ok, let's take a course to the annexation so that you will be happy when we step back to the Crimea becoming independent."

The term 'goat' comes from an old Jewish-Hassidic joke which describes a poor man coming to a Rebe and asking for an advice:

- Rebe, I am so poor and I have many children and live in a small place, there is no space for everybody, so what should I do?
- Do you have a goat?
- Yes, Rebe.
- Ok, take the goat into your house and make it live with you in the house. Come back to me after a week.

After a week the poor guy comes back to Rebe who asks:

- So, how do you do?
- Oh, Rebe, now it is truly terrible with the goat at home, there's no space at all.
- Ok, now take the goat back to the yard and come back to me after a week.

After a week a happy poor guy comes to Rebe and thanks him for his advice:

- Thank you very much, Rebe! Now, my house became much more spacious!

Well who can blame the Crimeans for wanting to avoid crazy nationalists from Kiev, speak their own language and least but not last, some Russian oil money raining over them from Moscow....

Seems Russia has picked up on the fact that it probably doesn't matter if everyone and their dog in Crimea votes "Yes" , the referendum will be called illegal whatever happens.

And that means Crimea is stuck in limbo, or Russia will have to become the number 1 American (and European too) hate object, beating Iran and North Korea, even....

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Akhmetov, some kind of Muslim or something? Is he Russian or what?

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His nationality is “unspecified”. My best guess he is ½ Jew, ¼ Tatar, ¼ Russian or something even more convoluted.

_http://finance.bigmir.net/budget/32752-Tatarin-Ahmetov-popal-v-TOP-samyh-bogatyh-evreev

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

It might be, but I think there's still slim chances that won't happen and Crimea will become an independent republic.

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But... an independent Crimea could vote to join NATO and lease Black Sea bases to the US Navy, right? I'm not sure whether it's likely that Crimeans would actually vote that way, but in principle they could -- so would Russia take that risk? Or are you saying that Russia would recognize Crimea's independence only on the condition that Crimea agreed не спать с ВМСами США?

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

but in principle they could

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Based on what I know, presently the vast majority of Crimeans would prefer Russian military to any other military. There's been long history of the military presense of Russians in Crimea. After a few generations, the Crimean Tatars would probaly make the majority of Crimeans, and the Crimean Tatars strongly associate themselves with Turkey. So, if in the future Turkey would still be a NATO member (and there still will be NATO), then yes. :)

The main reason Crimea would want to join Russian Federation is fear. The fear that one day their capital would be visited by yet another "friendship train" now armed with the weaponry taken from seized arsenals of Ukrainian police forces and stomp their hopes for autonomy privileges to the ground.
I understand their disbelief towards Kiev. The brigands who recently have risen to power via violence and deception now try to teach them about what is legitimate and what isn't. It's actually even hard to take seriously.

First, I consider the interim government in Kiev as illegitimate since the Russian speaking Ukrainians were not included. Also, Crimea has the right to self-determination. I mean, Crimea was part of Russia since the time of Catherine the Great and when Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 it wall all part of the USSR. Anyway, I think Crimea would have a better future with Russia and joining the Russian Federation would protect them from NATO and the US. And yeah, President Putin and the Russian parliament would be very happy to accept Crimea as part of Russia.
Btw, I stopped reading western media when the crisis got ugly. It's full of anti-Russian propaganda. Does anyone know what's up with Rossiyskaya Gazeta? When I click the link all I get is something about the site being hacked into. I hope they get back online soon.

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Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Btw, I stopped reading western media when the crisis got ugly. It's full of anti-Russian propaganda.

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No kidding... driving me nuts!

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Originally Posted by Amy6710

No kidding... driving me nuts!

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I can't get over this madness whereby if you want a half way realistic news program about current events / international politics, you have to turn to RUSSIAN media. I know they don't openly criticise Putin at RT or Rossiya 24, but you can turn with confidence to any other international publication for that, so it's not a problem as far as I am concernèd. Or at least, there is a workaround..... Who, alive in 1985 would ever have seen this coming?

