Thread: Дополнительные слова во время перевода...

https://vk.com/video1399033_166505897

Originally Posted by iCake

Oh... That's a very strange topic indeed. I can't even start to think why you need to know where those "extra" words come from. Except for some scientific or linguistic matter.

As for the additional words... They're there because Russian and English language are quite different in many cases. What sounds well in one language will often sound absolutely non-sensical in the other, that's why there is a lot of re-phrasing when translating. In the end what does it matter which words exactly did you use to convey meaning... as long as the meaning is the same?

Just don't start talking about how that might fail to carry over all or some of the subtleties the original may have had. Hell, even a direct literal translation tends to do just that more often than not. This is where your translating skills really shine. Interpreting a phrase while taking into account subtle shades of meaning and transform it into another form without losing anything is a real work of art. So you gotta be flexible, man.

Это мне просто важный. Одних самых трудных вещей в русским языке - выбирать правильные слова и смыслы... особенно пока переводить. Когда я хочу говорить что-то, не могу найти правильные слова.

I know it's odd, and maybe I'm taking this too seriously, but it's something that was really bugging me. I read a lot and try to understand as much as I can, but it fails when I come across strange phrases and nuances in Russian that I just have no idea how to translate. Translating word for word actually helps me more than looking for meaning because it's more relatable. Of course there are times it doesn't work out, but it's something to cling to for the time being I guess.

Originally Posted by Dmitry Skvortsov

I should add that in this case "облом" is a slang word and as a slang word it's appropriate only for colloquial speech.

Слово из сайта Russian slang - Облом... - Learn Russian with podcast)) Спасибо за объяснение)))

Originally Posted by alexsms

Основы теории перевода акцентируют особое внимание на следующем постулате: переводятся не слова и не предложения, а СМЫСЛ высказывания.
Т.е. при переводе требуется передать смысл и наиболее близкие коннотации (стиль).
Поэтому не нужно сравнивать количество слов.
Кроме того в английском переводе использованы структуры, характерные для него (они потребовались, чтобы адекватно передать смысл высказываний).
При хорошем переводе на выходе имеется равноценный текст на языке перевода (количество слов может отличаться, предложение может быть разбито, а может наблюдаться слияние предложений).

Всем огромное спасибо за ответы! Я вспомню ваши советы и использую это.

Короче, самый важный - переводи чтобы передавать смысл, а не дословно.

Originally Posted by alexei90

Translating word for word actually helps me more than looking for meaning because it's more relatable.

If you want to know my opinion, this is a very dangerous path that'll only lead you to a dead end. You see, this kind of word-for-word translation creates a real mess in your head.

Why? Because almost every word has more than one meaning. Imagine you take two words from two different languages that kind of mean the same thing. Sure, they can have one mutual meaning in the multitudes of other meanings the words have as well. Sure it all works out pretty smoothly when you see/hear the two words in situations when their meanings are identical. But what if they're not? Then it's gonna confuse you. You grab your dictionary and learn yet another new word from the other language that corresponds to the word you have translated. Now you have two for one and it's only going to grow, like a pile of snow rolling down a hill. Add to it the additional difficulty of having to discern when to apply a relative word for word translation and let's just say. That hill is going to be a mountain.

Instead, don't learn translations. Learn meanings. Just think about it. What a native speaker imagines when they hear the word "car"? Do they think of another word that means the same thing as "car". Maybe "automobile"? No, they just have an image of a car in their head.

So you have to be like them. When you hear a Russian word don't try to find another word to help you understand that Russian word. Just imagine it. That'll save you a lot of "processing power", so to speak. Of course, imagining actual tangible things is a hell lot easier, but it can be done with just about anything. If it's a set phrase, imagine a situation when that set phrase is mostly used. If it's an emotion, imagine someone expressing that emotion and so on.

Trust me. There is no more natural way of learning a language. That's just how we all learn our native languages anyway. In fact, I don't even know a proper Russian translation for most of the English words I've just typed. But it never stopped me from knowing what they meant.

Good luck with your studies.

Originally Posted by iCake

If you want to know my opinion, this is a very dangerous path that'll only lead you to a dead end. You see, this kind of word-for-word translation creates a real mess in your head.

Why? Because almost every word has more than one meaning. Imagine you take two words from two different languages that kind of mean the same thing. Sure, they can have one mutual meaning in the multitudes of other meanings the words have as well. Sure it all works out pretty smoothly when you see/hear the two words in situations when their meanings are identical. But what if they're not? Then it's gonna confuse you. You grab your dictionary and learn yet another new word from the other language that corresponds to the word you have translated. Now you have two for one and it's only going to grow, like a pile of snow rolling down a hill. Add to it the additional difficulty of having to discern when to apply a relative word for word translation and let's just say. That hill is going to be a mountain.

Instead, don't learn translations. Learn meanings. Just think about it. What a native speaker imagines when they hear the word "car"? Do they think of another word that means the same thing as "car". Maybe "automobile"? No, they just have an image of a car in their head.

