ребёнка / дети
What is the difference? Thanks.
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ребёнка / дети
What is the difference? Thanks.
ребёнка — singular number, Genetive/Accusative case.
дети — plural number, Nominative case.
Sorry. I didn't learn English (my native language) this way, and I'm not learning Russian this way. I don't know anything about Genetive/Accusative, Nominative cases, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtyom
I learned that for the word "child", the singular is ребёнoк and the plural is дети. But then later I saw, "четыре ребёнка". Why is it this instead of "четыре дети".
Perhaps most people learn by the "textbook" method, but that doesn't work for me. I am using Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone, and they don't waste time explaining all the technicalities. Thanks for your help.
Notice when you count things in English, you say
one CHILD
two CHILDREN
Well Russian sorta kinda works like that.
one child = один ребёнок
two children = два ребёнка
three children = три ребёнка
four children = четыре ребёнка
five children = пять детей
six children = шесть детей
...
Notice the word ребёнок changes to ребёнка just like "child" changes to "children" when going from one to two.
But in Russian, ребёнка changes to детей when you go from "four" to "five"
Well, it's too bad. :) I believe it will take one twice the time to learn Russian without any idea about cases. And it definitely makes explanations longer. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum
It is really difficult for an adult to learn Russian without learning grammar. And Russian certainly has a lot of it! I learned Russian the normal way in school, and I would suggest you pick up a textbook that explains grammar too.
Otherwise with Pimsleur I think you just have to memorize четыре ребёнка but пять детей. And then wait till they want to explain why. Sticking with Pimsleur alone will leave you with a lot of questions of this type.
It is a lot easier learning the language's grammar -- in this case we just have one grammatical rule: after numbers 2-3-4 (and compounds ending in them, such as 22, 33) use the genitive singular of a noun, after 5 and above use the genitive plural.
Ahhh, I see. It works like time:Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow1
один час
два часа
три часа
четыре часа
пять часов
I like your explaination, shadow1. And your didn't need to mention cases. No offense, gRomoZeka, but I don't think it's necessary to learn about cases. After all, I'm sure you were speaking fluent English (or whatever your native language) at the age of 5 or 6, without knowing anything about cases.
But then again, I'm just a beginner and can't really know how it's best to learn a new language. For now I'll try it this way, but I might convert later if I must.
Chaika, I sorta understand what your saying. I don't mean that grammar is not important, but my idea is that it's just as easy (for me, at least) to memorize четыре ребёнка but пять детей. But you are right...I do have questions like this. But that's where MR forum comes in. :) Nice people to help!Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika
I do have New Penguin Russian book, and perhaps I will study it on the side, while doing Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone. The more sources, the better, I suppose.
Cases in Russian are the same significance as the strict rule of SVO (subject-verb-object) is in English.Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum
Well, actually not just time and children, but ALL words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum
I agree. But my 6-year-old daughter knows how to speak near-perfect English. And she has no idea about this strict rule. She doesn't even know what a verb is yet. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
My point is...I think you can learn about cases without even knowing the names of the cases. But again, I admit that I'm a beginner and I don't really know what I'm talking about. :)
LOL. Well, yeah. I don't know many words yet. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow1
But your 6 year old is hearing 1,000s of English words every day, spoken in context, complete with real life situations. And what is more, if your child could have read and understood a text book on English grammar she would have learned quicker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum
Mind of a child differs from one of the adult. And to achieve this near-perfectness she spent every moment of her life actively learning English and hearing English everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum
Are you going to give up at least 6 years of your life exclusively to Russian? :)
Anyway, good luck. ;)
You all make good points. Perhaps I will rethink my plan. At the moment, I just started Rosetta Stone and I'm going through Pimsleur for the second time. I guess my problem is that when I'm using a textbook I get so overwhelmed with the technical jargon, I find that I'm getting frustrated and give up. And many times the vocab lists are too long to retain many of the words.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
As I said before, perhaps I will get out my old Penguin book and trudge my way through while I'm using the multi-media things. Thanks everybody for your help and advise...I'm sure I'll have many more questions.
There's a lot to be said for the way learning a second language can teach you a lot about your own language that you didn't know previously, but you won't get that benefit without learning the theory (ie the grammar) rather than just trying to learn the practice.
It sounds like you have had all the resources at hand to learn with. I think it is time to open the New Penguin book.
Well, it seems to get very high marks here at MR. I suppose it must be a good book.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
And then back from 20 to 21. And then again...Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow1
Сто один ребенок, сто одиннадцать детей.
But I hope you manage to learn Russian to some extent by some more easy way than 6 year long total immersion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum
Yes, but explaining something to somebody about cases is more simple using case name than 'uhmm that stiff that comes with 'кого/чего'Quote:
My point is...I think you can learn about cases without even knowing the names of the cases.
Platinum, are you going just to remember all the forms of all the new Russian words without knowing the rules of their changing ('how it works') and intense practice? :D Then you're a brave person.
I'm afraid I'm not good enough at English to explain such peculiarities of the language but I would like to help you next time (giving examples etc.) if I can.
Unfortunately we can't learn languages as quickly and easily as children anymore. :wink: And what of no small importance they assimilate information otherwise. :)
Did you mean "accumulate"? Yes, they accumulate knowledge by adsorbing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaya
Exactly.Quote:
Yes, they accumulate knowledge by adsorbing it.