RT is better and more innovative and independent journalism than you can get in any British, European or American news channel these days. "Breaking the set" never even mentions Russia, but it would NEVER make it on any other channel.

I don't necessarily WANT to watch RT or Russia 24 and I am definitely no massive fan of Putin, but I can't bear being lied to by corporate media, or even worse, by the BBC or other European state TV, using our actual licence money to manipulate us. As long as RT remains the most truthful international news channel, I will watch it.

Until some native Western European media starts doing balanced reporting, and stops serving US and local corporate interests I guess I am stuck with Russian news channels. And media is getting worse, not better so it will be a while...

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Does anyone know what's up with Rossiyskaya Gazeta? When I click the link all I get is something about the site being hacked into. I hope they get back online soon.

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There were reports about massive DoS attacks at Russian news sites.

I bet some ignominiously disgraceful Ukrainian hackers are those responsible for these outrageous instances of misdemeanor. The worst is over however, and, hopefully, right now you can get uninhibited access to the site with the link: http://www.rg.ru

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It might be, but I think there's still slim chances that won't happen and Crimea will become an independent republic.

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Russian Finance Minister Anton Siluanov said Monday that the regional budget of the Crimean government was running a 35 billion ruble ($1 billion) deficit and that Russia would develop a plan of financial aid for the region by the evening.

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Russia Revitalizes Project to Build Bridge to Crimea | World | RIA Novosti

Croc, how can they become independent with such a deficit?

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I can't get over this madness whereby if you want a half way realistic news program about current events / international politics, you have to turn to RUSSIAN media. I know they don't openly criticise Putin at RT or Rossiya 24, but you can turn with confidence to any other international publication for that, so it's not a problem as far as I am concernèd. Or at least, there is a workaround..... Who, alive in 1985 would ever have seen this coming?
RT is better and more innovative and independent journalism than you can get in any British, European or American news channel these days. "Breaking the set" never even mentions Russia, but it would NEVER make it on any other channel.
I don't necessarily WANT to watch RT or Russia 24 and I am definitely no massive fan of Putin, but I can't bear being lied to by corporate media, or even worse, by the BBC or other European state TV, using our actual licence money to manipulate us. As long as RT remains the most truthful international news channel, I will watch it.
Until some native Western European media starts doing balanced reporting, and stops serving US and local corporate interests I guess I am stuck with Russian news channels. And media is getting worse, not better so it will be a while...

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RT, Российская газета, and Pravda always have more logical news feeds but I still like to read all sides of any issue. My Russian isn't good enough yet to listen to Russia 24 - even if I do recognize some of the spoken words and phrases - but I will include that too when my Russian improves.
For news on Ukraine, I've been using RT, Российская газета, Pravda, Christian Science Monitor, Washington post, New York Times, and Reuters mostly. Then I decide what makes sense and what doesn't. But it's very difficult to find any useful news or logic in the US news sources right now. Also, I get a lot of misinformation and bad feedback from my US friends but that's cool. I know what I know and that can't change. It would not hurt the US if Ukrainian opposition did or didn't win so I don't consider it that important here. Imo, it's only important to Russia and Ukraine. But I do respect the strong Russian-Ukrainian ties and Crimea's right to self-determination. I don't get how anyone can be American and not believe in self-determination.
Btw, I'm not a massive fan of Putin either. But if I was a Russian, I know I would vote for him. He's amazing!

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Originally Posted by diogen_

There were reports about massive DoS attacks at Russian news sites.
I bet some ignominiously disgraceful Ukrainian hackers are those responsible for these outrageous instances of misdemeanor. The worst is over however, and, hopefully, right now you can get uninhibited access to the site with the link: http://www.rg.ru

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Thanks! :mrgreen: It's finally back online, yay!

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Originally Posted by diogen_

Russia Revitalizes Project to Build Bridge to Crimea | World | RIA Novosti
Croc, how can they become independent with such a deficit?

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Thanks for the heads up on the new bridge! :mrgreen: I'll be watching for more news about that.

