Thread: Austrian Politican Speaks candidly

Originally Posted by Ramil

Why not? You can't civilize people against their will.

Because, my dear, you surely want to become a Knight of the Order of the Elephant (and receive another 200 or so awards), do you not?

Originally Posted by Hanna

The list of free after-school clubs is impressive (apart from the gay club, in school!!!).

Are these real functioning clubs where the children can be looked after after school?
It'd be interesting to know what they say to the kids about the Iraq and Afghanistan wars in the "Peace club"!

Yes they are real clubs and some are after school and some meet during lunch. A teacher is the sponsor for each club. I know there are even more as I have seen emails about some not listed on their Website, like a knitting club that meets during lunch. The Principal has made it clear, if you want a club, he'll find a sponsor for it.

Peace Studies Club...

About this Club: We say we uphold Einstein's name by following his academic excellence. A recent graduate, having participated in this program, commented that although this statement was true, we forget his academic excellence extends beyond the sciences. She observed it was not until last year that she learned about Einstein's history of peace activism - peace (he said) cannot be achieved through violence. It can only be attained through understanding. If you have not realized it before, the fact is, we all rely on a variety of heroes to provide us inspiration for our life's dreams. However, rarely do we take time to consider the ones who, by their humanitarian and nonviolent effort, also provide everyone, the world over, with challenging thoughts designed to make dreams come true - they are our peace heroes. Albert Einstein is one of these heroes.

You are invited to join this year's group and, for a short period each week, delve into the minds of some extraordinary people.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The list of free after-school clubs is impressive (apart from the gay club, in school!!!).

Nice sensationalism there. "Gay straight alliance" doesn't mean "gay club".

Are you also one of those people who would deny sex education to children because you think they will "become sexualised" too young?

Originally Posted by rockzmom

I believe that no matter how much "truth" I provide you with, you will still not be satisfied.

Hmm... Actually I didn't look for satisfaction and did not follow the discussion. I tried to explain what is "propaganda" and its relation to truth as a reply to your paragraph. I don't oppose your values but mixing facts and ideology is just painful for me as a researcher.

Measurable values are different for each person.

Nope. Measurable values are values which can be measured by everybody who follows the technology of measurements and do not depend on a personal opinion. They are the only way of being objective and even sane. In common life people use it intuitively, which is called "common sense", but in the areas far from everyday life the common sense does not work. Ideology is needed for people to feel comfortable and it is good. But when such an ideology is used to decide problems far away from the decider (like the fate of people on another end of the globe), these decisions can be absolutely destructive. And this is the great danger for everybody.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Why not? You can't civilize people against their will.

Ok, a more serious reason: because we have a common planet and we can't go away from each other. So, we have to somehow find a way to co-exist. What we see with South African example is a good lesson to everyone as it could relatively soon be the reality of the entire world. Also, as a side note, I would like to mention your earlier post with "isn't it a shame". So, what do you think of that?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Ok, a more serious reason: because we have a common planet and we can't go away from each other. So, we have to somehow find a way to co-exist. What we see with South African example is a good lesson to everyone as it could relatively soon be the reality of the entire world. Also, as a side note, I would like to mention your earlier post with "isn't it a shame". So, what do you think of that?

Дабы не прослыть неполиткорректным, перейду на русский.
Вот есть такая теория, что после формирования разумного вида живых организмов на планете, остальные виды уже не смогут занять эту нишу, т.е. в одной, скажем, экосистеме, возможно существование лишь одного разумного вида жизни. То же с цивилизациями. На планете присутствует несколько существующих параллельно "цивилизаций", каждая из которых находится на разных ступенях развития. Европейская, ближневосточная, дальневосточная, африканская. Моральные нормы и ценности у всех разные, и принять мораль соседней цивилизации ни один представитель не сможет, более того, некоторые аспекты этих моральных норм у разных цивилизаций диаметрально противоположны. В принципе, здесь тоже будет наблюдаться некое эволюционная конкуренция и выживет лишь сильнейший. Выхода из этого тупика, мне лично видится два -- глобальный конфликт или холодная война (ну или "мирное сосуществование двух систем"). Оба варианта -- плохие, но повторяю, единые морально-этические нормы в глобальном плане могут установиться лишь тогда, когда все, кроме одной цивилизации докажут свою несостоятельность.
Поэтому, пытаться привить "западные" ценности африканцам -- затея бессмысленная. Исстреблять их -- негуманно (с нашей точки зрения, опять же, ведь для многих представителей ближневосточной цивилизации, к примеру, это не так очевидно). Вот исходя из таких рассуждений я и считаю, что лучшим курсом будет политика невмешательства. Пусть строят свою цивилизацию так, как хотят. В конце-концов, европейская цивилизация тоже не сразу пришла к гуманизму и толерантности.

