Valda - разные вопросы по глаголам

So I'm practicing with my Russian friend and for HW she wrote:

Я хочу стать _______ (инженер) , буду целый день собирать ________ (робот)

The answer according to her is:

Я хочу стать инженером, буду целый день собирать роботов.

I understand инженером, but why use the Genitive case in роботов? Nothing would indicate here ownership, "of", "some", "any"....

She, as a native speaker, says it just sounds correct to her. She isn't familiar with cases and grammar names of stuff, so she can't give me the logic.

Personally I thought it's the nominative because robots is the subject and I don't see anything special.

Therefor it ought to be роботи


Anyone?

The Accusative Case
Accusative Case of Russian Nouns

The principal meaning of the accusative is to designate a person or thing to whom or which and action is being done. For example: Люся любит брата (Lucy loves her brother); Мы видим море (We see the sea); Инженер собирает роботов.

Though i'm not sure whether роботы is animate :oops:

Yep, it is Accusative. For some reason робот in Russian is mostly treated as grammatically animate.

Ohh I perfectly understand now. Thank you!

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

Yep, it is Accusative. For some reason робот in Russian is mostly treated as grammatically animate.

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Yes, we have some strange rules for the grammatical animacy.
"Покойник" (the deceased) and "мертвец" (dead man) are animate: Он увидел покойника. Он увидел мертвеца. But "труп" (corpse) is inanimate: Он увидел труп.
"Микроб" (microbe) is usually animate: Мыло убивает микробов. "Бактерия" (bacterium) and "вирус" (virus) are usually inanimate: Мыло убивает бактерии. Мыло убивает вирусы.

And yes, "робот" is animate. I think that is because robots first appeared in science fiction, and they were described as human-like creations.

Does "animate" mean "living" or "animated"?

Living

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Originally Posted by Valda

Я хочу стать _______ (инженер) , буду целый день собирать ________ (робот)

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Is it from a Chinese book? :)

If проспать is oversleep, does it mean "про" is the equivalent to "over"

Such as "пропить" - overdrink?

Russian verb prefixes are in some sense equivalents of English prepositions after verbs.

Most often prefix про- is an equivalent of preposition through.
проспать - to sleep through the event. (To miss the event because of sleeping.)
пропить - to drink through smth. (To lose smth. because of drinking.)

it's not clearcut therefore i'd not advise to attribute any fixed mode to the prefixes

for example how would you translate "прописать" ? obviously not overwrite :D
overwrite is переписать
as "overdo" is not проделать, but переборщить

for the sake of the discussion oversleep can be translated as переспать that is 'to sleep a little too long, over the expected amount of time'.

проспать is also 'to sleep through' if it means 'to sleep during a certain event' like 'he slept through the entire episode' - 'он проспал всю серию'

Ahh...so

про - through
пере - over

Understood :)

Much appreciated

knowing German i believe can help to wrap one's head around Russian prefixes with greater ease

Valda -- I'd also point out such verbs as пройти ("to go past") and пропускать ("to let pass by", in several senses).

пропускать is interesting. So if someone is blocking the way I can tell him можно пропускать?

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Originally Posted by Valda

пропускать is interesting. So if someone is blocking the way I can tell him можно пропускать?

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in this case you'd politely say "можно пройти?" or rudely "пропустите!"

Heh, thaks :) I'll stay polite. But, always good to know the rude version, just in case.

Problem is that according to masterussian grammar guide, "про" is also used for future tense!

She will read }
She will have read } Она прочитает

So про is for "through" in certain words mean will read? I thought it means "read through", according to your example. What gives? Grammar inconsistencies?


I would also add that I know that we can use prefixes to make words into future tense*, but those prefixes for future appear to vary


Я постараюсь - I will try
Я сделаю - I will do

See! In the first one it's "по", and in the second one it's "с" for our future tense prefixes (and in the example above we even have "про" for future tense). Is it normally irregular like that?


*I realize I can just use будут, but I prefer to learn the second way
**Note that most Russian guides, even the one on masterussian.com (first russian when I google "russian future tense" ), do not say anything about what future prefixes are possible and which ones I can use

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Originally Posted by Valda

Heh, thaks :) I'll stay polite. But, always good to know the rude version, just in case.

Problem is that according to masterussian grammar guide, "про" is also used for future tense!

She will read }
She will have read } Она прочитает

So про is for "through" in certain words mean will read? I thought it means "read through", according to your example. What gives? Grammar inconsistencies?

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russian grammar thrives on inconsistencies, i believe you need to just stop looking for logic in it

the prefix "про" denotes completeness of action therefore in the future tense она прочитает means she will be finished reading, she will have read through
another prefix "по" denotes an incomplete action, a try at it, therefore for the future tense you could use она почитает - she will have read a little
both these forms are perfective

however the usual meaning of this phrase isn't that strict, both simply mean she will read
from English into Russian it would be translated according to the context

that said, for both words the present singular 3d person form is читает but the verb indefinite form can receive the prefix as in прочитать and почитать

as soon as you add prefixes про and по to the verb читать in the present form it turns into its future tense form

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Originally Posted by Valda

I would also add that I know that we can use prefixes to make words into future tense*, but those prefixes for future appear to vary


Я постараюсь - I will try
Я сделаю - I will do

See! In the first one it's "по", and in the second one it's "с" for our future tense prefixes (and in the example above we even have "про" for future tense). Is it normally irregular like that?

