Thread: About Cold War and more

Wasn't it according to the idea of shrinking the "capitalistic circle"? What was the blah-blah and what was actually happening? In your earlier post you mentioned the Cuban Crisis, but what had preceded that? Do you remember the emigration through Berlin and the subsequent Berlin Crisis? The two systems cannot co-exist. The war which would shrink/eliminate the capitalistic circle was inevitable. That was bound to happen regardless of the peaceful rhetoric.

Капитализм и социализм здесь по большому счету ни при чем. Это борьба двух сверхдержав, и все.

Ok, so the WWII started in the 1939. The UK and France fought with Germany. During that time the soviet people weren't that active to help the western countries. Strange, right?

Какая разница? Советским людям во время войны было наплевать на начало Второй мировой, их это не касалось. К тому же Советский Союз и не говорил, что он будет помогать Франции и Англии сражаться с Германией.

I think you're mixing up things here. I don't think those who started the "remodeling" have planned for the disintegration of the USSR. Also, people in general liked the idea of the USSR and disliked the nationalist sentiments of the late 80s which ultimately caused the disintegration. The whole thing was though to be more like the New Economic policy of the past, something that could revive the economics and make people more involved and interested. I'm not really sure that was a bad idea, it could work.

Нет, именно это они и планировали. Я долго думал на эту тему и пришел к однозначному выводу: Горбачев - предатель, сознательно ведший страну к гибели.

Why do you think that happened? Was there a reason, or people just went crazy altogether?

Это идеологическое поражение сов. власти. Неэффективность пропаганды.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Капитализм и социализм здесь по большому счету ни при чем. Это борьба двух сверхдержав, и все.

What do you think about the Berlin Crisis? People were fleeing from the Eastern side to the Western side. Was it because of the effective propaganda?
You see, I agree with your point that the struggle of the two superpower had taken place. However, what I disagree is that the struggle had no previous history.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Какая разница? Советским людям во время войны было наплевать на начало Второй мировой, их это не касалось.

Not quite so. Do you remember that the WWII officially started with Germany invaded Poland? Ok, so the USSR had joined the WWII two weeks after that, remember? Then there was the war of 1940 with Finland. So, the soviet people weren't oblivious about the WWII. So, why the "westerners" weren't so eager to help the USSR, like they allegedly should? Because they are just too evil? What do you say? Even the extension of the lend-lease to the USSR was disputed by many.

Originally Posted by Marcus

К тому же Советский Союз и не говорил, что он будет помогать Франции и Англии сражаться с Германией.

Exactly. Because in 1939 it helped Germany to fight Poland. So, could you blame France and the UK for not being too active helping the USSR? I think they simply did not know what to do with the USSR. Ideally, from their point of view, the USSR and Germany would weaken each other and thus be of the lesser future threat. Can you really blame them?

Originally Posted by Marcus

Нет, именно это они и планировали. Я долго думал на эту тему и пришел к однозначному выводу: Горбачев - предатель, сознательно ведший страну к гибели.

Ok, so let's assume you're right. So, what motivation did he have? And what did he win as a result of disintegration of the USSR? He was a Secretary General of the USSR. One of the wealthiest and mightiest people in the world. He had everything. Then, with a disintegration of the USSR he became just a person. What was his interest?

Originally Posted by Marcus

Это идеологическое поражение сов. власти. Неэффективность пропаганды.

