Thread: на & в

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person asked a simple question and I gave a simple answer explaining the basic difference between в and на. I did not claim to have produced an exhaustive list of the uses of the two prepositions.
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Hi TATY, please don't become defensive, it's alright ... no hard feelings, eh? No one is ever trying to undermine your proficiency. Just stay cool..

The problem we're discussing right now is very old and I think it was made famous by Karamzin some time back.

In my opinion, the rule of the thumb is: do learn grammar, but it will rarely help you in practice. The bitter truth is that a native Russian speaker would not confuse between в and на not because he or she knows the rule, but because that's the right way to say it in Russian. So, I found that the real practical way to approach prepositions in a language is to learn passages and make use of complete phrases spiced with prepositions.

Having said that, the above rule will not help you in the short term to get good scores in your Grammar classes.. Therefore, for this specific purpose I'm completely with TATY on the alternative rule of the thumb. Cheers!!

Originally Posted by тыры-пыры

Так сложилось исторически , и будет изменяться в дальнейшем.

Exactly!!!!! That was the entire point.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Originally Posted by тыры-пыры

Так сложилось исторически , и будет изменяться в дальнейшем.

Exactly!!!!! That was the entire point.

И тем не менее, я бы предложил использовать правило : В страну / НА землю

Originally Posted by Crocodile

...
person asked a simple question and I gave a simple answer explaining the basic difference between в and на. I did not claim to have produced an exhaustive list of the uses of the two prepositions.
...

Hi TATY, please don't become defensive, it's alright ... no hard feelings, eh? No one is ever trying to undermine your proficiency. Just stay cool..

The problem we're discussing right now is very old and I think it was made famous by Karamzin some time back.

In my opinion, the rule of the thumb is: do learn grammar, but it will rarely help you in practice. The bitter truth is that a native Russian speaker would not confuse between в and на not because he or she knows the rule, but because that's the right way to say it in Russian. So, I found that the real practical way to approach prepositions in a language is to learn passages and make use of complete phrases spiced with prepositions.

Having said that, the above rule will not help you in the short term to get good scores in your Grammar classes.. Therefore, for this specific purpose I'm completely with TATY on the alternative rule of the thumb. Cheers!!

I disagree with "do learn grammar but it won't help you in practice". In certain languages that may be true to a certain extent, but I disagree when it comes to Russian. The whole case system is a load of grammar and without knowing cases properly, the meanings of what someone wants to say can be greatly distorted. Russian grammar is so complex I think you have to formally learn the grammar, you can't just attempt to pick up the language by listening to it. Kids can, i.e. if you grow up as a native speaker, but even then, Russian kids get grammar lessons at school, as kids from English speaking kids get grammar lessons in English. I think the fact that native speakers of a language are formally taught grammar suggests that it is necessary.

The teaching of grammar is conducted by attempting to logically explain the structures, usages, ect. of a language by using a series of rules or formulae. Of course, since languages aren't sciences these rules are almost never absolute and there will always be exceptions. Some rules are better than others, some have few exceptions and can be considered proper rules, some rules are more just guidelines.

I learn Russian at university, and there has been a general trend here in Britain in the teaching of languages, both at school and in higher education, to move away from grammar and theoretical study and move towards practical study of the language. And what's happened? Standards have slipped.

I'm a super grammar fan anyway.

Originally Posted by TATY

... there has been a general trend here in Britain in the teaching of languages, both at school and in higher education, to move away from grammar and theoretical study and move towards practical study of the language. And what's happened? Standards have slipped.

Hey, that's a totally different thing. I'm only skeptical of grammar helping with the everyday practical usage. And I mentioned: "do learn the grammar" because (1) in general it makes you aware of the language you use, and (2) I've been taught grammar at school and I'm pretty conservative.

I bet that the question of why the standards have slipped is both educational and philosophical and well beyond our discussion about those prepositions. It's educational because I reckon the Ministry guys have spent days over days in meeting rooms discussing what went wrong and why. And it's philosophical because maibi ze taim haz kum tu fainali breik aurselvs fri from zose olde rules!!!

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Originally Posted by TATY

... there has been a general trend here in Britain in the teaching of languages, both at school and in higher education, to move away from grammar and theoretical study and move towards practical study of the language. And what's happened? Standards have slipped.

Hey, that's a totally different thing. I'm only skeptical of grammar helping with the everyday practical usage. And I mentioned: "do learn the grammar" because (1) in general it makes you aware of the language you use, and (2) I've been taught grammar at school and I'm pretty conservative.

I bet that the question of why the standards have slipped is both educational and philosophical and well beyond our discussion about those prepositions. It's educational because I reckon the Ministry guys have spent days over days in meeting rooms discussing what went wrong and why. And it's philosophical because maibi ze taim haz kum tu fainali breik aurselvs fri from zose olde rules!!!

Well considering it took me a bit of effort to read what you wrote at the end I think that demonstrates why we have those olde rules.

I don't know what you mean by "everyday practical usage". But I don't subscribe to the idea that if you can get your point across and be understood by a foreigner then nothing else matters and you can have really shit grammar.

Originally Posted by TATY

Well considering it took me a bit of effort to read what you wrote at the end I think that demonstrates why we have those olde rules.
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Если хочешь и у тебя есть лишнее время, можешь не стесняться и редактировать всё, что тебе не нравится, I think...

Originally Posted by TATY

Well considering it took me a bit of effort to read what you wrote at the end I think that demonstrates why we have those olde rules. I don't know what you mean by "everyday practical usage". But I don't subscribe to the idea that if you can get your point across and be understood by a foreigner then nothing else matters and you can have really @@@@ grammar.

Oh Dear.. C'mon, TATY don't be so dry! Have some fun! :P Apparently, next time I should be smarter to quote a person who asked a question, not the person who answered it. Then a seemingly innocent comment won't cause anyone to BBQ me.

Really, TATY look around! How many people you'd know around you that know English grammar pretty well, but can't maintain even the simplest conversation? I personally know a lot! That's exactly what I mean by the word "practical." And we all know that Russian is even worse with its 1001 rules and its 1002 exceptions for each rule! And I also know some people who speak a lot, but most of what they say is grammatically wrong. And that's why the formal education is important. No one is denying that.

Also, please let's not go to the extremes. When did I ever say anything similar to "if you can get your point across and be understood by a foreigner then nothing else matters?" Please don't quote me on that! I remember back in school teachers used to do that a lot to us, so that they can maintain their authority. This doesn't look impressive enough in adult conversations though.

Having said that, TATY please let's stop this pretty useless discussion because every one has their own taste and let's just remain friends!

Originally Posted by doninphxaz

Kevin,

I've put together a summary of в-на usage, along with a description of how they relate to other motion and location phrases. Go to:

http://www.public.asu.edu/~deliving/rus ... fromat.htm

As always, I'm grateful for corrections or suggestions.

Don.

Don - that site helps me a lot!

Thank you,

Scott