Printable View
Привет.
Сегодня утром я разговаривал с клиентом и я использовал фразу:
"Я строю планы для будущего"
Конечно, он поправил меня:
"Я строю планы на будущее".
My problem is that Russians don't have a particula word for the word "for" (you also use the word "за").
My question is obvious: Is there any rule of when to use "за", "на" and "для" or I just have to memorize the thousand dialogues.
Well, I don't know if there is a rule of when you should use which word. But, what I do know, that these prepositions have different meanings. Let me explain.
Я строю планы для будущего - This sentence actually conveys that you make plans so that the future can use them and benefit from them, which makes no sense. However, if you say:
Я строю планы для него - it would work okay, because he can be the one who will use the plans and benefit from them.
Я строю планы за будущее - This sentence sounds as if the future was supposed to make those plans, but you make them instead of the future. Let's compose a correct sentence with за:
Я работаю сегодня за Тома - means that you do Tom's work today instead of Tom or, for some reason, Tom couldn't come to work today and you replaced him at his work for today.
Я строю планы на будущее - It looks okay, because, in this case, на implies moving towards something, so that means that your plans are going to go towards the future, when they have reached the future the time to use the plans comes. Another correct example with на for you:
Я иду на пляж - I'm going towards/to the beech.
I hope it helps in any way
One way I remember some differences of the general usages is that для has a meaning like " for the benefit of " So can use when has to do with for benefit of a person.
So it is for a subset of usages to translate for. It doesn't mean for as in directional or other kinds of senses of for.
на isn't used very often to mean "for" - the only example I can think of is фото на документы and it's just that the logic of the Russian is different, focusing on where the photos go ("on the documents") rather than what their purpose is ("for documents")
за is used for some specific uses of "for" - paying for something (платить за), receiving punishment for something (его посадили за убийство), substituting for someone else (like in iCake's example above), asking "who do you take me for?" (ты меня за кого принимаешь) and so on..
In general I think it makes sense to memorize most of these phrases rather than try to translate words like "for" since this word has so many different uses in English
Ie. "For example" например
"prepare for" готовиться к
"look/search for" искать
"this instrument is used for measuring temperature" - этот инструмент используется для измерения температуры
Мне кажется, что планы на будущее/ на завтра/ на отпуск/ на выходные - это сложившаяся форма. Да, надо запомнить.
There is a pattern but it is more intuitive then formal.
Yes, in Russian "X для Y" implies that X is expected to use Y actively. В and на marks a kind of passive destination or target. I am not sure about the way you can use "за" instead of "for".
Спасибо для ваших ответов (Надеюсь что я использовал "для" правильно в этом предложении).
Я нашел что в, для, за + Винительный, за + Творительный, на, о, по + Дательный и под принадлежат к Категории которая называется "Prepositions that denote purpose".
Your examples are extremely helpful. Especially, the idea of beneficiary. Однако я понял что я должен запомнить много фраз.
We say спасибо за + accusative. The rest of your Russian is good
Now I see what did you mean with "за" = "for".Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio1986
This meaning of "за" is "in exchange for". (Я купил танк за три рубля.)
Here the difference "за" vs "для" is in the direction of casual connection.
"X для Y (Gen)" = first X then will be Y. Y is either an activity or someone who is able to use X (in some future activity).
"X за Y (Acc)" = first was Y then X. Y was an activity or a good and X is a pay-off in exchange for Y (compare to another meaning of "за" - "behind, after").
Some more rules of thumb for you. (In this case "for you" is "для вас", since you are supposed to USE those rules, you NEED them, and you somewhat BENEFIT from them).Quote:
Originally Posted by iCake
If you say "спасибо для ваших ответов" it sounds non-Russian of course, but I would like to underline what it means: it means as if your "спасибо" is needed for "our answers", as if "our answers" will use your "спасибо" in some way. That is why it sounds strange.
You can say "тетрадь для записей" (a writing-book for (making) notes), because this "тетрадь" is intended to be USED for making notes in it. One needs "тетрадь" to make notes. So, "тетрадь для записей" is OK.