I would respectfully disagree. The propaganda was very effective. I'm not sure how old are you, but if I ask you a couple of the Soviet propaganda keywords you will remember right away. "Израильская военщина провела очередную карательную операцию?" "Самосовские головорезы?" "Фидель Кастро посетил Советский Союз с очередным дружественным визитом?" Does it ring the bells? Do you remember anything from the BBC in those days? And those who could really listen to the "Radio of Freedom" were really a minority. I couldn't. Were your parents able to catch the BBC programs if they wanted? Whose parents on this forum could listen to the BBC? Or were listening to the BBC? So, the Soviet propaganda was working hard and the western propaganda wasn't really getting to its audience. However, by the 80s people were experienced enough not to believe anything that comes from the government. Any idea why? Do you think people just were stupid?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I would respectfully disagree. The propaganda was very effective. I'm not sure how old are you, but if I ask you a couple of the Soviet propaganda keywords you will remember right away. "Израильская военщина провела очередную карательную операцию?" "Самосовские головорезы?" "Фидель Кастро посетил Советский Союз с очередным дружественным визитом?"

Ok, but if the Soviet propaganda was so good, how come it did not work on you Crocodile? You were never really with the programme, and left when you could.... And if the propaganda was effective, then why did the USSR disintigrate? If people had believed it, then they would have thought "whatever the problems here, it is still better than imperialism & capitalism...." Instead they thought "where can I buy a pair of Levis'...." (Btw, commercial messages is a form of propaganda too!)

One thing that I like about the approach of communist countries to propaganda, is that they call it what it was. I.e. as far as I am aware, communism actually calls propaganda by its right name and admits that it is doing that, agitation etc. If you see a red banner with a slogan, you know what it is, right - and you can choose to think "Bullshit".

The creepy propaganda is that which you are not aware that you have been subjected to.
Assumptions which you just have, but you can't really explain why, where they come from.

I mean, there have been some serious American propaganda victims here, haven't there? People with horrendous prejudice and poorly informed views on Russia, the USSR or something else.
Then somebody tries to talk some sense to them and they get really agitated!
And it is obvious that these people have their heads full of crappy Hollywood action/spy dramas, or Fox News reports on Russia.

Are there really people in Russia with such a poorly informed and prejudiced views on the USA? I don't think so, although I don't for sure.

I honestly think US is much better at propaganda than the USSR was... With all their patriotic films, horrible portrayls of their "enemies" in films and the News.. Making kids learn storybook style anecdotes about American historical figures, "founding fathers" loyalty pledges every day in school, and singing of national anthem with much drama. I don't think the USSR quite matched their level and scale of patriotic and ideological indoctrination!

Originally Posted by Hanna

I honestly think US is much better at propaganda than the USSR was... With all their patriotic films, horrible portrayls of their "enemies" in films and the News.. Making kids learn storybook style anecdotes about American historical figures, "founding fathers" loyalty pledges every day in school, and singing of national anthem with much drama. I don't think the USSR quite matched their level and scale of patriotic and ideological indoctrination!

We had our founding father - Lenin. References to Lenin were ubiquitous - from ABC-books to forewords in technical volumes.
There are some very good songs about him. This one, for example (1974):



It's so spirited that you just jump to your feet and start singing along

PS: It's hard to comprehend how USSR happened to dissolve 17 years after the creation of this hit.

Originally Posted by Hanna

.. Making kids learn storybook style anecdotes about American historical figures, "founding fathers" loyalty pledges every day in school, and singing of national anthem with much drama. I don't think the USSR quite matched their level and scale of patriotic and ideological indoctrination!

Hanna... you've been down this path before We are not the only place that says a pledge or sings anthems. Believe me, it is more of a tradition than being patriotic. Young boys (and girls) today, they don't even take off their hats, EVEN when reminded to before hand by the Principal. Some of the kids don't even bother to take out their earbuds or put away their cell phones... let alone stand.

Originally Posted by rockzmom

Hanna... you've been down this path before We are not the only place that says a pledge or sings anthems. Believe me, it is more of a tradition than being patriotic. Young boys (and girls) today, they don't even take off their hats, EVEN when reminded to before hand by the Principal. Some of the kids don't even bother to take out their earbuds or put away their cell phones... let alone stand.

Haha, I am a broken record. Oh well! And I agree with you , discipline in school is probably an issue in most countries...

But America has a great deal more patriotism than countries in Europe, I can absolutely promise you that. So from my perspective the USA is quite extreme.