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/matve...1_original.jpg

I declare the oncoming referendum in Crimea illegitimate, because it defies the international law!

If separating a region via a referendum defies the international law, we're reclaiming the former USSR borders.

Oh no, Baldy is using Obama pics.... hide, hide....

1) Seriously, who is responsible for the referendum wording and questions? Who decides how it's worded and what the questions are?

2) it was carefully crafted to make sure that there was no 'status quo' option. Yes, probably only the Tatars want that or the few Ukrainianian nationalists who are brainwashed, themselves (the opposite of the brainwash machine by the Kremlin) to reach out to the US and UN minions but still.... fair is fair.

Well, you lose again with the truth and most logical points presented... За твоё здоровье!

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Originally Posted by 14Russian

Oh no, Baldy is using Obama pics.... hide, hide....

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You didn't get the joke, did you? :)

Some of the references to "Ukrainian Nazis" in this thread are unfortunate, given the clear similarity between Russia's attempt to annex Crimea and Hitler's Anschluss with Austria. Professor Zubov described this recently in Vedomosti:

«Нам надо опомниться и остановиться. Наши политики втягивают наш народ в страшную, в ужасающую авантюру. Исторический опыт говорит, что ничего не обойдется так. Мы не должны вестись, как повелись в свое время немцы на посулы Геббельса и Гитлера. Ради мира в нашей стране, ради ее действительного возрождения, ради мира и настоящей дружественности на пространствах России исторической, разделенной ныне на многие государства, скажем «нет» этой безумной и, главное, совершенно ненужной агрессии»

Then, in a rather unpleasant confirmation of the threat he was describing, Zubov was sacked for expressing his opinion. This is just the latest in a series of incidents hacking away at free speech in Russia - think of the fate of Dozhd, think of the ludicrous internet ban for Navalny. How long will it be until Russia holds her own answer to Kristallnacht?

Russians - you are better than this. You deserve better.

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Originally Posted by edvalais

Then, in a rather unpleasant confirmation of the threat he was describing, Zubov was sacked for expressing his opinion. This is just the latest in a series of incidents hacking away at free speech in Russia - think of the fate of Dozhd, think of the ludicrous internet ban for Navalny. How long will it be until Russia holds her own answer to Kristallnacht?

Russians - you are better than this. You deserve better.

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Do you know why Kharkov's ex-governor Dobkin is put under home arrest? Why Kharkov's mayor Kernes is put under home arrest?

I didn't know about this, SergeMak, but I've looked it up online. The only sensible reply that I can give is that I object to people being wrongly arrested. If this has happened in this case, then I deplore it. I believe in the rule of law and human rights - ask yourself whether these exist in Russia (or Ukraine).

The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that some Russians invoke the "fascist" threat in Ukraine, while backing action which , in my opinion, is reminiscent of fascist Germany.

Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany. смутные времена!!!

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Originally Posted by edvalais

I didn't know about this, SergeMak, but I've looked it up online. The only sensible reply that I can give is that I object to people being wrongly arrested. If this has happened in this case, then I deplore it. I believe in the rule of law and human rights - ask yourself whether these exist in Russia (or Ukraine).

The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that some Russians invoke the "fascist" threat in Ukraine, while backing action which , in my opinion, is reminiscent of fascist Germany.

Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany. смутные времена!!!

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They were arrested for their speeches about possibility of federalization of Ukraine which maybe the only way to prevent a break up of the country. Dobkin was going to take part in presidential elections and his arrest is a means of eliminating a candidate who has a strong backing from people from the Eastern part of the country. So as you can see the methods of the new Kiev's power are quite undemocratic not to mention about their alliance with odious "Right sector" and their indulgence to brigandish actions of some armed groups from the Maidan.
And you are wrong that no Russian criticizes Russia on this forum. I don't do this in this branch of the forum, because this branch is devoted to the situation in Ukraine. You can read a lot of critics towards Russia in another branch of the forum, devoted to discussing democracy in Russia.
There is another consideration about self-critics. The events in Ukraine showed to Russian people what horrible things unbridled protests can lead to. Suddenly many people realized that it's better to have stability under authoritarian power than chaos of anarchy. So the Ukrainian Maidan actually delivered a very destructive blow on the movement of protest against authoritarism in Russia.

