Thread: Политические дискуссии на разные темы (оф-топик от темы "The crisis in Syria")

I'm about to log off for today, but I remembered to look up something on Википедия and I wanted to post it -- the Russian translation of the (so-called) "Prayer of St. Francis":

Господи, сделай руки мои проявлением Твоего мира,

и туда, где ненависть, дай мне принести Любовь,

и туда, где обида, дай мне принести Прощение,

и туда, где рознь, дай мне принести Единство,

и туда, где заблуждение, дай мне принести Истину,

и туда, где сомнение, дай мне принести Веру,

и туда, где отчаяние, дай мне принести Надежду,

и туда, где мрак, дай мне принести Свет,

и туда, где горе, дай мне принести Радость.

Помоги мне, Господи,

не столько искать утешения, сколько утешать,

не столько искать понимания, сколько понимать,

не столько искать любви, сколько любить.

Ибо кто отдает — тот получает,

кто забывает себя — вновь себя обретает,

кто прощает — тому прощается,

кто умирает — тот возрождается в Вечной жизни.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I'm about to log off for today, but I remembered to look up something on Википедия and I wanted to post it -- the Russian translation of the (so-called) "Prayer of St. Francis":

Господи, сделай руки мои проявлением Твоего мира,

и туда, где ненависть, дай мне принести Любовь,

и туда, где обида, дай мне принести Прощение,

и туда, где рознь, дай мне принести Единство,

и туда, где заблуждение, дай мне принести Истину,

и туда, где сомнение, дай мне принести Веру,

и туда, где отчаяние, дай мне принести Надежду,

и туда, где мрак, дай мне принести Свет,

и туда, где горе, дай мне принести Радость.

Помоги мне, Господи,

не столько искать утешения, сколько утешать,

не столько искать понимания, сколько понимать,

не столько искать любви, сколько любить.

Ибо кто отдает — тот получает,

кто забывает себя — вновь себя обретает,

кто прощает — тому прощается,

кто умирает — тот возрождается в Вечной жизни.

Я не очень религиозная, но вообще я согласна с этим словами. Спасибо!

**Can someone delete the first of my repeat posts? For some reason a second post was created when I tried to edit the first one. Letting Falc know of this error. thanks!

Originally Posted by Deborski

Я согласна, что это риторика. Я не люблю реторику, но что делать? Вот наши руководители так говорят постояно. Я предпочитаю, чтобы они говорили прямо и честно, но это лишь мечта.

Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм , который я тут наблюдаю… и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

Горький катаклизм - YouTube

Классика

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

Горький катаклизм - YouTube

Классика

Ахахахаха!
Смеялась. Спасибо за это!

PS - Это из фильмы "Кин Дза Дза"?

Боб Уайтман - специально для Вас:

Originally Posted by Deborski

По-моему, Путин иногда прав, а иногда не прав, и всё.

Как и все люди
Политик должен думать прежде всего об интересах страны. Прав он или нет, это понятие растяжимое, нельзя понравится всем

Originally Posted by Basil77

he and his buddies have their families living in Europe and USA, keep their money there, their children are getting education there, they have real estate there etc. They just using Russia as a "milk cow" to gain their well-being, but are planning to live elsewhere.

That's disgusting if it's true. He claims to be a Christian as well. Maybe he should pick up his Bible and take a look at the ten commandments for starters! And while I'm at it; the rest of the people in Russia might want to read the bit where Jesus tells people to actually pay their taxes. ("Render unto Ceasar...")
Rather than stealing from their own country and moving the money abroad. Serves them right to have lost money in Cyprus in that case!

Moscow looks so affluent on TV though! Seems you can have a very glamorous lifestyle in Russia nowadays, so why are they looking abroad? Looking at news shots from there, people look more glamorous than any capital city in Western Europe. Or maybe they just shoot the nice parts and the good looking people (?!)

However -- I live in a very affluent part of South West London, and there are definitely some extremely wealth Russians living here. No idea what they might be doing in London. The women seem very materialistic and superficial and they stand out because they dress much better than anyone. Not a lot of people, but a few. You need to be extremely rich to rent or own a house here (I just rent a small flat right now). There is a small Russian nursery school.