Originally Posted by Demonic_Duck

Those people who would deny sex education to children because you think they will "become sexualised" too young?

Yes. There is plenty of time for that later in life.

Personally I was given comprehensive sex education, including all about contraceptives from 12 or so, because it's mandatory in Sweden. I'll spare you the details - and it was quite detailed.

Is this type of sex education what you support? As I remember it was just weird and offputting.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Yes. There is plenty of time for that later in life.

Personally I was given comprehensive sex education, including all about contraceptives from 12 or so, because it's mandatory in Sweden. Girls who haven't even had their period yet have learn all about condoms etc, how they are put on etc. Plus all about sexually transmitted diseases and a visit by somebody who had HIV, to "warn" students. Later, all the girls had to watch an actual birth - very dramatic - in full detail... (I am sure that nowadays the boys have to watch the film too, so it's "equal".) The teacher also showed a porn magazine and explained "this view of women is degrading and incorrect". I can't remember that homosexuality came up, but no doubt this is fully included nowadays.

Is this type of sex education what you support? As I remember it was just weird and offputting.

Agreed. Kids should be taught that sex is as natural and necessary thing as eating, drinking, sleeping, etc. for being another physical need of the human. And all they have to worry about is those diseases which aren't going to affect them if they practice safe sex. That's the kind of sex education one has ever needed.

And one more thing, parents who think their kid is too young for telling him/her about sex, and avoid talking about it, are most likely gonna get him/her taught by his/her more experienced friends, and sometimes the "teaching" also includes practical exercises...

Originally Posted by Ramil

Дабы не прослыть неполиткорректным, перейду на русский.

А чего уже, собственно, боятся после честного признания в шовинизме, национализме, и т.д.? Раз уж тогда никто не кинул камень в твой огород, значит не боись.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Вот есть такая теория, что после формирования разумного вида живых организмов на планете, остальные виды уже не смогут занять эту нишу, т.е. в одной, скажем, экосистеме, возможно существование лишь одного разумного вида жизни. То же с цивилизациями.

Тут, по логике изложения, хорошо бы и сноску сделать на теорию, чтобы основательнее выглядело. Ибо на практике всё по другому - цивилизации и нации внутри одного биологически совместимого вида СМЕШИВАЮТСЯ и образуют новую популяцию с новыми национальными и цивилизационными признаками. На любую теорию есть эксперимент и его различные интерпретации. Словом "теория" сегодня уже мало кого можно напугать.

Originally Posted by Ramil

На планете присутствует несколько существующих параллельно "цивилизаций", каждая из которых находится на разных ступенях развития.

Эта точка зрения была довольно популярна с момента великих географических открытий и примерно до середины 20-го века, когда она доказала свою несостоятельность. Разные ступени развития относительно чего? Возможности физического устранения конкурента, не так ли? Как только появилось оружие, позволяющее разрушить всю экосистему, такая постановка вопроса является однозначно де-эволюционной, то есть идиотской и самоубийственной. Продолжающееся усовершенствование вооружения ведёт к миниатюризации и упрощении в использовании. Не мне тебе объяснять в начале 21-го века (в связи с развитием террористической тактики), что это может означать. В этой ситуации, общество генерирует толерантность как биологически активный фермент (раз уж ты приводишь биологические аналогии). Конец 20-го начало 21-го века ознаменовались эволюцией в националистических философиях. Постулируется национализм по духу и толерантность к другим нациям. Но, осталась проблема взаимности толерантности, как это можно объяснить развивающимся странам? Ведь того и гляди главенствующие цивилизации христианства и ислама начнут резать друг друга. Взаимного напряжения - хоть отбавляй. А возможный результат - один.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Выхода из этого тупика, мне лично видится два -- глобальный конфликт или холодная война (ну или "мирное сосуществование двух систем"). Оба варианта -- плохие, но повторяю, единые морально-этические нормы в глобальном плане могут установиться лишь тогда, когда все, кроме одной цивилизации докажут свою несостоятельность.

Раз оба варианта плохие, как насчёт варианта с эволюцией культур?