Actually professor Zubov was not sacked. Here is the proof http://grani.ru/Politics/Russia/m.226186.html

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Originally Posted by edvalais

Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany. смутные времена!!!

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Ed, I think you are sitting on some rather high horses here....!

Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?
What "dark forces" are you referring to, exactly? That's like saying Homeland Security came will come and get UhOhXplode and Deborski because they sometimes diss the USA. About as likely I would say. Or less, actually.

I don't think you used this site very long. Many Russians here are extremely critical of many things. Some people here are completely anti-establishment, in Russia and in general. Another thing is, there is a time and place to dish out the worst dirt on your country, and maybe it's in a forum for language learners. Have you checked Livejournal, the Russian sector?

Another thing to consider is that Putin actually has the majority's support, more or less, in Russia. So statistically most Russians here ought to more or less tolerate him. It's also the issue how you represent your country to strangers. Maybe you don't start with serving up all the dirt to begin with. The site is for people who want to learn about Russia.
Most of us already know the negatives, from media.

Serge, thanks for your reply. I'm British, so I know from the Northern Ireland troubles how destructive sectarian conflict can be. I'm old enough (48) to remember hearing IRA bombs explode in London. Is the Ukraine a very complicated problem? - you bet! But I don't think that the referendum this weekend is going to help. I can also add that Putin's record on "fair and honest" elections isn't very impressive. Re Zubov's sacking/firing, here is what he told Slon:

– Как вам сообщили об увольнении?

– Самым обычным образом. Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. И на завтра я вызван к проректору, видимо, по этому вопросу.

– И вам пояснили, что увольнение связано с вашей заметкой в «Ведомостях»?

– Это мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно.

Hanna - you ask: "Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?" Have a look at the thread on the Sochi Olympics where one Russian here says - and he insists he's serious - that he would like all information in the media to be controlled by the people in power. So yes, I would say some Russians ARE brainwashed - or, worse, would want to be. Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes. The word I would use to describe Russians' reaction to the clear-cut corruption in their country is "apathy". They don't care - as long as it doesn't affect them personally. My point is that it will eventually affect them. If the turmoil in Ukraine shows anything, it is that politics and the kind of politicians who run a country can make a direct difference to individuals and families.

As for your point that this is a "forum for language learners", well, this is a thread in a section about "politics", therefore I decided to contribute to it. There appears to be no purely linguistic element in it. If, for some incredible reason, my Russian friends take issue with what I've written, they are of course free to say so, unless the Duma has passed another law to inhibit free speech - so there! (I love you really.)

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Originally Posted by edvalais

Hanna - you ask: "Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?" Have a look at the thread on the Sochi Olympics where one Russian here says - and he insists he's serious - that he would like all information in the media to be controlled by the people in power. So yes, I would say some Russians ARE brainwashed - or, worse, would want to be. Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes. The word I would use to describe Russians' reaction to the clear-cut corruption in their country is "apathy". They don't care - as long as it doesn't affect them personally. My point is that it will eventually affect them. If the turmoil in Ukraine shows anything, it is that politics and the kind of politicians who run a country can make a direct difference to individuals and families.

As for your point that this is a "forum for language learners", well, this is a thread in a section about "politics", therefore I decided to contribute to it. There appears to be no purely linguistic element in it. If, for some incredible reason, my Russian friends take issue with what I've written, they are of course free to say so, unless the Duma has passed another law to inhibit free speech - so there! (I love you really.)

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Well, Russia has a different experience and view on some of the phenomenons you discuss.
I don't support the idea that anything Western is necessarily better. Better in the West, maybe. But better for Russia? That's for the Russians to decide. I don't care and it's not my business.

Plus governing Russia is completely different challenge than even the UK. Can't apply the same logic - besides, how democratic is the UK really, if you sincerely think about it. Two near identical parties, and plenty of stuff going on that everyone knows the majority wouldn't agree with, if they had any real influence.

