Thread: ребёнка / дети

Originally Posted by TATY

For example, there are people on my course, who started studying at uni in 2004, have just spent a whole year in Russia, have been taught a million times that an unstressed O is not pronounced O, have heard it a billion times in Russia, but still will say "moloko".

This is really weird. Like if someone continuing to pronounce 'bear' like 'beer' because there is 'ea' like in 'fear'.

Originally Posted by TATY

Teachers have to strike a balance between over-correcting students and under-correcting students. By that I mean, if a teacher corrects every little mistake the student makes, and at the beginner's level that's a lot, then the student will become demoralised, and also it would just take too much time. But if the teacher doesn't correc the student enough, then the student won't learn correct pronunciation. I find most teachers don't correct students enough.

As far as things are concerned, this is a big topic to discuss. I think that this is the problem of Western education. The perosnality of a student is more valuable there than at our place. And, as a consequence, they also grant more freedom to students, and the latter improvise making numerous mistakes.

Originally Posted by TATY

For example, there are people on my course, who started studying at uni in 2004, have just spent a whole year in Russia, have been taught a million times that an unstressed O is not pronounced O, have heard it a billion times in Russia, but still will say "moloko".

A friend of a friend who supposedly studied Russian at uni, does this, but he takes it one step further. The O he uses isn't even a Russian O, it's a Southern/ Estuary English 'O'. So the Os in moloko all rhyme with the O in the English word "row" (what you do in a boat, not what you do with your wife), as spoken by someone from Sussex. Ugh.

Obviously, this is not confined to that one vowel, it's the same right across the board. He basically just sounds like someone reading a translit.

The funny thing is, native speakers can't understand a word he says, but British people who also speak Russian can understand him with a bit of difficulty.

Originally Posted by Rtyom

As far as things are concerned, this is a big topic to discuss. I think that this is the problem of Western education. The perosnality of a student is more valuable there than at our place. And, as a consequence, they also grant more freedom to students, and the latter improvise making numerous mistakes.

Wow, that's quite a sweeping statement! On what data do you base this? And what is this "western education" of which you speak anyway?

Originally Posted by scotcher

Originally Posted by Rtyom

As far as things are concerned, this is a big topic to discuss. I think that this is the problem of Western education. The personality of a student is more valuable there than at our place. And, as a consequence, they also grant more freedom to students, and the latter improvise making numerous mistakes.

Wow, that's quite a sweeping statement! On what data do you base this? And what is this "western education" of which you speak anyway?

Люди говорят.)
У вас такого пиетета, как у нас, нет, отношения больше похожи если не на дружбу, то на сотрудничество.
У нас обстановка скованнее, а уж чтобы кто-то задумывался о том, как бы личность студента не задеть? Смешно. "Учитель всегда прав. Если учитель не прав, смотри пункт первый".
Скажешь, заблуждение?)
Извините, что не на английском.

Originally Posted by scotcher

Originally Posted by Rtyom

As far as things are concerned, this is a big topic to discuss. I think that this is the problem of Western education. The perosnality of a student is more valuable there than at our place. And, as a consequence, they also grant more freedom to students, and the latter improvise making numerous mistakes.

Wow, that's quite a sweeping statement! On what data do you base this? And what is this "western education" of which you speak anyway?

I know exactly Rtyom is saying. As far as American education, anyway. It is true, and I imagine England and Australia are not far behind.

Originally Posted by Rtyom

Originally Posted by TATY

Teachers have to strike a balance between over-correcting students and under-correcting students. By that I mean, if a teacher corrects every little mistake the student makes, and at the beginner's level that's a lot, then the student will become demoralised, and also it would just take too much time. But if the teacher doesn't correc the student enough, then the student won't learn correct pronunciation. I find most teachers don't correct students enough.

As far as things are concerned, this is a big topic to discuss. I think that this is the problem of Western education. The perosnality of a student is more valuable there than at our place. And, as a consequence, they also grant more freedom to students, and the latter improvise making numerous mistakes.

It's nothing to do with Western Education, well, at least not when we are talking about correcting pronunciation. I helped out at English lessons in a Russian university and the teacher, a Russian, had near-perfect English pronunciation. The Russian students' pronunciation varried. When I had converstation sessions with them I didn't correct every mistake. Because for them practically every vowel was not quite right. I only corrected them when the word was unrecognisable. or when it sounded like a different world. The Russian teacher did the same. If you correct every little pronunciation mistake it would take 10 minutes to say one sentence.

My Ukrainian teacher over-corrects, and it drives me insane. Speaking a foreign language requires confidence and when someone pointd out a mistake in every word you say, how can you become confident in speaking that language?

Originally Posted by TATY

My Ukrainian teacher over-corrects, and it drives me insane. Speaking a foreign language requires confidence and when someone pointd out a mistake in every word you say, how can you become confident in speaking that language?

Тяжело в ученьи, легко в бою. (с)
I prefer being over-corrected, than corrected not enough. It's better to learn now, when you're a beginner, than to speak confidently, but incoherently later, when it's hard to relearn.

Well, I remember filling in questionnaire that was called 'Needs and requirements analysis'. There was the point 'When you are having a duscussion in your group should the teacher:
- interrupt you every time you make a mistake?
- interrupt you only if you keep making the same mistake?
- never interrupt, but note down the mistakes for explanation later?'

The last variant seems to be the way out.)

One of my teachers did so.

When you stop the conversation, your teacher asks you to translate some phrases, pronounce some words etc. Making sure that you do make the mistake, he or she explains it.


Correct my mistakes, please, if there are any.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

I prefer being over-corrected, than corrected not enough.

Oh, yes! Me too.