Originally Posted by Ramil

Поэтому, пытаться привить "западные" ценности африканцам -- затея бессмысленная. Исстреблять их -- негуманно (с нашей точки зрения, опять же, ведь для многих представителей ближневосточной цивилизации, к примеру, это не так очевидно). Вот исходя из таких рассуждений я и считаю, что лучшим курсом будет политика невмешательства. Пусть строят свою цивилизацию так, как хотят. В конце-концов, европейская цивилизация тоже не сразу пришла к гуманизму и толерантности.

Хорошие, добрые слова, только есть ли у нас достаточно времени для этого? И как долго мы сможем поддерживать политику двойных стандартов? У ЮАР этого не получилось. А ведь европейская культура находится в явном демографическом меньшинстве. И в дальнейшем кривая демографическая не в пользу цивилизации европейского типа. Так какая же цивилизация победит в конкурентной борьбе? Единственная возможная тактика для европейской цивилизации - привить свои ценности пока не поздно или строить на все ресурсы детали космического корабля и валить на Альфа Центавра. Нет у нас нескольких сот лет на ожидание. Такие дела.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Hmm... Actually I didn't look for satisfaction and did not follow the discussion. I tried to explain what is "propaganda" and its relation to truth as a reply to your paragraph. I don't oppose your values but mixing facts and ideology is just painful for me as a researcher.



Nope. Measurable values are values which can be measured by everybody who follows the technology of measurements and do not depend on a personal opinion. They are the only way of being objective and even sane. In common life people use it intuitively, which is called "common sense", but in the areas far from everyday life the common sense does not work. Ideology is needed for people to feel comfortable and it is good. But when such an ideology is used to decide problems far away from the decider (like the fate of people on another end of the globe), these decisions can be absolutely destructive. And this is the great danger for everybody.

I guess I did not express myself clearly enough with my reply. A Measurable Value has different meaning to different people. Let's say for this example...the value is 10%... 10% of the immigrants who come to the U.S. within 10 years will make more than the poverty level (just an example here I honestly don't know the value). That measurable value may be of no interest to someone if they are wealthy to start out with and their concern is say, freedom of religion. They don't care about income, they care about religion. So, that value has no meaning for them. Yet for someone who is poor, it would have significant meaning for them.

That was why I provided different types of facts for you as I didn't know which fact you wanted "truth" for and not "ideology" as I don't know what is meaningful to you.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Agreed. Kids should be taught that sex is as natural and necessary thing as eating, drinking, sleeping, etc. for being another physical need of the human. And all they have to worry about is those diseases which aren't going to affect them if they practice safe sex. That's the kind of sex education one has ever needed.

And one more thing, parents who think their kid is too young for telling him/her about sex, and avoid talking about it, are most likely gonna get him/her taught by his/her more experienced friends, and sometimes the "teaching" also includes practical exercises...

In our county, parents are offered to come in to the school (usually in a group setting with teachers and other parents) and review the "Family/Life" unit prior to it being taught. If the parents have any objections to their children being taught the materials, they can op out for independent study in the library/media center for part or all of the lessons. Parents were also asked to be on the advisory committee to help with the curriculum.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Is this type of sex education what you support? As I remember it was just weird and offputting.

Talk about weird...The materials need to be more than this video as this will have absolutely no impact on teens... except make them laugh:

Originally Posted by Hanna

The list of free after-school clubs is impressive (apart from the gay club, in school!!!).

Gay-Straight Alliance
About this Club: To provide a safe and supportive meeting place and discussion forum for sexual minority and questioning (GLBTQ) students as well as their friend and allies to discuss topics of interest. The GSA works to encourage more inclusive and accepting attitudes among fellow students and staff. The GSA has also hosted guest speakers, participated in social events, attended free performances, and organized "day of silence" activities at school to promote awareness of HIV/AIDS. The GSA will be what you make it! If you have ideas, come and share them!

Originally Posted by Hanna

Yes. There is plenty of time for that later in life.

Personally I was given comprehensive sex education, including all about contraceptives from 12 or so, because it's mandatory in Sweden. I'll spare you the details - and it was quite detailed.

Is this type of sex education what you support? As I remember it was just weird and offputting.

Well I don't know exactly how it was taught to you, so I can't say. But I definitely think kids do need to be taught these things. If two kids decide to start "experimenting", at least if they have a proper sex education they'll know how to stay safe, and the worst thing they'll have is a bad experience. If they don't know about the possible consequences of their actions, they could end up in all sorts of horrible situations. It's better to teach kids "wait til you're ready to have sex, but when you are, stay safe", rather than just tell them "SEX IS WRONG IF YOU HAVE SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE YOU WILL GO TO HELL".