So you have to be like them. When you hear a Russian word don't try to find another word to help you understand that Russian word. Just imagine it. That'll save you a lot of "processing power", so to speak. Of course, imagining actual tangible things is a hell lot easier, but it can be done with just about anything. If it's a set phrase, imagine a situation when that set phrase is mostly used. If it's an emotion, imagine someone expressing that emotion and so on.

Trust me. There is no more natural way of learning a language. That's just how we all learn our native languages anyway. In fact, I don't even know a proper Russian translation for most of the English words I've just typed. But it never stopped me from knowing what they meant.

Good luck with your studies.

If words mostly have multiple meanings, how is one supposed to learn them through association?
(Если у слова обычно много смыслов, как я должен их учить по соединения?) - Это больше и меньше дословно, но это все правильно? Я так думаю потому что послышался наибольше слов раньше и знаю наибольше их смыслов.
- Здесь лучше сказать "самый большой" или "наибольше"?

Благодарю за советы!

Originally Posted by alexei90

If words mostly have multiple meanings, how is one supposed to learn them through association?

First and foremost, what I said is not about learning words from associations... not really. It's more about creating a mental imprint of what the word represents.

This is where the magic starts. Most of the time having only one "imprint" of the word is enough to understand the other meanings the word might have and therefore learn them very easily. Why? Because most of variations in a single word's meanings are created just by using a word figuratively. The "core" meaning is still the same, it's just used creatively.

Just a fresh example of how this "mental imprint" helped me understand something I might have had troubles understanding otherwise.

When I heard "sore loser" for the first time, I immediately understood what it meant. Even so if we go word for word and translate it into Russian we'll get "больной проигравший". That actully gives you an idea of a loser who's sick with something like an actual illness. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Instead, "sore" has a mental imprint of something red and swollen and painful in my mind. Combining that with loser gave me a clear idea what those two words actually meant. Someone who can't get over their defeat.

You see, the other benefit of this is that now I can't imagine what can make me forget these two words. I heard them once and it was enough to make me remember them for good. Moreover, I know exactly the situation when to use them in the future.

P.S. If you want to know how to properly say "you're such a sore loser" in Russian there you go.

Ты не умеешь проигрывать

Couldn't be more different from the original, could it?

Originally Posted by alexei90

If words mostly have multiple meanings, how is one supposed to learn them through association?
(Если у слова обычно много смыслов, как я должен их учить по соединения?) - Это больше и меньше дословно, но это все правильно? Я так думаю потому что послышался наибольше слов раньше и знаю наибольше их смыслов.
- Здесь лучше сказать "самый большой" или "наибольше"?

If words mostly have multiple meanings, how is one supposed to learn them through association? - Если у слов имеется много различных значений, как я должен учить их по ассоциациям?

Your translation was pretty good. Соединения didn't make any sense there though. The other words are alright.

Я так думаю потому что послышался наибольше слов раньше и знаю наибольше их смыслов. This doesn't make much sense. Sorry. I can only assume that you meant something like:

I think so because I've heard most of the words before and know most of their meanings.

If so: Я так думаю потому, что уже слышал многие эти слова и знаю большинство их значений.

Originally Posted by iCake

First and foremost, what I said is not about learning words from associations... not really. It's more about creating a mental imprint of what the word represents.

This is where the magic starts. Most of the time having only one "imprint" of the word is enough to understand the other meanings the word might have and therefore learn them very easily. Why? Because most of variations in a single word's meanings are created just by using a word figuratively. The "core" meaning is still the same, it's just used creatively.

Just a fresh example of how this "mental imprint" helped me understand something I might have had troubles understanding otherwise.

When I heard "sore loser" for the first time, I immediately understood what it meant. Even so if we go word for word and translate it into Russian we'll get "больной проигравший". That actully gives you an idea of a loser who's sick with something like an actual illness. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Instead, "sore" has a mental imprint of something red and swollen and painful in my mind. Combining that with loser gave me a clear idea what those two words actually meant. Someone who can't get over their defeat.

You see, the other benefit of this is that now I can't imagine what can make me forget these two words. I heard them once and it was enough to make me remember them for good. Moreover, I know exactly the situation when to use them in the future.

P.S. If you want to know how to properly say "you're such a sore loser" in Russian there you go.

Ты не умеешь проигрывать

Couldn't be more different from the original, could it?

Hmm, I consider that a type of association. You're associating a foreign word with a mental image of that idea that practically transcends the language barrier. I guess that's what I was referring to. When I see the word "машина," I of course think of "car," but an image of my own car is associated with that as well. When I hear the word "придурак," I know it's an insult because when used, I noticed the user's body language and how it correlated with the context of the situation. It's really with new words that I get confused easily. I look it up, see there are 30+ definitions and prompty close the browser and cry in my hands... okay, maybe that last part is a lie. :P

Hmm, "ты не умеешь проигрывать" is loosely "You don't know (how) to lose." => "You're a sore loser." - and it makes perfect sense! When I see the words alone without translation, I have nothing to base it off of. No mental images of what these things could mean - how could I without knowing them? Therein lies the mental contradiction. I know what "Ты не умеешь" means just by looking at it, but the new word for me here is "проигрывать."