I agree with your view of Russian apathy about corruption. But it's easy for me to judge it, or get worked up, coming from one of the least corrupt countries in the world. I try not to, even if it disgusts me.

Not super interested in Olympics so I didn't read the thread, but it more or less worked pretty well and no terrorist attack, so I guess it's a success.

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Originally Posted by 14Russian

Oh no, Baldy is using Obama pics.... hide, hide....
1) Seriously, who is responsible for the referendum wording and questions? Who decides how it's worded and what the questions are?
2) it was carefully crafted to make sure that there was no 'status quo' option. Yes, probably only the Tatars want that or the few Ukrainianian nationalists who are brainwashed, themselves (the opposite of the brainwash machine by the Kremlin) to reach out to the US and UN minions but still.... fair is fair.
Well, you lose again with the truth and most logical points presented... За твоё здоровье!

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I don't know which was finnier. The picture or your reaction, LMAO!

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Originally Posted by edvalais

Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany. смутные времена!!!

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Tbh, I've never seen anything deleted (censored) here that wasn't irrationally hostile or disrespectful. Btw, I read an article yesterday in Nezavisimaya Gazeta that wasn't very flattering to President Putin or the State Duma. The author was speaking out for equality and human rights in Russia. No, I honestly don't see the Russian people as being brainwashed and I don't believe they're any more apathetic than Americans. There are people in both countries that get disgusted with government or just don't care.

But sometimes people are so concerned with the differences between 2 countries that they can't see the similarities. Russia and the US are strong allies with strong economic ties. And no, I wouldn't feel any more threatened or restricted living in Russia than I do living in the US. Have you seen the list of the 50 most dangerous cities in the world in 2013? There are 4 US cities in that list but no Russian cities are listed. From Business Insider:
Most Dangerous Cities In The World - Business Insider

And don't forget, allies are friends and friendship is based on mutual respect and understanding. My 2 favorite countries on the European continent are Russia and France and I wouldn't want to change either one.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

What "dark forces" are you referring to, exactly? That's like saying Homeland Security came will come and get UhOhXplode and Deborski because they sometimes diss the USA. About as likely I would say. Or less, actually.
Another thing to consider is that Putin actually has the majority's support, more or less, in Russia. So statistically most Russians here ought to more or less tolerate him.

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LOL! It's always a possibility that anyone that speaks out too much could be picked up by Homeland Security. I mean, they already know how often we brush our teeth and they can detain US citizens indefinitely without a trial. So yeah, I really don't believe it could be any worse in Russia. Anyway, I think it's very interesting that our country hates what it calls "dictators" and also hates people that speak out against things the government does - I think that's called a double standard, LOL!

@ the OP:
Russia has a lot invested in Crimea which, imo, gives them the right to get involved in the Ukrainian crisis. The US/EU won't lose anything if Crimea does join the Russian Federation... except maybe the possibility of building new NATO bases. Tbh, I don't really see Russia as any threat to the west so I think the NATO buildup needs to stop. The western powers already said they don't have "the appetite" for a military confrontation with Moscow.

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But despite NATO reconnaissance aircraft patrolling the Polish and Romanian borders and U.S. naval forces preparing for exercises in the Black Sea, Western powers have made clear that, as when ex-Soviet Georgia lost territory in fighting in 2008, they have no appetite for risking turning the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War into a military conflict with Moscow.

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Ukraine forms new defense force, seeks Western help - chicagotribune.com

So why extend hostilities over something that's inevitable. Tbh, I don't think they will... at least, not for very long. The countries are already too dependent on each other economically to risk any serious sanctions. It's like dominoes - if one country falls so will the others. How many Senators wanna lose their new homes or yachts over something they can't change? Obviously not very many since the visa-bans had to be imposed by Executive Order. Obama wouldn't have done that if Congress was backing him up.
Anyway, here's the latest news I've seen on the Crimean situation:
West prepares sanctions as Russia presses on with Ukraine takeover - chicagotribune.com
http://www.rg.ru/2014/03/14/lavrov-site.html

It's Saturday and 04:38 in Moscow right now. The Referendum is only a day away.