And like you say, a lot of Russian people send their children to boarding school in the UK. There was a long article in the paper about it recently. (silly, pretentious and not necessary - I pity the kids. It's an illusion and it gives people a very skewed worldview. Plus, it's much better for children to live with their families. I know what I'm talking about in this respect)

Originally Posted by Hanna

That's disgusting if it's true. He claims to be a Christian as well. Maybe he should pick up his Bible and take a look at the ten commandments for starters! And while I'm at it; the rest of the people in Russia might want to read the bit where Jesus tells people to actually pay their taxes. ("Render unto Ceasar...")
Rather than stealing from their own country and moving the money abroad. Serves them right to have lost money in Cyprus in that case!

Moscow looks so affluent on TV though! Seems you can have a very glamorous lifestyle in Russia nowadays, so why are they looking abroad? Looking at news shots from there, people look more glamorous than any capital city in Western Europe. Or maybe they just shoot the nice parts and the good looking people (?!)

However -- I live in a very affluent part of South West London, and there are definitely some extremely wealth Russians living here. No idea what they might be doing in London. The women seem very materialistic and superficial and they stand out because they dress much better than anyone. Not a lot of people, but a few. You need to be extremely rich to rent or own a house here (I just rent a small flat right now). There is a small Russian nursery school.

And like you say, a lot of Russian people send their children to boarding school in the UK. There was a long article in the paper about it recently. (silly, pretentious and not necessary - I pity the kids. It's an illusion and it gives people a very skewed worldview. Plus, it's much better for children to live with their families. I know what I'm talking about in this respect)

Sounds a lot like the way America's most wealthy people live. They are in a world completely separate from the majority of us who can barely scrape together enough money to pay our mortgages, keep the electricity running, and feed and clothe our children.

It seems to be a human condition that wealthy people like to FLAUNT their wealth rather than help their neighbors. And while I certainly agree with the sentiment of "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" - unfortunately, at least here in America, it is the Christians who tend to be the biggest opponents of paying their fair share! They are the judgmental ones who live high on the hog and show off their mansions and fine clothing, while judging those who have not been as fortunate and doing everything in their vast power to take away the few scraps and social nets the poor have to cling to. And then they have the audacity to claim that taxes which pay for social services are a form of "robbery." Their motto seems to be "I got mine, screw you."

The wealthiest Russians made their millions during the 1990's by buying up all the factories and state-run stores and then investing their profits to make even more, while neglecting to help those who were starving and dying during the economic crisis. And where did they have the money to invest in the first place, I often wonder...

And where did they have the money to invest in the first place, I often wonder...

They didn't have any. They've got their hands on those companies either by using the flaws of the privatization laws or just plain usurping of the management positions. Most of them didn't invest anything to improve their profits either - instead they were claiming the remaining profit for themselves, leaving the rest of the employees with a tiny salary.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

They didn't have any. They've got their hands on those companies either by using the flaws of the privatization laws or just plain usurping of the management positions. Most of them didn't invest anything to improve their profits either - instead they were claiming the remaining profit for themselves, leaving the rest of the employees with a tiny salary.

Well that sounds a lot like America. lol

Originally Posted by Deborski

Sounds a lot like the way America's most wealthy people live. They are in a world completely separate from the majority of us who can barely scrape together enough money to pay our mortgages, keep the electricity running, and feed and clothe our children.

It seems to be a human condition that wealthy people like to FLAUNT their wealth rather than help their neighbors. And while I certainly agree with the sentiment of "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" - unfortunately, at least here in America, it is the Christians who tend to be the biggest opponents of paying their fair share! They are the judgmental ones who live high on the hog and show off their mansions and fine clothing, while judging those who have not been as fortunate and doing everything in their vast power to take away the few scraps and social nets the poor have to cling to. And then they have the audacity to claim that taxes which pay for social services are a form of "robbery." Their motto seems to be "I got mine, screw you."

The wealthiest Russians made their millions during the 1990's by buying up all the factories and state-run stores and then investing their profits to make even more, while neglecting to help those who were starving and dying during the economic crisis. And where did they have the money to invest in the first place, I often wonder...

