Thread: Crimea joining the Russian Federation and its implications?

Originally Posted by Twonkybot

I would like to say on behalf of all intelligent, thinking people in the UK

How many of you are there?

Originally Posted by Twonkybot

, we are not so susceptable to the insidious nature of propaganda these days.

Well, finally

Everythin's gonna be alright, everythin's gonna be ok: Индексы Европы и

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Everythin's gonna be alright, everythin's gonna be ok: Индексы Европы и

Ну да, после таких-то "санкций" только посмеялись все.

Дык, люди уже опытные. Один раз на те же грабли не наступают. Сработало со свитой Янука, но сейчас нужно фантазию включать. Потому, будем ждать десятый пакет санкций. Кстати, насчёт стрельбы в Симфе, кто там говорил, что крымчанам никогда ничего не грозило? Ну, посмотрим на реакцию "зелёных человечков"...

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Ну, посмотрим на реакцию "зелёных человечков"...

Ну реакция-то, может, и будет. Только на реакцию-то и провоцируют.

Там по перешейку, как я понял, не проскочишь. А как с "морской границей"? Там, мне кажется, сейчас слона провезти можно, не только снайпера.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Ну, посмотрим на реакцию "зелёных человечков"...

Troll mode on…
Снайперы такая удобная штука...

Ну во первых – снайпер всегда вражеский. Ну очевидно же.

Во вторых – хорошего снайпера не видно. Если снайпера видно – то просто это кто-то пытается промыть хомячкам мозги. Мы то знаем что снайпер – настоящий профессионал. Наемник естественно.

В третьих – результатам официальных расследований верить нельзя. Потому что во первых и во вторых. Но полученных из интернета данных достаточно для того чтобы узнать правду. Ну во первых же.

Мне иногда кажется что их и нет на самом деле. А есть только симулякр для деперсонификации убийств. Вроде людей кто то убил, а виноват абстрактный злой «некто». Всем все ясно. Все довольны.
Troll mode off…

Originally Posted by Homsa

Мне иногда кажется что их и нет на самом деле. А есть только симулякр для деперсонификации убийств. Вроде людей кто то убил, а виноват абстрактный злой «некто». Всем все ясно. Все довольны.

А если что-то с чем-то не клеится, то снайперов можно умножать. При таком раскладе, вообще непонятно, кто в кого стрелял и за что. Интерпретация выбирается произвольно исходя из личных преференций.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Интерпретация выбирается произвольно исходя из личных преференций.

Quite serious in that an articulated lorry tried to write me off but I've been VERY lucky and now just have a residual hip problem, but a bit of pain and immobility is better than being dead in my book! LOL

Most of the threads here in the UK are pretty much against the US and those in our own government who have decided to try and speak for us. I think there is still a residual mistrust of Putin himself but William Hague definitely DOESN'T speak for the masses here.

It's quite comical that the US called the Russian Federation land grabbers. We have a saying here in the UK 'pot calling the kettle black' which fits our view of it all quite well.

Originally Posted by Twonkybot

William Hague definitely DOESN'T speak for the masses here.

He ought to, right, isn't he a democratically elected MP?
No but seriously, they talk about issues with democracy in Russia. Sure whatever, but I doubt it's any worse than the UK. Two near identical parties to vote for, and after they're elected they do whatever they like anyway. Including running the errands for big corporations and tagging onto American wars that most Brits realise are wrong in every way.

Anyway, hope you are feeling better!

Originally Posted by Twonkybot

Quite serious in that an articulated lorry tried to write me off but I've been VERY lucky and now just have a residual hip problem, but a bit of pain and immobility is better than being dead in my book! LOL

Most of the threads here in the UK are pretty much against the US and those in our own government who have decided to try and speak for us. I think there is still a residual mistrust of Putin himself but William Hague definitely DOESN'T speak for the masses here.

It's quite comical that the US called the Russian Federation land grabbers. We have a saying here in the UK 'pot calling the kettle black' which fits our view of it all quite well.

It's awesome that you survived that! Never trust huge trucks. I got slammed by a small truck last year but it only knocked me into someone's yard and I wasn't hurt. It was like flying, lol. Still kinda scary and I lost my bike.

It's important to remember who's pushing the foreign policies in the west... the governments. There are people here that don't agree with what the US is doing in Ukraine (including me and my family) but nobody in Washington DC would ever listen to us. They only listen to other politicians and huge corporations.
Btw, you're right about the land grabbing thing. All the US land grabbing and invasions keeps a lot of people nervous here. I mean yeah, there are times when the US has to defend it's interests but I don't get how the US could have any really important interests in Ukraine, Iraq, Iran, or Syria. It just doesn't click and I haven't seen anything in the media that really explains it. Also, I don't like the idea of "world police". Why should it be our responsibility to police the world? I think the world would be better if it just policed itself.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Why should it be our responsibility to police the world? I think the world would be better if it just policed itself.

Totally agree! I've just been on a thread in the UK in which only one person has started saying what we need to do etc. and the rest of us have just said 'Why is it any of our business and who made us judge and jury'.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Why should it be our responsibility to police the world? I think the world would be better if it just policed itself.