EDIT:
Some more interesting news. Russia downed a US surveillance drone over Crimea:
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-in...180430584.html

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Originally Posted by edvalais

Professor Zubov.

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After listening his almost a hour long speech on "Эхо Москвы" I desided for myself that he is Novodvorskaya level "liberast" and not worth listening to. Gosh, he claimed that Bandera and Ukrainian Guerilla Army (ОУН-УПА) was good guys, just patriotic. He directly said that all atrocities and murders of УПА was НКВД provocations. Even Poles who have zero reasons to like or white-wash НКВД never say such bullsh1t.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

After listening his almost a hour long speech on "Эхо Москвы" I desided for myself that he is Novodvorskaya level "liberast" and not worth listening to. Gosh, he claimed that Bandera and Ukrainian Guerilla Army (ОУН-УПА) was good guys, just patriotic. He directly said that all atrocities and murders of УПА was НКВД provocations. Even Poles who have zero reasons to like or white-wash НКВД never say such bullsh1t.

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Мне бабка рассказывала - дед был военнослужащим, их часть стояла в конце 40-х где-то под Самбором, кажется, а она - учительница младших классов - там в школе и для местных и для детей офицеров. Так вот однажды в деревянный столб возле школы, по которому любили съезжать дети, обхватив руками, повтыкали какие-то лезвия и несколько детей располосовало руки до кости. А на следующее утро появился батальон НКВД, всех собрали, и агитаторы разъяснили, что это вредительствуют бандеровцы. Потом пошли по хатам, и кого-то повязали и увезли. С тех пор она и боялась бандеровцев. Нелюди же - в собственном селе, собственных детей не пожалели!

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

Мне бабка рассказывала - дед был военнослужащим, их часть стояла в конце 40-х где-то под Самбором, кажется, а она - учительница младших классов - там в школе и для местных и для детей офицеров. Так вот однажды в деревянный столб возле школы, по которому любили съезжать дети, обхватив руками, повтыкали какие-то лезвия и несколько детей располосовало руки до кости. А на следующее утро появился батальон НКВД, всех собрали, и агитаторы разъяснили, что это вредительствуют бандеровцы. Потом пошли по хатам, и кого-то повязали и увезли. С тех пор она и боялась бандеровцев. Нелюди же - в собственном селе, собственных детей не пожалели!

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Я тоже слышал много всяких историй, например как бандеровцы в 52м захватили школу во Львове, связали учителей и стали с живых срезать куски мяса и заставлять детей есть. То, что происходило на подконтрольной Союзу территории можно при желании всё списать на провокации НКВД. Но как объяснить резню на Волыни и в Галиции в 43-44гг.? Какой там мог быть к чёрту НКВД? Вы там от своего УкрТВ что совсем с "з глузду з'їхали", как говорит бабушка моей жены?

З.Ы. Ладно, хватит про ужасы. Вот лучше весёлая картинка в тему:

http://imgdisk.ru/images/Enrh.jpg

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Originally Posted by edvalais

Serge, thanks for your reply. I'm British, so I know from the Northern Ireland troubles how destructive sectarian conflict can be. I'm old enough (48) to remember hearing IRA bombs explode in London. Is the Ukraine a very complicated problem? - you bet! But I don't think that the referendum this weekend is going to help. I can also add that Putin's record on "fair and honest" elections isn't very impressive. Re Zubov's sacking/firing, here is what he told Slon:

– Как вам сообщили об увольнении?

– Самым обычным образом. Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. И на завтра я вызван к проректору, видимо, по этому вопросу.

– И вам пояснили, что увольнение связано с вашей заметкой в «Ведомостях»?

– Это мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно.