Yeah exactly. What these Russians and some Americans are forgetting though, is that it's a bit tacky to flaunt your wealth too much if you have it. It's much more stylish to be understated about it. "Noblesse oblige" and all that. I'm not saying that I think old money is somehow better than new - I don't like uber rich people either way. But it's particularly bad if they rub it in other people's faces and are vulgar about it.

As for American Christians (the right wing people) I think they are nuts -- they mix up their politics with religion, and they don't even get it right. Where in the bible does it say that people should carry weapons and go bankrupt if they get sick?
It's obvious from the gospels that Jesus, while not a revolutionary or political activist, was in favour of social equality, inclusion and helping the poor. Acts and Paul's letters are really clear that the disciples as well as the early church were practically living in communes with no private possessions; sharing their incomes between them. Sometimes I wonder whether these right wing Christians in the USA are reading some other bible than me. I don't know where they get their crazy ideas from. They are living in a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah spreading it's values by every means available force across the world since WW2. Serving Mammon... and at the same time pointing fingers at Russia, the EU and demonising Moslems. And for people so keen on seeing the Apocalypse/Armageddon just around the corner, I'd be VERY careful to start any new wars in the the Middle East, rather than cheering them on and many of these Christians seem to be doing. [end rant]

sorry I'm being a horrible today, I have a headache and I have served Mammon all day today myself...... And it's giving me a very hard time.

Hanna: Sometimes I wonder whether these right wing Christians in the USA are reading some other bible than me. I don't know where they get their crazy ideas from.

They are. America's right-wingers have actually created their own "translation" of the Bible in an effort to "eliminate liberal bias." They deleted and changed certain scriptures, such as the one where Jesus says "forgive them father, for they know not what they do." Ironic, since these hypocrites have no idea what they are doing.

You can see the "Conservative Bible Project" right here: Conservative Bible Project - Conservapedia

Serving Mammon... and at the same time pointing fingers at Russia, the EU and demonising Moslems. And for people so keen on seeing the Apocalypse/Armageddon just around the corner, I'd be VERY careful to start any new wars in the the Middle East, rather than cheering them on and many of these Christians seem to be doing. [end rant]

Right wing bible-thumping neocons LOVE Putin right now. But they only love him because they hate Obama and they despise gays. Since Putin seems to be "against" Obama and gay people, they are suddenly all enamored with Russia. It's only a temporary love though, because the moment one of them makes a proposal for war and Putin opposes that, they will go right back to their Cold War mentality and start calling Russians "commies" again. I predict this will happen at some point after Obama formally cancels his own plans for invading Syria. It isn't that the right-wingers don't want war with Syria, they just don't like that it was Obama's idea. Once he backs off, they will propose it themselves, act like it was their idea in the first place, and then they will band together in lockstep to support it.

Right wingers love money, guns, wars and Chuck Norris, not necessarily in that order. Personally, I think these people watched "Red Dawn" too many times when they were little, and it addled their brains.

But that is one of the cool things about Russia and Putin. They are not trying to please anyone and they are not bowing to the US or being intimidated by all the threats. I do not always agree with what Russia does, but I respect Russia for standing on its own and I always have. Unlike these flash-in-the-pan neocons who are temporarily infatuated with Russian culture because they imagine it is somehow like their own, I have always loved Russia, long before loving Russia was cool or vogue, and I will probably continue to love Russia until the end of my days. Right now, America's left wing is divided about Russia and many of them despise Putin, so my views are not exactly popular. But they are my own views, and I do not feel I need to defend them from anybody. Maybe that is why I respect Russia so much.

yes. It's probably easier for yourself and me to have a positive view of Putin since we are not affected by any of his internal politics or any potential problems with the elections or the democracy process in Russia... And Lavrov, he's just sharp and very together.

I had zero respect for Russia and it's leaders in the 90s... and Gorbachev might have had good intentions, but he certainly messed up and let everyone down. Before that... well it's a different story, not worth bringing up, and I dont have strong views on it anyway.

But today; Russia is being pretty cool when it comes to foreign policy. I think it's showing integrity, adherence to principles and loyalty to its friends. Hope it ends up paying off.

Imagine if this initiative with the CMs actually stops the Syria war. It would go down in history as classic top notch diplomacy and people will eventually study it in Political Science classes at uni.