You can say "книга для детей" (a book for children), since this book is intended to be used by children.
You can say "стоянка для машин" (a parking for cars), since the cars are supposed to use this parking. This parking is needed for cars. Although, you can also say just "стоянка машин" (a parking of cars), which is correct too.
You can say "ручка для письма" (a pen for writing), because this pen is required for writing, it is used to write.
You can say "тарелка для супа" (a plate for soup), since this plate is going to be used to pour some soup in it, it is needed for soup. Do not confuse it with "тарелка супа" (a plate of soup). In this case, they are different: "тарелка супа" is a plate with soup in it. "Тарелка для супа" can be an empty plate.
Now if you compare "тетрадь для записей", "книга для детей", "стоянка для машин", "ручка для письма", "тарелка для супа" etc. you will see something in common in all of them.
And compare it with "спасибо для ответов". Do you feel it does not match the pattern above?
The preposition "за" has a different meaning. One of its meanings is "in exchange of something". You give "спасибо" in exchange of our answers. So, the right way to say it is "спасибо за ваши ответы!"
If you pay for something, you give money in exchange of what you buy: "заплатить за обучение" - to pay for education.
"Он платит мне 10 долларов в день за мою работу" - He pays me 10 dollars a day for my work.
"Я хочу вас поблагодарить за вашу помощь" - I want to thank you for your help.
You can also use "за" in noun+noun combinations:
"деньги за работу" is "money for work" (money which is paid in exchange of work)
"5 рублей за билет" is "5 roubles for a ticket"
"благодарность за услугу" is "gratitude for service"
And one more example to underline the difference between "для" and "за":
"деньги за работу" is a typical expression which means "money (paid) for work", i.e. it is money in exchange of someone's work.
"деньги для работы" is a bit strange, but theoretically possible. This one means "money you need for your work to be done". Imagine, your work involves bribing some powerful people :lol2: This is actually you job: you are a secret agent, and you bribe some officials, so you force them to make some "correct" decisions. Jokingly :) In this case, the money you need to do your secret job can be called "деньги для работы".
I've just found another funny example to illustrate the difference between "для" and "за":
Imagine the situation. I know, you are short of money, since you have been borrowed money from me constantly. One day, I see you holding a $100 bill. I ask in surprise: "Что это?" And you reply to me: "This is money for John". How would you say it in Russian?
1. Possibly, it is money you are going to pay to John for something. You did not pay him yet, but you have already reserved some money for this purpose. You say:
Это деньги для Джона.
This money is intended for John. He will benefit it. This money will not be yours any longer after you give it to John.
2. Это деньги за Джона.
Now, it means the following: in order to solve your money problem, you sold your friend John to slavery for $100:shock:, "деньги за Джона" is "money in exchange of John".
По этой причине я очень внимательны когда использую русский язык и иногда я предпочитаю не говорить по русский если даже знаю все слова.
Учить структуру русского языка очень трудно.
I just want to add the example to the "pay-off explanation": погибнуть ни за что. The death is the pay-off for nothing worthy.
По этой причине я оченьвнимательны(because it's plural) внимателен, когда использую русский язык и иногда я предпочитаю не говоритьпо русский(a typical mistake, we don't ever say по русский because it is an adjective but you have to use an adverb there, which is по-русски) по-русски, если даже знаю все слова.
Учить структуру русского языка очень трудно.
Битва за Москву
борьба за жизнь
Accusative.
Есть известная шутка в Интернете, из серии "как русские переводчики переводят c английского/на английский":Quote:
"спасибо для ваших ответов"
(Рус) Вот ответы на Ваши вопросы
(Eng) This is your questions answers
Ох, и сложная структура у русского языка, indeed!
Вы не представляете как трудно общаться с клиентам которые знают исключительно русский.
Думаю что если даже знаю много слов и использую профессиональную терминологию не могу выиграть ни их внимание ни их уважение потому что я перевожу с английского and I sound weird to them.