Hanna - you ask: "Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?" Have a look at the thread on the Sochi Olympics where one Russian here says - and he insists he's serious - that he would like all information in the media to be controlled by the people in power. So yes, I would say some Russians ARE brainwashed - or, worse, would want to be. Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes. The word I would use to describe Russians' reaction to the clear-cut corruption in their country is "apathy". They don't care - as long as it doesn't affect them personally. My point is that it will eventually affect them. If the turmoil in Ukraine shows anything, it is that politics and the kind of politicians who run a country can make a direct difference to individuals and families.

As for your point that this is a "forum for language learners", well, this is a thread in a section about "politics", therefore I decided to contribute to it. There appears to be no purely linguistic element in it. If, for some incredible reason, my Russian friends take issue with what I've written, they are of course free to say so, unless the Duma has passed another law to inhibit free speech - so there! (I love you really.)

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I'm also not too young, 45 soon and I served in Afghanistan so I can remember hearing explosions of jet-proppelled missiles and I still remember the sign "Made in USA" written on a stabilizer of one of them that luckily hadn't exploded. So tell your stories to someone else. Russian people know much better than you from the experience of two Chechen wars how destructive separatism can be.
As for Crimean affairs I don't see any ground for destructive protests of local people against joining RF. There is no language, religion or historical ground for it.
I say more. If the US had not poked their nose into inner Ukrainia bussiness if they hadn't finance Maidan, if they hadn't press toward inclusion Ukraine in NATO, there would be no separatism in Crimea at all.

Now, about Zubkov. I don't know the level of your Russian, but I can see it is not high enough to understand that there is no actual confirmation of his being sacked in your excerpt.
So let me translate it to you:

– Как вам сообщили об увольнении?
(-What way were you informed about your sacking?)

– Самым обычным образом. Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. И на завтра я вызван к проректору, видимо, по этому вопросу.
(-A very usual way. I was said to write an application to leave the service on my own will, or to wait till they will sack me according to an article in the law. I answered that I would write nothing myself, let them sack me the way they wish. And I am called to the prorector on tomorrow, apparently to discuss this matter.)

– И вам пояснили, что увольнение связано с вашей заметкой в «Ведомостях»?
(- Did they explain to you, that your sacking is connected with your article in "Vedomosti"?)

– Это мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно.
(- They said me starightforward that everything's about this article. But they didn't tell me any detail. Well, everybody understood everything).

So, as you see, the man, according to his own words was put under pressure, but for the moment when this interview was taken, his was not sacked yet. And he wasn't sacked later. Actually he wasn't sacked at all, wich was writen in my prooflink. Moreover, we know that the professor was put under pressure only from his own words. So, it's for you to decide whom to belive. I belive to the facts, and the facts say that he was not sacked.

I'm sorry to say it to you, but the rest of your post shows that it's you who is brainwashed.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

Я тоже слышал много всяких историй, например как бандеровцы в 52м захватили школу во Львове, связали учителей и стали с живых срезать куски мяса и заставлять детей есть. То, что происходило на подконтрольной Союзу территории можно при желании всё списать на провокации НКВД. Но как объяснить резню на Волыни и в Галиции в 43-44гг.? Какой там мог быть к чёрту НКВД? Вы там от своего УкрТВ что совсем с "з глузду з'їхали", как говорит бабушка моей жены?

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Ну я-то ТВ вообще никакое не смотрю - лет двадцать как. Разница между твоей и моей историей - что я свою получил из первых рук, и готовые выводы меня не устроили. И дети порезанные были вполне реальными - уж извини, но бабке своей я верю. Интересна твоя реакция - я тебе рассказываю историю без комментариев, а ты мне - "а у вас там негров линчуют". Я вроде как за резню на Волыни ничего и не говорил. Или ты меня с Новодворской перепутал? Собирательный образ врага?

Что я думаю, так это когда провокация становится технологией, поставленной на поток мощным централизованным государством с диктатором во главе и молчаливой поддержкой общества, таковое государство уделывает на раз-два любых любителей - и по количеству и качеству акций, и по уровню цинизма. Собственно, именно поэтому разобщенные украинские группы интересов никак не противники российской машине правды.