---- how interesting about the American Christians and their politically twisted bible. Never knew. Seriously they almost make me lose my faith.

Originally Posted by Hanna

yes. It's probably easier for yourself and me to have a positive view of Putin since we are not affected by any of his internal politics or any potential problems with the elections or the democracy process in Russia... And Lavrov, he's just sharp and very together.

I had zero respect for Russia and it's leaders in the 90s... and Gorbachev might have had good intentions, but he certainly messed up and let everyone down. Before that... well it's a different story, not worth bringing up, and I dont have strong views on it anyway.

But today; Russia is being pretty cool when it comes to foreign policy. I think it's showing integrity, adherence to principles and loyalty to its friends. Hope it ends up paying off.

Imagine if this initiative with the CMs actually stops the Syria war. It would go down in history as classic top notch diplomacy and people will eventually study it in Political Science classes at uni.

---- how interesting about the American Christians and their politically twisted bible. Never knew. Seriously they almost make me lose my faith.

The 90's were exactly the kind of mess I would expect, considering that the Soviet Union and its entire economy collapsed. The 90's were a time of horrible economic fallout from that, a time of anarchy and corruption. But what I admire is the strength and resilience of the Russian people who have managed to build their country back up in such a short time! Twenty years is not really such a long time for all that has been achieved there. I remember how dire things were right after the collapse of the Soviet Union, since I was living there when it happened and working за рублей. So when I see how much Russia has grown, it actually fills me with a kind of awe and pride. Those are my friends who achieved that!

The only things I do not like is how far the pendulum has swung in favor of oligarchy and capitalism. There was a lot of corruption in the old USSR, but there was also a lot of good - such as the guarantee every student was educated, free of charge, and then placed in a career afterwards. One downfall of capitalism, among many others, is that student debt becomes the norm and job placement is no longer guaranteed. It's a huge problem here in the US, where students owe tens of thousands of dollars upon graduation, yet the only work they can find is at Starbuck's or McDonald's and some of them will be burdened with their college loans for the rest of their lives.

There are ups and downs with every system we devise. I'd like to see us start holding on to all the ups and throwing out all the downs, rather than throwing out entire systems. So many in the US hate socialism, when they really know nothing about it or how it works. And at the same time they embrace capitalism and believe in nonsense like "trickle down economics" - the idea that if we give more money to those who are already so wealthy it's almost beyond reckoning, that somehow the wealthy will put all that money back into the economy and it will "trickle down" to the poor via job creation. It's a bullshit theory. What really happens is that the wealthy HOARD the money. They do not use it to create jobs. They use it to create more money for themselves. So we see the middle class shrinking, while the gap between rich and poor grows exponentially. America's top CEO's make more than 400 times the median salary! It's almost impossible to imagine the vast amount of wealth which has been accumulated in the hands of such a small group of people. And for what? They do not give back, and they fight tooth and nail against having to contribute their fair share.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Ну, по моему, большинство людей его не любят, и по-этому они не читают его слова. Наверное, они слишком много смотрели фильм "Red Dawn" когда они были молодыми и помогать им нельзя.

Как сказал кто-то в фильме Аватар: "Мы пытались учить небесных людей. Это трудно — наполнить чашу, которая полна". Чаша среднего американца полна, и новая информация не усваивается.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Лично я не люблю законы против геев (как Вы уже знаете), но всё равно я согласна с Путином как касается Сирии.

Таким образом, Путин Вам кажется не целостной личностью, и отдельные его поступки противоречат друг другу (так как иногда служат добру, а иногда злу).
Мне же он кажется цельным человеком, и противоречий в его поступках я не вижу. Не знаю, что побудило его подписать этот закон о пропаганде. Возможно, его попросил об этом Патриарх. А Путин относится к Церкви (и к традиционной морали) как к одной из опор нашей страны. Я понимаю, что для Запада это всё выглядит не выигрышно, но это не имеет значения, так как закон решает внутренние проблемы.

Originally Posted by Hanna

That's disgusting if it's true.