Well, I see it that way: when students discuss smth, i.e. the point of exercise is to learn expressing their thoughts, the interruptions should be made only when the student is at obvious loss and needs advice or correction.

But when you read aloud a grammar excersise (like we did at school) or answer a question, i.e. communicate solely with a teacher he/she should correct every mistake you make (and in pronouncation too).

It's not as discouraging as you may think, because thus in a couple of months number of pronounsation corrections needed decreases dramatically, because students have already grasped the basic conceptions.
If they are not corrected during that period they'll stick to their mispronounsation for years.

PS. Correct my mistakes, please.

TATY, к сожалению, я не знаю, насколько хорошо ты говоришь на русском и украинском, так что не могу судить о ситуации.))

Originally Posted by Zaya

Well, I remember filling in questionnaire that was called 'Needs and requirements analysis'. There was the point 'When you are having a duscussion in your group should the teacher:
- interrupt you every time you make a mistake?
- interrupt you only if you keep making the same mistake?
- never interrupt, but note down the mistakes for explanation later?'

The last variant seems to be the way out.)

One of my teachers did so.

When you stop the conversation, your teacher asks you to translate some phrases, pronounce some words etc. Making sure that you do make the mistake, he or she explains it.


Correct my mistakes, please, if there are any.

Ah yes! In Saint Petersburg one teacher wrote down our mistakes and told us after. That was a good way, as she could write stuff on the boards and explain the mistakes in more detail.

Originally Posted by Zaya

TATY, к сожалению, я не знаю, насколько хорошо ты говоришь на русском и украинском, так что не могу судить о ситуации.))

Russians always complimented me on my accent. It is good. But I am very interested in phonetics and therefore perhaps that's why my Russian accent is better than other peoples'.

Originally Posted by scotcher

Originally Posted by Rtyom

As far as things are concerned, this is a big topic to discuss. I think that this is the problem of Western education. The perosnality of a student is more valuable there than at our place. And, as a consequence, they also grant more freedom to students, and the latter improvise making numerous mistakes.

Wow, that's quite a sweeping statement! On what data do you base this? And what is this "western education" of which you speak anyway?

By "Western" education I meant American style. My data are based on a small research in America. It was sort of comparative between Russian and American styles. I have no personal experience but I derived big knowledge of it from this detailed scholarly analysis.

Originally Posted by TATY

My Ukrainian teacher over-corrects, and it drives me insane. Speaking a foreign language requires confidence and when someone pointd out a mistake in every word you say, how can you become confident in speaking that language?

That's true. Anyway, a teacher's aim is to seek for compromise. Working as a teacher, I never overcorrect.

Originally Posted by Rtyom

Originally Posted by scotcher

Originally Posted by Rtyom

As far as things are concerned, this is a big topic to discuss. I think that this is the problem of Western education. The perosnality of a student is more valuable there than at our place. And, as a consequence, they also grant more freedom to students, and the latter improvise making numerous mistakes.

Wow, that's quite a sweeping statement! On what data do you base this? And what is this "western education" of which you speak anyway?

By "Western" education I meant American style. My data are based on a small research in America. It was sort of comparative between Russian and American styles. I have no personal experience but I derived big knowledge of it from this detailed scholarly analysis.

Right, fair enough, but you were replying to something Tatu said concerning an English university, not an American one, generalising them both as "western", which is absurd. "The West" is not some social gestalt, it is a vague geoplitical grouping of many different countries and cultures. It makes no more sense to talk about "western education" than about "western food".

Yes, I see it now. As usual, it's my inattention. I'm sorry.

Speaking a foreign language requires confidence and when someone pointd out a mistake in every word you say, how can you become confident in speaking that language?

And that's exactly where CDs like Pimsleur come in.

In the classroom setting the teacher should be correcting the pronunciation mercilessly during the early stages. There is no point in learning everything wrong and then having to re-learn it all again later. Bad habits are hard to lose!

Originally Posted by scotcher

Originally Posted by Rtyom

Originally Posted by scotcher

Originally Posted by Rtyom

As far as things are concerned, this is a big topic to discuss. I think that this is the problem of Western education. The perosnality of a student is more valuable there than at our place. And, as a consequence, they also grant more freedom to students, and the latter improvise making numerous mistakes.

Wow, that's quite a sweeping statement! On what data do you base this? And what is this "western education" of which you speak anyway?

By "Western" education I meant American style. My data are based on a small research in America. It was sort of comparative between Russian and American styles. I have no personal experience but I derived big knowledge of it from this detailed scholarly analysis.

Right, fair enough, but you were replying to something Tatu said concerning an English university, not an American one, generalising them both as "western", which is absurd. "The West" is not some social gestalt, it is a vague geoplitical grouping of many different countries and cultures. It makes no more sense to talk about "western education" than about "western food".

Well I do have personal experience in this. The Russian kids I work with are nothing like other kids. It is clear that their Russian schooling was based on actual learning the old way. The West, and I mean all of it, is clearly more affected by the Politically Correct policies born of the hippy 60s generation.

Originally Posted by DDT

Well I do have personal experience in this. The Russian kids I work with are nothing like other kids. It is clear that their Russian schooling was based on actual learning the old way. The West, and I mean all of it, is clearly more affected by the Politically Correct policies born of the hippy 60s generation.

Wait wait wait.

All of it? Just like that?

All educational systems (assuming that each system is itself uniform, which they aren't) in the dozens of countries that make up the vague geopolitical grouping cum meta-society known as "the west" (no matter whose definition of "the west" you are using), are all uniform enough to have exactly the same problem, and you really have enough experience of all those systems or people who have gone through these systems to state this categorically?

And you don't think you are making sweeping generalisations?

Hehe, nah sorry, I think you're talking out of your antipodean date.