I recently learned "уметь," but not necessarily where and how to use it. It means "to know," but so does "(у)знать..." so then what's the difference?

Originally Posted by iCake

If words mostly have multiple meanings, how is one supposed to learn them through association? - Если у слов имеется много различных значений, как я должен учить их по ассоциациям?

Your translation was pretty good. Соединения didn't make any sense there though. The other words are alright.

Я так думаю потому что послышался наибольше слов раньше и знаю наибольше их смыслов. This doesn't make much sense. Sorry. I can only assume that you meant something like:

I think so because I've heard most of the words before and know most of their meanings.

If so: Я так думаю потому, что уже слышал многие эти слова и знаю большинство их значений.

Ugh, it's funny y'know? I was going to choose ассоциация initially, but then turned back on it due to doubts in its meaning. I thought it meant an official association of people, ie. a gathering of sorts. I need the definitive dictionary that has only the proper meanings (of what I'm looking for at the time. )

Thanks! No need to be sorry. I really appreciate the help. I write these things knowing there will be issues. Prior to this, I wouldn't even try because I knew it would be wrong anyways.

Ah! The word choices and oh how they're just so wrong (mine)... I chose послышаться because I figured it was the perfective verb and this is something that has happened already and most certainly completed. Наибольше and самый большой are what I know to mean "most" and while I've heard большинство in a song, I made no connection with it meaning "most." Смысл vs значение - why use one over the other? How do you know which to use and when?

Originally Posted by alexei90

It's really with new words that I get confused easily. I look it up, see there are 30+ definitions and prompty close the browser and cry in my hands... okay, maybe that last part is a lie. :P

I know the feeling. I suggest using a monolingual dictionary. They're way better because they don't just give blank translations but explanation of words meanings. They usually provide examples as well. In addition they do help along with the mental imprint thingy.

Originally Posted by alexei90

When I hear the word "придурак"

It's actually придурок, but you wrote this one down right phonetically. Might I mention how funny it is that you included this word. I hope there is nothing to read between the lines there.

Originally Posted by alexei90

When I see the words alone without translation, I have nothing to base it off of. No mental images of what these things could mean

That's kind of obvious, isn't it? If you see a word for the first time, you can't have any mental imprint on it. You don't even have the slightest idea what it means. Again, I suggest you use a monolingual (Russian) dictionary for the new words you come across. An explanation rather than translation facilitates association and helps you avoid linking a foreign word to a specific word from your native language.

Originally Posted by alexei90

I know what "Ты не умеешь" means just by looking at it, but the new word for me here is "проигрывать."

I recently learned "уметь," but not necessarily where and how to use it. It means "to know," but so does "(у)знать..." so then what's the difference?

проигрывать means to lose (continuous action)
проиграть means to lose (completed action)

Уметь doesn't mean to know but rather "possess an ability or skill to do something", be able to, can (modal verb)

Знать means to have knowledge of something or how to do something
Узнать means to gain knowledge of something or how to do something

Originally Posted by alexei90

I chose послышаться because I figured it was the perfective verb and this is something that has happened already and most certainly completed. Наибольше and самый большой are what I know to mean "most" and while I've heard большинство in a song, I made no connection with it meaning "most." Смысл vs значение - why use one over the other? How do you know which to use and when?

The logic with послышаться is sound but unfortunately the word itself shifts meaning from just "hear" in this form

послышаться - used when you're not sure if you really heard something or when you misheared something

E.g

- Вася, звонят! Иди открой дверь!
- Петя, нет там никого!
- Да? Ну значит мне послышалось (I wrongly heard someone ring the doorbell)

Another example is when you're in disbelief that somebody has said something. Usually something you don't like. It's like "You did not just say that!"

- Аня, ты полная дура!
- Что? Мне не послышалось?

Наибольше is mostly spoken variant of наиболее. It has correlation with most, sure. But this gets tricky very fast. Russians form comperative and superlative adjectives a bit differently.

A few examples:

Наиболее эффективным решением является предложение господина Волкова. Самым эффективным решением является предложение господина Волкова

Those two both mean "The most effective soultion is the one Mr. Volkov has suggested".

This is where it gets tricky. Those two Russian sentences might have a slightly different flavor to them.

The one with наиболее might mean that the most effective solution comes from a set of suggested/presented solutions. Wherein the one with самый means that this solution is the most effective of all possible solutions, even the ones that were not suggested/presented.

Самый большой is just the superlative of "big". Самая большая страна на земле. Самый большой парк etc...

P.S. Более is often used to form a comparative adjective. Более эффективным решением является предложение господина Волкова - A more effective soultion is the one Mr. Volkov has suggested.

Смысл vs значение.

Well, смысл is more about talking about the gist of something. Like смысл высказывания, смысл предложения etc. It is usually used when talking about complex things. Like a sentence. Значение is very close to смысл and can be mostly interchangable with смысл. However, when talking about singular things, we usually go for значение. Like a word.

However, you can also say смысл слова. There is nothing wrong with it. It's just that it might imply some deep hidden meaning of a said word, not just its mundane meaning everybody is aware of.