Hanna, в нашей стране есть мода на цинизм. Это наверное происходит от крестьянской морали, когда в любых действиях соседа приято предполагать опасность, корысть, обман. Эту мораль я видел у малообразованных людей, вышедших из деревни. Эту же мораль сейчас проповедуют их дети и внуки, относительно молодые люди, причисляющие себя к интеллигенции. Во всём, что делается, они видят плохое.
Примеры такой морали:
1. Новые правила дорожного движения? - Чтобы дорожным инспекторам брать больше взяток.
2. Участвует в выборах? - Чтобы воровать.
3. Пошёл в церковь? - Украл, теперь грехи замаливает.
4. Женился? - Наверняка из-за её денег.
5. Занимается благотворительностью? - Для маскировки. Чтобы легче было воровать.
И так далее.

Originally Posted by Юрка

Как сказал кто-то в фильме Аватар: "Мы пытались учить небесных людей. Это трудно — наполнить чашу, которая полна". Чаша среднего американца полна, и новая информация не усваивается.

Юрка, пожалуйста не обижайтесь, но я могу сказать тоже самое о русских! Я считаю, что много людей такие везде в мире, и не только американцы.

Таким образом, Путин Вам кажется не целостной личностью, и отдельные его поступки противоречат друг другу (так как иногда служат добру, а иногда злу).
Мне же он кажется цельным человеком, и противоречий в его поступках я не вижу. Не знаю, что побудило его подписать этот закон о пропаганде. Возможно, его попросил об этом Патриарх. А Путин относится к Церкви (и к традиционной морали) как к одной из опор нашей страны. Я понимаю, что для Запада это всё выглядит не выигрышно, но это не имеет значения, так как закон решает внутренние проблемы.

Вот например. Вы думаете, что мы "аморальные" за того, что мы не мешаем геев открыто жить, потому-что это не "традиционно" или "религиозно", а я считаю что религия не всегда права. Наоборот, религия сделала большой вред на протяжении веков. Я совсем не хочу, чтобы наше правительство было религиозним. Смотрите на Сирии! Там большой ужас, потому-что религиозные фанатики борются за власть. Законы от "религиозные морали" могут быть самым репрессивними.

Вы смотрите на Америкие и увидите наших проблемах, но вы не отделите хорошее от плохого. Тоже самое, как американцы о России.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Юрка, пожалуйста не обижайтесь, но я могу сказать тоже самое о русских! Я считаю, что много людей такие везде в мире, и не только американцы.



Вот например. Вы думаете, что мы "аморальные" за того, что мы не мешаем геев открыто жить, потому-что это не "традиционно" или "религиозно", а я считаю что религия не всегда права. Наоборот, религия сделала большой вред на протяжении веков. Я совсем не хочу, чтобы наше правительство было религиозним. Смотрите на Сирии! Там большой ужас, потому-что религиозные фанатики борются за власть. Законы от "религиозные морали" могут быть самым репрессивними.

Вы смотрите на Америкие и увидите наших проблемах, но вы не отделите хорошее от плохого. Тоже самое, как американцы о России.

Деб, мое мнение таково, что и в России и в США есть радикально настроенные люди которые будут ненавидеть общества с другими ценностями чем у них, а есть и умеренно настроенные люди которые пытаются скорее понять чем осуждать; единственное, я бы сказал что в США первая категория (радикально настроенные люди) скорее действуют по их личным убеждениям, а в России среди них много тех падающих жертвами государственной пропаганды.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Деб, мое мнение таково, что и в России и в США есть радикально настроенные люди которые будут ненавидеть общества с другими ценностями чем у них, а есть и умеренно настроенные люди которые пытаются скорее понять чем осуждать; единственное, я бы сказал что в США первая категория (радикально настроенные люди) скорее действуют по их личным убеждениям, а в России среди них много тех падающих жертвами государственной пропаганды.

Вот, с этим я согласна. К тому же, есть глупые люди везде в мире, и патриотические люди, кто считают, что их странна всегда права, не смотра на том, что их страна убивают людей, угнетает людей, и так далее.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Вот, с этим я согласна. К тому же, есть глупые люди везде в мире, и патриотические люди, кто считают, что их странна всегда права, не смотра на том, что их страна убивают людей, угнетает людей, и так далее.

Я понимаю на кого вы намекаете =) Хех. Но верх глупости - это когда чья-то страна угнетает СВОИХ людей внутри, а некоторые из них (людей) считают, что так и должно быть.