Another thing is that sex needs to be destigmatised. Children shouldn't be taught that it's something horrible and wrong, but that it can be very beautiful, in the right circumstances. They also need to be taught that there is no shame in it. If a child is abused by an older relative and she's been taught all her life that "sex is wrong", her terrible experience will be compounded even further by a deep sense of shame, she will feel isolated, and there's very little chance she will tell anyone what has happened. If there wasn't so much stigma around sex, abused children would at least not feel like social outcasts, and they may have more confidence to speak up.

Originally Posted by rockzmom

Gay-Straight Alliance
About this Club: To provide a safe and supportive meeting place and discussion forum for sexual minority and questioning (GLBTQ) students as well as their friend and allies to discuss topics of interest. The GSA works to encourage more inclusive and accepting attitudes among fellow students and staff. The GSA has also hosted guest speakers, participated in social events, attended free performances, and organized "day of silence" activities at school to promote awareness of HIV/AIDS. The GSA will be what you make it! If you have ideas, come and share them!

Oh come on, you can't tell me that that's evil, Hanna.

edit: just watched the video in rockzmom's post. Holy f*** that is disturbing.

Originally Posted by Demonic_Duck

Oh come on, you can't tell me that that's evil, Hanna.

No I wasn't - I was just questioning whether it belongs in a school. University, maybe.
I would have ALMOST the same view on any club relating to sex, aimed at under 18s. Of course I agree there is a lot to be said for good sex education - nobody wants to see young people messing up their health and future because they didn't know the basics on that. It's just a matter of how it's done and when. And I am definitely not in a position to preach to anyone about abstinence until marriage, so I am certainly not.

These are clearly issues you have strong views on, since you have brought up the topic a couple of time, I have stated my opinion, which is that there is an overexposure of homosexuality in media and society at the moment.
I agree that the vid is terrible.

This is too far off topic even for me.. so I won't comment on it any more on it.

Fair enough. Perhaps I have somewhat misunderstood your actual position on the subject. I guess we will have to "agree to disagree".

Now... what was this thread about originally? I seem to have forgotten

Back on "topic": My little country has now had it's very own terrorist attack. Some muslim guy blew himself up in the middle of Stockholm on Saturday. This is just so insane, because Sweden has never started any wars in that region, never been imperialist and exploited these countries, and has accepted hundreds of thousands of refugees from the Mid East, supporting them in full, for years.

I guess the deluded politically correct clowns have fulfilled their long time agenda now, that they had since the 1980s, about making Sweden a "multicultural" country. All they would have needed to do is look at the world and say "we don't have most of these problems, so let's NOT import them! That's what Finland did, for example, and it worked jolly well for them... Unfortunately my country was not so smart. = The asylum policy is a mockery since it is used by economic migrants and is not doing anything to solve any problems + it is insanely expensive. I think there should be a limited labour immigration of skilled and unskilled workers; in proportion to population, requirements and available public services.

Originally Posted by Hanna

This is just so insane, because Sweden has never started any wars in that region, never been imperialist and exploited these countries

So, now you might start realizing those alleged 'reasons' are not the real reasons for the terror.

Huh? What are the main reasons in your opinion then?

Originally Posted by Demonic_Duck

Huh? What are the main reasons in your opinion then?

The oil. I'm one of those people who cherchez le oil in any trouble.

Am I missing something? Has anyone discovered oil in Sweden while I wasn't looking?

No, unfortunately its the Norwegians who have the oil in Scandinavia... That's why they are literally rolling in money at the moment.

But the the guy who blew himself up was an Iraqi refugee who arrived in Sweden as a child in the early 1990s.
So there is an oil connection but like Crocodile says, you have to think back a few steps.

After coming to Sweden, his family were put up in a small and idyllic (very peaceful) place in Southern Sweden. Everyone who knew him there was very surprised. He became radical while studying at a university in the UK, then later he went to the Middle East to "study jihad" although he lied to his family and said he was going to Dubai to work. He didn't actually kill anyone though, just himself. But he wrote a rather horrifying farewell letter that would indicate that he meant to create more damage than he did.

I am feeling a bit disillusioned with my country at the moment:
Pirate Bay verdict, all the events surrounding Wikileaks and Assange, more and more revelations about Cold war events that the public were mislead about, and then the political correctness that's out of all proportion.
I never had any illusions about England etc though, but if this continues I'll soon be as cynical about the world as Ramil...!