There is next to no patriotic stuff AT ALL anywhere in Europe. Once or twice a year you sing the national anthem in school - there is no loyalty pledge and no glorification of heroic history like there is in the USA. There are no old time kings or others that are glorified really - all of the old time heroes were involved in activities that are unacceptable now, or politically incorrect. There is the terrible legacy of devastating wars, guilt from colonialism, persecution of minorities and terrorism by separatist states. All that has put people off nationalism and patriotism. The only exceptions are the "new" countries in Eastern Europe, that have some kind of point to prove.

So looked at it from our perspective, the nationalism of the USA is pretty extreme, with 4th of July, daily pledges in school, famous anectotes about leaders. There is endless talk about supposedly "American values" that are all about "freedom" and things like that. Sounds good, but for whom, how and at what price?

I think it's pretty much comparable in intensity with the USSR which had parades, loyalty pledges, idolizing Lenin and talk about idealistic utopian ideas which they did not quite live up to... Just a different flavour of propaganda.

I have seen young pioneer reciting some kind of pledge, on TV - guessing that must have been compulsory, so an equivalent to what Americans do. Not sure whether Russia today does anything like that.. I would guess, probably not.

Joke video about American Pledge of Allegiance in school! Funny!!!



I don't dislike patriotism at all, it can be a really nice thing.
As long as every country keeps their patriotic and nationalistic stuff within their own borders and don't use it to justify starting wars or invasions!

If the USSR had been the winner of the Cold War and was violently pushing their agenda while being hypocritical about their ideology then I would have just as much an issue with that.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Haha, I am a broken record.
Some patriotic kids in the USA... As far as I understand, this is done EVERY day in school!

Hanna, just remember that in the US, you are free NOT to participate, no one forces you to say the pledge...

"The Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that students cannot be forced to salute the flag. Maryland law explicitly allows any student or teacher to be excused from participating in the pledge, according to the ACLU. The Montgomery school system's student handbook contains a section about "Patriotic Exercises" that reads: "You cannot be required to say a pledge, sing an anthem, or take part in patriotic exercises. No one will be permitted to intentionally embarrass you if you choose not to participate."

It is my understanding that in Canada, at school you sing O Canada and recited the lord's prayer in the morning and end the school day by singing God Save the Queen.

Originally Posted by Hanna

There are no old time kings or others that are glorified really

And that big wedding that happened last year across the pond from the USA... and all the brouhaha about Prince Harry's blue shoes and the Queen's Diamond Jubilee??? What is all of that my dear? Is that not patriotic and also great PR??

Originally Posted by Hanna

So looked at it from our perspective, the nationalism of the USA is pretty extreme, with 4th of July, daily pledges in school, famous anectotes about leaders. There is endless talk about supposedly "American values" that are all about "freedom" and things like that. Sounds good, but for whom, how and at what price?

Okay, let me try to put it this way. In 2006 the United States accepted more legal immigrants as permanent residents than all other countries in the world combined. That does not even begin to include the illegal immigrants that we get. Now, how do you go about uniting all of these people into a "blended" family. How do you get them to assimilate? You want them to be able to keep some of their culture, but at the same time "can't we all just get along?" You have to understand, if one family just came from Israel and one from Egypt and they moved in next door to each other, we don't want a bloodbath on our hands here. By having these "American" traditions, it is something that everyone "can" do no matter what. It's the Fourth of July, it's a national holiday, go out and watch the fireworks with your neighbor and forget for one night that you have been sworn to kill him as your life long enemy. There's time enough to hate him tomorrow.

The Judge at my hubby's Citizenship ceremony said something like ... today you become American. You are not Irish American or Russian American or Central American, you are American.

Now, that really doesn't work, except... when we say our pledge or sing our anthem or on national holidays. For in those few moments, that is when we forget all the negativity about who we are supposed to dislike or kill and we remember that we are all "united."