А что нужно Западу - мы уже увидели. Ему нафиг мы не нужны, и он изо всех сил пытается спасти лицо, почему Путина на место не поставил. И вот уже западные СМИ повторяют путинский бред об ущемлении интересов "этнических русских" и русскоязычных и типа фашистах в Киеве. Еще плюс один в пользу Пу.

Ну, что же, если Пу реально поплыл, теперь он аннексирует Крым, будет копить армию на дальнейшие завоевания и кончится все как с Гитлером. Если же еще относительно в себе - сделает из Крыма оффшор для финансовых махинаций, кормления генералов и неподотчетных вообще никому и ничему мероприятий, и будет продолжать тратить огромные ресурсы чтобы гадить нам в суп, чтобы не дай бог Украина не зажила по-нормальному, тогда его Русская Национальная Идея пойдет прахом невзирая ни на какие машины правды.

Thanks for the translation, Serge. Perhaps you could translate this for me:

"Профессора кафедры философии МГИМО Андрея Зубова уволили из высшего учебного заведения спустя несколько дней после того, как в одном из федеральных СМИ им была опубликована статья, в резкой форме критикующая возможность ввода российских войск в Крым."

For many other similar reports, simply enter "зубов увольнение" in google or yandex. However, if you still sincerely believe that the professor hasn't been sacked, perhaps you should contact him and give him the good news.

I think it's pretty unwise to refer to the Chechen wars when you insist that Russia's Anschluss of Crimea is a good thing. The wars weren't that pleasant, by all accounts. Of course Anna Politkovskaya could tell us about that, but she was murdered on Putin's birthday, as you no doubt know.

Let me try to explain in another way why I have real worries about the way Russia is moving. Putin, in my opinion, is at the top of a very simple, very crude "vertical of power". OK, this is inevitable if he's President. But the checks and measures which operate in other countries - the constitution, the legislature, even the courts - in Russia are controlled by Putin. The whole edifice is corrupt. At the moment, according to other people on this thread, Russians support Putin, but at some stage this whole rotten structure will fall down. What will happen to Russia then? Ironically, the best description of this was by Putin himself in his Munich speech:

"Однако что же такое однополярный мир? Как бы ни украшали этот термин, он в конечном итоге означает на практике только одно: это один центр власти, один центр силы, один центр принятия решения.

Это мир одного хозяина, одного суверена. И это в конечном итоге губительно не только для всех, кто находится в рамках этой системы, но и для самого суверена, потому что разрушает его изнутри.

И это ничего общего не имеет, конечно, с демократией. Потому что демократия – это, как известно, власть большинства при учете интересов и мнений меньшинства."

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

Ну я-то ТВ вообще никакое не смотрю - лет двадцать как. Разница между твоей и моей историей - что я свою получил из первых рук, и готовые выводы меня не устроили. И дети порезанные были вполне реальными - уж извини, но бабке своей я верю. Интересна твоя реакция - я тебе рассказываю историю без комментариев, а ты мне - "а у вас там негров линчуют". Я вроде как за резню на Волыни ничего и не говорил. Или ты меня с Новодворской перепутал? Собирательный образ врага?

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Я воспринял твою историю, как попытку усомниться в зверствах бандеровцев, ты уж извини. Я вот тоже расскажу историю, которую слышал из первых рук, от деда моей жены. В 43м ему было 10 лет и он был в немецкой оккупации. Когда немцы получили люлей под Курском и начали драпать, часть СС, которая базировалась в их селе, получила приказ уничтожить всех жителей и сжечь село перед отступлением. В селе также было много полицаев, дед их называет бандеровцами. Ну так вот, дед рассказывал, как мать их сгребла в охапку и спряталась в кустах на огороде, пока немцы жгли их дом. Потом одного немца отправили прочесать огород. Он заглянул в кусты, увидел насмерть перепуганную бабу с детьми, поводил дулом автомата, сделал вид, что их не заметил, развернулся и ушёл. Не захотел брать грех на душу. А на другом конце села зачистку проводили бандеровцы. Так вот, там не выжил никто.