Thread: Crimea joining the Russian Federation and its implications?

Yeah, USA's breaking promices. This is unheard of!

Hanna, he (it-ogo) still doesn't understand that the "project Ukraine" is closed. Well, at least the real leaders are arguing about its future (will it be closed or maybe one may give a second chance this fail state under Russian protectorate). Ukraine has never had own responsible elites, there were only thieves, clowns and crystal-clear fools that represent Ukrainian politicum. As we can see, for the last 20 years they learnt to jump together shouting "Кто не скачет - тот москаль" and that's all.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Hanna, he (it-ogo) still doesn't understand that the "project Ukraine" is closed. Well, at least the real leaders are arguing about its future (will it be closed or maybe one may give a second chance this fail state under Russian protectorate). Ukraine has never had own responsible elites, there were only thieves, clowns and crystal-clear fools that represent Ukrainian politicum. As we can see, for the last 20 years they learnt to jump together shouting "Кто не скачет - тот москаль" and that's all.

This is about his country, of course he is upset. Absolutely everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong with this revolution, from the perspective of a decent and patriotic (but not nazi) Ukrainian.

From a Ukrainian perspective, Russia's behaviour is extremely opportunistic and like a bully, taking advantage of superior strength in a weak moment of the republic. Ukraina could never do the same thing against Russia, and there is plenty of history where Russia has not treated Ukraine very well. I happen to think that Ukraine brought this upon itself, but that doesn't change the fact.

It-Ogo explained that he changed his position the moment it became clear to him that there were Russian troops operating on Ukrainian soil, because this crossed as line for him. I think that's a logical perspective.

Although I have a different viewpoint based on how I see the situation, and because I have an axe to grind with EU / USA, I still totally sympathise with the way he feels.

Who with the slightest amount of patriotism wouldn't be extremely upset at the mere thought of foreign troops on their soil, REGARDLESS of any mitigating circumstances...? (well apart from brainwashed Western Europeans who think it's normal to have US bases on their soil decade after decade - yes, talking about Brits, Germans, Italians & co. )

Plus it takes courage to stand up and keep defending your viewpoint the way he has done.

It seems to me that Crimea is a done deal so I am starting a new thread about Eastern Ukraine.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Hanna, he (it-ogo) still doesn't understand that the "project Ukraine" is closed. Well, at least the real leaders are arguing about its future (will it be closed or maybe one may give a second chance this fail state under Russian protectorate). Ukraine has never had own responsible elites, there were only thieves, clowns and crystal-clear fools that represent Ukrainian politicum. As we can see, for the last 20 years they learnt to jump together shouting "Кто не скачет - тот москаль" and that's all.

"Responsible elites?" LOL! Oh, is that what you call them in Russia?

Also, can you talk about more trade with Asia and how that benefits Russia? Who do you think will have the surplus? I want to read your answer... haha

Originally Posted by 14Russian

"Responsible elites?" LOL! Oh, is that what you call them in Russia?

Also, can you talk about more trade with Asia and how that benefits Russia? Who do you think will have the surplus? I want to read your answer... haha

Your arrogance is absolutely gobsmacking. Are you actually coming to this forum to teach Russians about THEIR country? Because only you are clever enough to see "the truth" without being a native speaker of the language, or living there! Your behaviour is embarrassing. Pull yourself together.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Your arrogance is absolutely gobsmacking. Are you actually coming to this forum to teach Russians about THEIR country? Because only you are clever enough to see "the truth" without being a native speaker of the language, or living there! Your behaviour is embarrassing. Pull yourself together.

Blah, blah, blah.... go back to asking your questions pretending you have a genuine interest. I was talking about simple economics which you probably don't know about either. Stop replying to my posts. Your phony self-righteousness is annoying.

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I have a question too, how long these outraged 'civilized people' will remain outraged? How soon the first 'Hilton' or 'Radisson' will appear in Crimea?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

You have a point. Though what about keeping promices? After the collapse of USSR Ukraine got rid of its part of Soviet nuclear weapon. USA instead officially guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity and inviolability of its borders. USA disarmed us for the promice to protect. Now the promice looks broken.

It's wrong to break promises but now Ukraine knows how much the US can be trusted. I'm strill trying to wrap my head around Ukraine giving up it's nuclear status. I wonder if Russia woulda invaded Crimea if Ukraine was still a nuclear power.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Hmm.. I wouldn't immediately agree with that. The Soviet regime at some point in its time used to displace peoples for various reasons, so the real reason remains uknown.
Population transfer in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I suspect the historical relationship [of several hunded years ago] between the Crimean Tatars and Slavs were probably the least important in the list of the reasons.
Besides, what nation have never traded slaves in their history?
Culturally, the Crimean Tatars strongly associate themselves with Turkey, so if given a chance they would do anything they could to become part of Turkey again.