I can understand you :) But I do not think it is only a problem of Russian. I have to communicate with English-speaking customers from the US, and I often feel exactly the same as you do. I know all the professional terms, I try to construct my phrases properly. But when it comes to some complex logic involved I feel them struggle to understand me. Not everything can be easily translated from one language to another one. There are lots of tricky expressions if not to count compound sentences, conditions, subjunctions, tense nuances etc. Phrasal verbs drive me crazy as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio1986
И тоже "for", но в схему не укладывается. Да уж, чем дальше в лес, тем толще партизаны.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraph
Here is another usage of "за" as "for". X за Y - X is an activity to obtain or to keep Y.
Вы думаете что кто-то который хочет выучить русский язык очень хорошо должен поехать и пожить в России?
Я выучил английски очень хорошо прежде чем поехать в Англию.
Однако никто может сравнить русский и английский язык потому что первый 5 times труднее.
The only beauty of the English language is phrasal verbs and the slang.
Конечно, неплохо бы пожить тут, чтобы улучшить язык... Проживание здесь очень много даст. Это всегда так. Для любого языка. It goes without saying.
I also found the following expression: "Когда я с тобой не чувствую себя комфортно на длительное время".
I started to belive that "на" is used when we speak about time periods. In the previous example was: на будущее and now is "на длительное время". Is this true?
Maybe you find the following link useful:
Saying 'for' in Russian
There are also some exercises for the prepositions. But I have to admit some sentences in the exercises do not sound Russian at all, it seems they were composed by a non-native speaker. Although the explanation is good enough.
Yes, it's true.
На год, неделю, день, час etc.
The same is true for планы на будущее
Well, I think I have to point out what is wrong in the exercises, otherwise the link is not so useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
Sentence 1 suggests:
Пишите сочинение о мире на пятницу. - No one would ever say "пишите сочинение на пятницу". Everything is odd in this phrase: the imperfective aspect ("напишите" is expected as a task given by a teacher), the imperative mood (if it has to be done in the future, not now, then imperative does not work), and "на пятницу".
A proper sentence would be: "В пятницу вы будете писать сочинение о мире" (You will write it on Friday), but it leaves no place to use "for".
And if you like to keep "for", it can be: "На пятницу нам задали написать сочинение о мире" (We have an assignment for Friday to write a composition).
Or: "Сочинение о мире запланировано на пятницу" ((writing) The composition is planned for Friday).
If a teacher gives an assignment to write a composition, it would sound as
Напишите сочинение о мире к пятнице. ("by Friday", not "for Friday") - so, no place to use "for" again.
Sentence 2.
Won't you work for (instead of) me today?'
The Russian phrase they propose starts with "Ты не работаешь ..."
1. Why "сегодня" is missing in the translated Russian sentence? It is as logical to add it in Russian, as it is in English. Otherwise it is not clear how long one should work for them.
2. The major mistake: it should be "поработаешь" (Future). Even if it is "today", the action has not started yet. It has to be in the Future for the same reason as in the original English phrase (won't = will you not).
BTW, just noticed. "For the same reason" - "по той же причине". The preposition "for" is really overloaded in English!
Sentence 4.
I'll give you my flat for the car.
Nothing is wrong in the Russian translation. Just the original English phrase seems very odd. What is "flat for the car"?
Sentence 5.
A comma is missing before "а".
Sentence 11.
Do you know what the job for tomorrow is?'
The Russian phrase they propose starts with "Ты знаешь, что будет работа ..."
That's not in Russian again.
1. "Ты знаешь, что ..." is used to mean "Do you know that ... (some fact)".
Here, "что" does not work. "What job" - "what" is an attribute of "job". In Russian, it might be "какая работа" (adjective) or "что за работа" (a set expression which is understood as a request to specify a job).
2. If you ask "What job will be tomorrow" there is no place to use "for": Ты знаешь, что за работа (какая работа) будет завтра?