О, меня исправляют.) Спасибо.)
Well, I tried to choose the word that goes with 'information' because I didn't know any appropriate collocations and found this sentence in my dictionary:
to assimilate
1 [transitive]
to completely understand and begin to use new ideas, information etc [= absorb]
Does it sound oddly?
Practically, I tried to translate "воспринимают информацию по-другому" and I meant both adults and children so I couldn't use 'absorb' (впитывают)).
"Assimilate" is fine in that context (in the meaning: to absorb information), but the sentence itself isn't grammatically correct.Quote:
And what of no small importance they assimilate information otherwise.
а такжеQuote:
Originally Posted by shadow1
двое детей
трое детей
четверо детей
"жена и трое детей", например :wink:
Could somebody correct all the mistakes in my English messages?
I think you are pretty good in English, better than Peter the Great! That is quite a comparison! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaya
Thank you, kalinka_vinnie!
I meant conjugation and declension (всё вместе).Quote:
their changing [conjugation] ('how it works')
Also, it should be "absorbing". To ABsorb means to soak within. ADsorb means to cling to the surface. Sorry, I'm a chemist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
Thanks for your comments. Before, I thought I might actually have a chance to be successful with Russian. I thought that with this software i might actually learn. But you all have convinced me that I'll get nowhere without learning the thing I dispise most...grammar!
Well, I'm not giving up, but I'm no longer optimistic. I'll be back with more questions later....if you all are willing. :)
This is why Pimsleur is rubbish. Grammar is necessary!
Yes, use Penguin, it's the best. With Russian, you are not going to make serious progress without sitting down for some hardcore grammar sessions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum
Not just here. Check the reviews at Amazon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum
It is not rubbish. It is still a valuable tool for learning. Anyone who used Pimsleur before starting Russian in University was miles ahead of those who didn't. And those who didn't use it had the worst pronunciation in class ever. They were unbearable. I have heard speak, third year Russian students that had never listened to a CD that sounded like they were speaking complete babble, even though they knew all the right words.Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
I strongly agree. Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone are great (altough VERY expensive). The words and phrases I learn from both methods are solid. I will certainly never forget them. But I am now starting to see that it will only take me so far. I will need more to be able to figure out how to say things outside of their vocabulary lists. It seems to me that a person should use as many sources as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
If you come to a spot where you don't know the grammar, you can sometimes figure it out logically....
В школе заболела преподавательница русского языка и поставили на замену математика (М).
Ну, значит, приходит он на урок к ученикам (У).
М: Какая тема последнего задания?
У: Падежи.
М: Повторяем падежи:
Именительный: кто, что.
Родительный: кого, чего.
Дательный: кому, ...?
(пишет на доске)
кто/что
кого/чего
кому/?
М: А дальше кто знает?
У: Не помним (прикалываются).
М: Тогда выведем.
Пусть неизвестное слово Х, тогда:
кто/что
кого/чего
кому/Х
составляем пропорцию:
кого/чего = кому/Х
(го) сокращается, получаем:
ко/че = кому/Х
аналогично сокращаем (ко), получаем:
1/че = му/Х
Переумножим:
1 * Х = че * му
Получаем:
Х = чему
У: ...???...!!!...
=:^)
I used the Penguin course to the end before uni, and even after into the second year I knew all the grammar they were teaching me. I know the problem of bad pronuncation. At our uni there are 4th year (final) students who can't be uderstood by Russians due to they abismal pronuncation.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
Don't they teach you correct pronouncation at the university? I think that's the first thing the course usually begins with...Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
Yes, of course we are taught how to pronounce Russian correctly but it's not that simple. It takes a long time to get good pronuncation, teachers can't spend the whole course trying to get people to pronounce things properly. Some people just never learn as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Teachers have to strike a balance between over-correcting students and under-correcting students. By that I mean, if a teacher corrects every little mistake the student makes, and at the beginner's level that's a lot, then the student will become demoralised, and also it would just take too much time. But if the teacher doesn't correc the student enough, then the student won't learn correct pronunciation. I find most teachers don't correct students enough.
Some students, no matter how many times they are corrected just don't learn, and don't pronounce things properly.
Like lesson 1 or 2 of any Russian course at univeristy, students are taught that an unstressed O is not pronounced O, but like a weak A sound. This will be repeated numerous times throughout the years of study but many students still pronounce an unstressed O as O.
For example, there are people on my course, who started studying at uni in 2004, have just spent a whole year in Russia, have been taught a million times that an unstressed O is not pronounced O, have heard it a billion times in Russia, but still will say "moloko".
Thanks, TATY. I agree. The balance between over-correcting students and under-correcting is hard to achieve. While nowadays it's common to correct students as rare as possible to not to discourage them, back in the USSR there was tendency to overcorrect.
At first years of English classes (7-8 y/o kids) we literally couldn't say a phrase without being interrupted half a dozen times by a teacher. It's probably not the best way, but I must say that knowledge sticks.
Especially when the corrections were made in our teacher unique manner: "What's the matter with you, people! Ivanov is the only one who's pronounced "there are" right. "R", don't forget "r-r-r"!!! *everybody stares at Ivanov darkly* :lol: )
PS. И кто-нибудь, исправляйте же мои ошибки! :)