Thanks for the link. It was just a thought. Even several hundred years doesn't always erase everything. Native Americans still live here on reservations and they have their own laws.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The USA also officially promised not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, a promise which they broke pretty much immediately after having made it.
I don't see how nukes would make any difference in this conflict anyway. But it's rather disturbing that some people seem to think it's worth bringing up.
From one thing to another. Apparently Russia is going to significantly increase the measly state pensions that old people on Crimea are receiving. I don't see how they can survive on 200 USD per month it seems absolutely impossible unless you have no rent and buy nothing apart from cheap groceries. I was glad to see they will get more money and it's nice that Russia is processing this fast.

$200 USD per month? That's just fun money. Are prices that much lower in Ukraine? I don't think they are much lower in Russia because we were looking at ads for houses with indoor pools and the prices were about the same in the US and Moscow. People need a lot more than $200 to live on.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

$200 USD per month? That's just fun money. Are prices that much lower in Ukraine? I don't think they are much lower in Russia because we were looking at ads for houses with indoor pools and the prices were about the same in the US and Moscow. People need a lot more than $200 to live on.

Well maybe you looked at properties marketed at foreigners? I was travelling in that region, and I realised after a while that anything that's translated into English essentially means there is an added 1/3 or sometimes more, to the price, seriously. Or anything that's aimed at Westerners too, or rich locals or Russians. I certainly wasn't looking for villas with a swimmingpool!

I wouldn't presume to know this, but I think there are some VERY cheap flats for rent in the ex USSR area. Some people bought their flats for next to nothing and are now living in properties they own but have no mortgage on. So that's great for for them, and their budget. I met a few people in Belarus who told me that they were living on 800-1000 a month (and were unhappy about it). But there, a lot of things are state subsidized and they wouldn't pay the "real" price for it. Don't think that happens in Ukraine. Just listening to all the discussions about gas price in Ukraine, I am getting the impression that it is make or break for a large part of the population. In the UK they just practically doubled the gas price a while back, but it only affected the very poor seriously. Everybody else could absorb the difference.

I think a lot of people in Ukraine are living very much on the brink of poverty and the it's not easy for many to get a good stable job. You might have hoped that 22 years AFTER the USSR, people would be better off, not worse, but I think for many the situation is quite the opposite and they really have a very dire situation. I read that many millions of Ukrainians are working in Russia because they simply can't get a half decently paying job in the Ukraine. I can't even imagine, how hard that would be.

Originally Posted by Hanna

This is about his country, of course he is upset. Absolutely everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong with this revolution, from the perspective of a decent and patriotic (but not nazi) Ukrainian.
From a Ukrainian perspective, Russia's behaviour is extremely opportunistic and like a bully, taking advantage of superior strength in a weak moment of the republic. Ukraina could never do the same thing against Russia, and there is plenty of history where Russia has not treated Ukraine very well. I happen to think that Ukraine brought this upon itself, but that doesn't change the fact.
It-Ogo explained that he changed his position the moment it became clear to him that there were Russian troops operating on Ukrainian soil, because this crossed as line for him. I think that's a logical perspective.
Although I have a different viewpoint based on how I see the situation, and because I have an axe to grind with EU / USA, I still totally sympathise with the way he feels.
Who with the slightest amount of patriotism wouldn't be extremely upset at the mere thought of foreign troops on their soil, REGARDLESS of any mitigating circumstances...? (well apart from brainwashed Western Europeans who think it's normal to have US bases on their soil decade after decade - yes, talking about Brits, Germans, Italians & co. )

Plus it takes courage to stand up and keep defending your viewpoint the way he has done.
It seems to me that Crimea is a done deal so I am starting a new thread about Eastern Ukraine.

Don't forget, Ukraine has a long history of Russian and European intervention that starts with Oleg of Novgorod conquering Kiev, in 882, to create Kievan Rus'. Since then, Russia has fought with Poland and Lithuania, Germany, and Austria (to name a few) in west/east land grabs that were still happening when the October Revolution began. I think the west half was still under Polish control during WW2 and there were more than 4 Ukrainian States at that time. So it wasn't just Russia that wanted Ukraine.

$200 USD per month? That's just fun money. Are prices that much lower in Ukraine? I don't think they are much lower in Russia because we were looking at ads for houses with indoor pools and the prices were about the same in the US and Moscow. People need a lot more than $200 to live on.

Pensions in Russia are just a bit higher. $270 they say, but the spread is huge as always. Most people I know get the same $200.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Pensions in Russia are just a bit higher. $270 they say, but the spread is huge as always. Most people I know get the same $200.

Really - your grandparents live on $200 /month -per person?
I'd like to know how they do that....

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well maybe you looked at properties marketed at foreigners? I was travelling in that region, and I realised after a while that anything that's translated into English essentially means there is an added 1/3 or sometimes more, to the price, seriously. Or anything that's aimed at Westerners too, or rich locals or Russians. I certainly wasn't looking for villas with a swimmingpool!