If you want to keep "for", it has to be rephrased somehow: "Do you know what job we have for tomorrow" or "Do you know what job is planned for tomorrow".
My suggestion for this exercise: "Ты знаешь, что за работа у нас ..." or "Ты знаешь, какая работа запланирована ..."
The rest of examples look good.
Боб Уайтман
How could you miss this awful sentence?
When I was sick, he read my paper for (instead of) me at the congress.
The site claims that the correct Russian would be:
Когда я заболел, он выступил за мной
на съезде.
Which is complete nonsense.
За мной there implies either the physical location like behind me or a sequence like right after me
But the whole sentence conveys the fact that the man took the sick man's place and did the sick man's job. So it has to be:
Когда я заболел, он выступил за меня
на съезде.
Yes, it should be "за меня". But where did you see "за мной"? There is a blank space which is supposed to be filled by a student.
Just type за мной in the blank space for this example and it says "правильно"!Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
Quote:
Originally Posted by iCake
But if you type the actually correct за меня it gives you a hint '[in exchange for me]', suggesting that you reconsider your answer.
Ah, I see! Sorry, I did not even think of checking the answers as well :)Quote:
Originally Posted by iCake
На is not needed here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio1986
What the following expression means: Я перевел текст за два часа.Quote:
The preposition "за" has a different meaning. One of its meanings is "in exchange of something". You give "спасибо" in exchange of our answers. So, the right way to say it is "спасибо за ваши ответы!"
If you pay for something, you give money in exchange of what you buy: "заплатить за обучение" - to pay for education.
"Он платит мне 10 долларов в день за мою работу" - He pays me 10 dollars a day for my work.
"Я хочу вас поблагодарить за вашу помощь" - I want to thank you for your help.
You can also use "за" in noun+noun combinations:
"деньги за работу" is "money for work" (money which is paid in exchange of work)
"5 рублей за билет" is "5 roubles for a ticket"
"благодарность за услугу" is "gratitude for service"
I cannot use: Я перевел текст на два часа?
Also what it means:
1. Он за год изучил русский язык
2. За вечер он подготовился к докладу
3. За день она выучила 25 новых слов.
Я перевел текст за два часа - It took me two hours to translate the textQuote:
Originally Posted by Antonio1986
Я перевел текст на два часа doesn't even make much sense
Он за год изучил русский язык - It took him a year to learn Russian
За вечер он подготовился к докладу - He prepared a report over evening
За день она выучила 25 новых слов - She learned 25 new words over that day
As you see за + time shows how much time it took to do something ;)
My simple conclusions are:Quote:
As you see за + time shows how much time it took to do something
1. за + ... = In + time period
2. на + ... = For + time period
Because I always want to verified what I learned I wrote the following expressions:
1. We opened two new factories in / during three years = Мы закрыли два новых завода за три года.
2. They have issued the new driving licence in six days = Выдали новые водительские права за шесть дней.
3. He sold his soul to the devil for 100 years = Он продал свою душу дьяволу на сто лет.
4. Can you imagine your self after 10 years = Можете представить себя после десяти лет.
5. I will finish my research in 30 days = Я закончу свое исследование за тридцать дней .
6. After the accident he couldn't walk for 5 years = После аварии, он мог ходить на пять лет .
7. The deficit will be covered in 3 years = Дефицит покроется за три года.
8. He spent three days alive in the cold see, after his boat was sunk = Он провел три дня жив в холодном море, после того как его лодка затонул.
9. Soviet Union lasted for 69 years = Союз Советских Социалистических Республик длился на шестьдесят девять лет
10. During the last five days I slept less than 10 hours = За последние пять дней я спал менее десяти часов or В течение пяти дней я спал менее чем десять часов or Во время пять дней я спал менее десяти часов
1. We opened two new factories in / during three years = Мы закрыли два новых завода за три года. - GoodQuote:
Originally Posted by Antonio1986
2. They have issued the new driving licence in six days = Выдали новые водительские права за шесть дней. - Good
3. He sold his soul to the devil for 100 years = Он продал свою душу дьяволу на сто лет. - Good
4. Can you imagine your self after 10 years = Можете представить себя ЧЕРЕЗ десять лет.
5. I will finish my research in 30 days = Я закончу свое исследование за тридцать дней . - Good. However, this will be true if you estimate the TOTAL you need to finish your research. BUT, if you say when the research will be finished, for example, you've been working on it for some time but you say when it's finished you have to say:
Я закончу своё исследование через тридцать дней.
