Thread: Мягкий дат. падеж

Some time ago here was explained why gen. pl. of неделя (недель+а)becomes недель applying the general rule for fem. and neuter.
A question close to this. In дат. / предлж. падеж мн. чс.: -ам, -ами.
For the same reasons it is clear why рубль -> рублям, здание ->зданям, and even ночь -> ночам because here of soft condition of ч before a. No problem. But why музей -> музеям, if no phonetical change for "e" would occur if it should be written музеам ? Perhaps there is no "because..." .

Examining the declension of край, края краю,... I see that it is "like" if й contains two ии in this cases. And we should have the second meaning of "soft" vowels, like not including a ь but two independent sounds "ia, ie, iy". I don't know. Thanks.

Originally Posted by radomir

Some time ago here was explained why gen. pl. of неделя (недель+а)becomes недель applying the general rule for fem. and neuter.
A question close to this. In дат. / предлж. падеж мн. чс.: -ам, -ами.
For the same reasons it is clear why рубль -> рублям, здание ->зданям, and even ночь -> ночам because here of soft condition of ч before a. No problem. But why музей -> музеям, if no phonetical change for "e" would occur if it should be written музеам ? Perhaps there is no "because..." .

Examining the declension of край, края краю,... I see that it is "like" if й contains two ии in this cases. And we should have the second meaning of "soft" vowels, like not including a ь but two independent sounds "ia, ie, iy". I don't know. Thanks.

зданиям

Isn't it pretty obvious that nouns ending in й are soft declension?

музей
музеам - where has the й gone?

музей - ам = музейам.

йа = я ---> музеям.

The vowels Я Е Ё Ю do two things:

1. At the beginning of words, after vowels, after hard/soft sign or after й they are iotated (pronounced with an initial й): Йа, йэ, йо, йу

Ялта = Йалта
Юг = Йуг
музеям = музейам.

By the way Й is a consonant. In музей the ending is not Е but Й. So the choice of case ending has nothing to do with Е.

Furthermore, музеам would not be pronounced the same as музеям. There would be a glide missing between the two final vowels.

Phonetics doesn't change for each grammar case. I don't see how
край сhanging to in the genitive: края (край + а = крайай = края)
Is any different from музей сhanging to музеям (музей + а = музейа =музея) in the dative plural.

The stem of здание is зданий- because with neuter and feminine nouns the stem is generally found by removing the final vowel sound (in this case э) and leaving the last remaining consonant.

The stem of музей is музей because masculine nouns end in consnants, and й is a consonant.

зданий- + ам --> зданийам --> зданиям
музей- + ам --> музейам --> музеям

And the genitive singular of музей is музея anyway. Just like край / края, бой / боя, *уй, *уя,

Originally Posted by radomir

A question close to this. In дат. / предлж. падеж мн. чс.: -ам, -ами.
For the same reasons it is clear why рубль -> рублям, здание ->зданиям, and even ночь -> ночам because here of soft condition of ч before a. No problem. But why музей -> музеям, if no phonetical change for "e" would occur if it should be written музеам ? Perhaps there is no "because..." .
Examining the declension of край, края краю,... I see that it is "like" if й contains two ии in this cases. And we should have the second meaning of "soft" vowels, like not including a ь but two independent sounds "ia, ie, iy". I don't know. Thanks.

им. п. ед. ч. > дат. п. мн. ч.
рубль > рублям
ночь > ночам (because we never write ЧЯ)
музей > музеi + ам > музеям (Я = ia)
здание > зданиi + ам > зданиям (Я = ia)
край > краi + ам > краям (Я = ia)

I will study more calmly your answer. The confusion was due to different origin of я in неделям and музеям. For my use and to make clear if I have understood, I say
Soft indicating vowels represent either
a) softening of preceeding consonant, incorporating a ь belonging to the previous consonant: неделя ->недель+а , недель+ам ->неделям; or
b) two sounds й+V because of
b.1. position: beginning of the word, Я; after any vowel, моя
b.2. adition: of a previous and independent й; музей, музей+ам ->музеям.
Is it OK?

You wouldn't have all these problems if you would just forget about writing in Russian and just talk!

Originally Posted by radomir

I will study more calmly your answer. The confusion was due to different origin of я in неделям and музеям. For my use and to make clear if I have understood, I say
Soft indicating vowels represent either
a) softening of preceeding consonant, incorporating a ь belonging to the previous consonant: неделя ->недель+а , недель+ам ->неделям; or
b) two sounds й+V because of
b.1. position: beginning of the word, Я; after any vowel, моя
b.2. adition: of a previous and independent й; музей, музей+ам ->музеям.
Is it OK?

Basically, yes. But b.2. is the same as b). Basically there is a rule that in Russian you can't write Й followed by another vowel. Note this only applies to Russian grammatical endings and native Russian words.