I wouldn't presume to know this, but I think there are some VERY cheap flats for rent in the ex USSR area. Some people bought their flats for next to nothing and are now living in properties they own but have no mortgage on. So that's great for for them, and their budget. I met a few people in Belarus who told me that they were living on 800-1000 a month (and were unhappy about it). But there, a lot of things are state subsidized and they wouldn't pay the "real" price for it. Don't think that happens in Ukraine. Just listening to all the discussions about gas price in Ukraine, I am getting the impression that it is make or break for a large part of the population. In the UK they just practically doubled the gas price a while back, but it only affected the very poor seriously. Everybody else could absorb the difference.

I think a lot of people in Ukraine are living very much on the brink of poverty and the it's not easy for many to get a good stable job. You might have hoped that 22 years AFTER the USSR, people would be better off, not worse, but I think for many the situation is quite the opposite and they really have a very dire situation. I read that many millions of Ukrainians are working in Russia because they simply can't get a half decently paying job in the Ukraine. I can't even imagine, how hard that would be.

I like to swim! You were right. I checked out 2 very similar 4 bedroom houses with pools here and near Moscow. The house here (2,495,000 USD) is an older house but the one near Moscow (only 456,309 USD) is modern. That's a huge difference in house prices. I found the Moscow house at a Russian real estate site and I converted rubles to dollars. And yeah, the last time I compared house prices I was checking out houses near Moscow at english sites and the prices were a lot higher.
Btw, it's always better to just pay cash for a house and not have a mortgage. The lawyers can settle the "lost interest" issues and dad said it's always a lot less than the interest they charge with a payment plan.
Not good, the Ukrainian poverty issue. Nobody should have to be poor.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Pensions in Russia are just a bit higher. $270 they say, but the spread is huge as always. Most people I know get the same $200.

I'm still thinking that prices in Russia must be lower because I don't understand how anybody could live with only $200 or $270 each month. But the only prices I've seen are for houses. I still need to learn more about prices for other stuff.

prices in Russia must be lower

Lower than in U.S. you mean?
Well, electronics are more expensive in Russian, air tickets, cars.
While apartments (both to purchase and to keep) probably cheaper. (I don't know much about prices in U.S. )
My expenses for 50m*m flat are about $100 a month, but pensioners have discounts and can get along without Internet.
Groceries are on a par I believe.
Single ride by bus costs $.5 here, and for you?

And, of course, both Russia and Ukraine are trying to win the hearts of the Crimean Tatars. After Ukraine lost Crimea, and after more than two decades of waiting, the Ukrainian Parliament had finally recognized the Mejlis!! Tada!! (Just after Putin made nice promices to the Tatars including the recognition of the Crimean Tatar language as one of the official languages of Crimea and representation in all state institutions of Crimea.) Isn't Ukraine a nice democratic country which fully respects the right of the aboriginal peoples and their right for the self-determination?

http://www.unian.net/politics/898608...v-ukraine.html

I'm pretty annoyed with Ukraine's actions right now (to put it mildly). By insisting on declaring Crimea "an occupied territory", boosting national anti-Crimea hysteria, and threatening repeatedly with warfare, bans and whatnot it hurts not Russia but Crimeans, who are still Ukrainian citizens according to Ukrainian government.

Crimea is indeed in a very vulnerable position economically and geographically, and this situation should be handled with extreme care. The fact that the government seems to be perfectly willing to destroy it not to "give it away" bothers me.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

this situation should be handled with extreme care

I think had the situation been handled with care, not even the extreme care, but just any type of care, Crimea would still be part of Ukraine with well-defined autonomy. Meaning, the power to issue laws (within the limits set by Ukrainian Constitution) and enforce them on their territory. Based on what I know about Crimea, joining Russian Federation is the less of the evils. Sure enough, now the Crimean channel is happy to broadcast the perfectly happy new Russian citizens 'who just found their way home', but in reality it was not that simple. Still, based on the information I get from Crimea, Russian-speaking population voted almost unanimously to be part of Russia, so that was not staged.

Громозека, рад тебя видеть.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

I'm pretty annoyed with Ukraine's actions right now (to put it mildly). By insisting on declaring Crimea "an occupied territory", boosting national anti-Crimea hysteria, and threatening repeatedly with warfare, bans and whatnot it hurts not Russia but Crimeans, who are still Ukrainian citizens according to Ukrainian government.

Crimea is indeed in a very vulnerable position economically and geographically, and this situation should be handled with extreme care. The fact that the government seems to be perfectly willing to destroy it not to "give it away" bothers me.

That was inevitable and predictable. That is the problem of pluralistic societies. No politician is independent enough to make a responcible decision. That was shockingly painful strike on the national consciousness, hysteria was inevitable and politicians just flow in the current. Mr. Poo at once successfully made us degrade almost to the moral level of Russian society. That is the way geopolitics works.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

[...] degrade almost to the moral level of Russian society.

Very nice.