6. After the accident he couldn't walk for 5 years = После аварии, он НЕ мог ходить [B пять лет[/B]. You don't need any preposition before time expression here
7. The deficit will be covered in 3 years = Дефицит покроется за три года. - Good
8. He spent three days alive in the cold see, after his boat was sunk = Он провел три дня в холодном море, после того как его лодка затонула. - No need to use жив in there.
9. Soviet Union lasted for 69 years = Союз Советских Социалистических Республик просуществовал шестьдесят девять лет - No preposition needed. And длился is not good in this case
10. During the last five days I slept less than 10 hours = За последние пять дней я спал менее десяти часов or В течение пяти дней я спал менее чем десять часов or Во время пять дней я спал менее десяти часов - The first variant is just great and very natural, the second one is not that good still acceptable, although it doesn't directly say that you didn't sleep well the last five days, maybe those 5 days were 5 days from some other time in the past. The third one is not good at all.
Well, let's try to explain what each time preposition means then. I warn you it might be confusing or not accurate 100%, still it's worth a shot.
За - For me it indicates the continuity of the respected action and what I mean is that it gives me a notion that the respected action is stretched during the time stamp of the given time.
За три дня я выучил/выучу/учу 40 слов - It kind of means that you constantly learn withing those three days.
На - It's kind of for how long the action is active in the time you provide.
Его посадили (посадят/садят) на 2 года - He's been charged 2 years in prison
Статуя рассчитана на 40 лет - The statue is considered to last for 40 years.
Через - this just shows what will/does/did happen after the period of time you provided
Через десять минут будет готов завтрак - The breakfast will be fixed in 10 minutes
Он закончил говорить через десять минут - He stopped talking after 10 minutes
Я иду в школу через два дня - I'll go to school in two days
Нет предлога - Well, that's kind of tricky to explain this one. Well, it's usually used to say for how long the action is/was/will be active
Он хромал десять дней - He was limping for 10 days
Я думал пять минут - I was/have been thinking for 5 minutes
Я думаю 5 минут - I am/have been thinking for 5 minutes
Well, I don't think it's gonna help but at least I tried:friends:
I think I did a mistake: За последних пять дней.Quote:
За последние пять дней я спал менее десяти часов
iCake you have provided an excellent analysis.
And I would like to add that "На" usually is used for time periods associated with the future:
1. Я строю планы на будущее
2. Он продал свою душу дьяволу на сто лет
3. Его посадили на два года.
4. Статуя рассчитана на 40 лет
5. He will be studying for 4 years = Он будет учится на четыре года.
Um, I'm most sure I'd say за последние пять дней and not за последних пять дней. But I think both variants are possibleQuote:
Originally Posted by Antonio1986
As for examples:
The first 4 are okay
The 5th one should be:
Он будет учится четыре года.
Because it kind of fits in this statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by iCake
За последние пять дней is correct. However it would be пять последних дней. The first one describes this time span as a whole, and the second one implies every of the last 5 days separately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio1986
Он будет учиться четыре года (в течение четырех лет). Compare: Он уехал на стажировку на четыре года. I think this construction only works with perfective verbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio1986
Only imperfective verbs here :)Quote:
Originally Posted by iCake
Мы открыли два новых завода ...Quote:
1. We opened two new factories in / during three years = Мы закрыли два новых завода за три года.
Antonio, the word "против" doesn't sound quite ok in such sentences like the title of the thread.
If you want to convey the meaning of "versus", say "или".