You have a point. Though what about keeping promices? After the collapse of USSR Ukraine got rid of its part of Soviet nuclear weapon. USA instead officially guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity and inviolability of its borders. USA disarmed us for the promice to protect. Now the promice looks broken.

LOL...the tabloids & reporting are the propaganda!! It doesn't necessarily represent the view of the masses.

If they did we wouldn't have won the decision not to get involved in Syria in the way that the US (and incidentally our own government) were attempting to bully us into.

You shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers!

By the way did you notice the trouncing the UK got in the tabloids after that decision and the subsequent attempts to make us feel guilty for it?

Well, unfortunately, it is all very controversial.. You see, the Crimean referendum was boycotted by about 15% of the Crimean population (of which the dominant part were the Crimean Tatars loyal to the central power in Kiev). As a result, there's not a slim chance for the Crimean Tatar terrorirsm [supported by whom?] becoming a reality.. Besides, the US is the leader of NATO and guess who just missed their chance to deploy their troops closer to Russia.. Why won't they be upset? Also, Russia and the EU already almost got their peace with each other [and the stocks went up]. Both Russia and the EU are economic rivals of each other but also guess of whom?

Charlie Rose | charlierose.com

Tom Friedman and David Sanger of the New York Times discuss the ongoing crisis in Ukraine.



Интересно послушать. Взвешенный и честный анализ международной обстановки на сегодняшний день.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I think it is all very complex. The Crimeans are about 60 per cent ethnic Russians, 15 percent Crimean Tatars, 20 percent Ukrainians and 5 percent other ethnic groups. The Crimean Tatars are the native peoples of Crimea, but the peninsula has a history of several hundred years being part of the Russian Empire. In 1944 the Tatars were deported en mass into the remote regions of Central Asia as a collective punishment by the Soviet regime which the Tatars strongly associate with Russians. Only in 1991 the Tatars were allowed to repatriate to Crimea which at that time became part of Ukraine. So, the Crimean Tatars do not want to become part of Russia because they strongly associate Russians with the oppression and the genocide. At the same time, the rest of the population are influenced by the two major driving forces: the economic (Russia is a way richer country than Ukraine) and cultural (the majority strongly associate themselves with Russian language and culture). At the same time, Crimea has a long history of their local interests being ignored by the central government in Kiev and the Crimean autonomy only exists on paper. So, part of Crimeans prefer being in Russia to being in Ukraine and the other part the other way around. Hope it clarifies..

Just one thing to add:

Until the late 18th century, Crimean Tatars maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East. About 2 million slaves from Russia and Ukraine were sold over the period 1500–1700. Tatars were known for frequent, at some periods almost annual, devastating raids on the Slavic peoples to the north. In 1769 a last major Tatar raid, which took place during the Russo-Turkish War, saw the capture of 20,000 slaves.

Also, those raids included the killing of Orthodox Christians.
Crimea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What's being clarified for me in this crisis is how little concern the US has for Russia's needs and interests. If I had that little concern for my friends' interests, I wouldn't have any friends.
There will be a lot of difficulties for the Crimean people but they seem to be adjusting to the new situation.
Crimea becomes more Russian by the hour - The Washington Post

But imo, this is only the beginning. I predict there will be more annexations and/or referendums happening soon.

Gorbachev added that the referendum set an example for people in Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine, who also should decide their fate.

http://news.yahoo.com/putin-approves...074249071.html

The true face of the EU:

Van Rompuy cancels Russia trip to meet Putin: diplomat — EUbusiness

In two words, European Council president Herman Van Rompuy wanted to visit Russia and get a first-hand information about Russian positions.
Now he cancels his visit, because (those bloody) "Russians made it (this mission) public." Transparency in such delicate matters can only do harm, no doubt.
Apparently nobody in EU really wants to hear anything that contradicts their official line. Great diplomatic efforts, Mr. Van Rompuy! Applause to EU!

Originally Posted by Ramil

The true face of the EU:

Van Rompuy cancels Russia trip to meet Putin: diplomat — EUbusiness

In two words, European Council president Herman Van Rompuy wanted to visit Russia and get a first-hand information about Russian positions.
Now he cancels his visit, because (those bloody) "Russians made it (this mission) public." Transparency in such delicate matters can only do harm, no doubt.
Apparently nobody in EU really wants to hear anything that contradicts their official line. Great diplomatic efforts, Mr. Van Rompuy! Applause to EU!

Given that my country is part of EU I would like to mention that EU countries do not have a common foreign policy or a common defence policy (i.e. the decisions should be taken unanimously).
And that guy, who presumably represents EU in reality represents just particular interests of particular countries (Germany not included).
Cyprus is against sanctions and respects the cultural, religion, historical and economical relationships with Russia, even if it is a divided country (with serious political problems), with the worst economical position in EU and of course 100% dependence on EU and IMF funds:

Кипр против санкций в отношении

Russia had the historical right to annex Krym.
Also based on the Realpolitik Russians of Ukraine (or of any other country of the region) cannot live in a counrtry that belongs to NATO. It doesn't make sense.
NATO should have been destroyed when the Warsaw Pact collapsed. The continuation of it's existence means that it stills consider Russia as a potential threat.
My opinion.

By the way, there is a remarkable nuance. This process of uniting was named in the official documents as "reuniting" (воссоединение), not "uniting". So you should consider it only in that way.