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see? yes it is, you need to just memorize it or feel it out

often the prefix in the future tense is selected on the basis of the semantics you wish to convey

я делаю - я сделаю - я проделаю - я поделаю

я знаю - я узнАю - я прознАю

я сижу - я посижу - я просижу

я играюсь - я поиграюсь - я наиграюсь

also prefixes used in the future tense often do not exist or rarely used for the same words in their present tense form, like наигрываюсь, постарываюсь, с(о)делываю, поделываю (archaic), почитываю (archaic)

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Originally Posted by Valda

*I realize I can just use будут, but I prefer to learn the second way
**Note that most Russian guides, even the one on masterussian.com (first russian when I google "russian future tense" ), do not say anything about what future prefixes are possible and which ones I can use

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forming future tense through the verb быть always results in the imperfective form, whereas the prefixes without быть always give the perfective one


sorry about the messy explanation

Not messy, I'm satisfied :) And appreciate it.

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я делаю - я сделаю - я проделаю - я поделаю

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Wow, the many ways you can say this word to slightly alter its definition....

Thanks for the enlightenment ;)

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Originally Posted by Valda

Not messy, I'm satisfied :) And appreciate it.



Wow, the many ways you can say this word to slightly alter its definition....

Thanks for the enlightenment ;)

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to clarify a bit, prefixes aren't always compatible with the described action and the objective complement, e.g.

я делаю уроки - я сделаю уроки but not я проделаю уроки

however other lexical units are more acceptive

я делаю упражнение (физическое) - я сделаю упражнение - я проделаю упражнение

in this case prefix про- is acceptable because an exercise is a sequence of postures which you gradually go through

Which version is the polite version? не волнуйся or не волнуйтесь?

They are both polite. The second one is formal.

I agree.
The guys in the song below preferred "Не волнуйтесь" to calm down a person in the situation of extreme turmoil.
So, if in doubt, I’d rather you’d better stick to this expression, especially with strangers and elderly people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA9J-6243Fo

В детстве очень давно,
Помню, шло одно кино.
Там забавная песенка звучала.
Пусть прошло много лет -
Этой песенки куплет
Навсегда в память врезался мою.
И чтоб детство снова вспомнить, я пою.

Ой, напрасно, тётя,
Вы лекарства пьёте
И всё смотрите в окно.
Не волнуйтесь, тётя,
Дядя на работе,
А не с кем-нибудь в кино.
Ой, напрасно, тётя,
Вы так слёзы льёте,
Муж ваш редкий семьянин.
Так что не грустите
И его простите
Ради ваших именин.

Год за годом идёт,
Тётя дядю ждёт и ждёт.
И дождаться сумеет ли, не знаю.
И никак не пойму,
Вспоминаю почему
Этот в общем незатейливый сюжет.
Ведь ни дяди у меня ни тёти нет.
Нет, нет!

Ой, напрасно, тётя,
Вы лекарства пьёте
И всё смотрите в окно.
Не волнуйтесь, тётя,
Дядя на работе,
А не с кем-нибудь в кино.
Ой, напрасно, тётя,
Вы так слёзы льёте,
Муж ваш редкий семьянин.
Так что не грустите
И его простите
Ради ваших именин.

Если дождь бъёт в окно,
И ничуть мне не смешно,
И припомнилась давняя обида,
Как спасательный круг,
Мне бросает память вдруг
Тех безоблачных лет напев смешной.
И тогда с улыбкой говорю я:
Ой! Ой! Ой...

Ой, напрасно, тётя,
Вы лекарства пьёте
И всё смотрите в окно.
Не волнуйтесь, тётя,
Дядя на работе,
А не с кем-нибудь в кино.
Ой, напрасно, тётя,
Вы так слёзы льёте,
Муж ваш редкий семьянин.
Так что не грустите
И его простите
Ради ваших именин.

it's not so much the case of polite-impolite as a case of personal distance


strangers and people considerably older than yourself you address by Вы and so verbs conguate in plural

a considerably younger person can be addressed by ты

compare to Sie vs du in German

but foreigners are usually absolved from address by ты in the first case

simple people may consider address by ты impolite however courteous you are in actuality

Well, if spoken to a kid, which one to pick?

I do know the difference between ты and вы - many people rehashed it in my head ;) So I got it figured out. But, I just don't know which belongs to which--

The way I understand it now:

ты = не-волнуйся

вы = не-волнуйтесь

Эта прав?

Yes. It is correct.

in не волнуйтесь (the dash isn't needed) the verb is in plural so this gives you indication of the form

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Originally Posted by Valda

Эта прав?

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Это правильно?

Да! Весьма признателен :)

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Originally Posted by Valda

Да! Весьма признателен :)

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признатеЛЬНА

just like in Hebrew, conjugated by gender asirat toda

female -a ending in Russian should be easy to remember for Hebrew speaking students because of the corresponding -a ending for nekeva

Ahhh... shucks... that's what happens when you trust translators blindly. I should've taken a closer look, as I am familiar with the male-female conjugation rules.

Весьма признательна, then :)

I love listening to this song:

Елена Ваенга "Абсент". - YouTube

Елена is a brilliant singer in my opinion. There are two lines though I don't understand from the song

"Я только время поменяю и лица
Зелёный цвет я не поменяю"

Can anyone explain me the meaning of it?

i personally am not fond of her repertoire, pretty amateurish and tasteless (not to decry your favour though)

do you seek the meaning or the translation?

the translation is

I will only change/replace the time and the faces
The green color I'm not going to change/replace


but the meaning depends on the song's entire idea i guess

Haha, I think it's fine to listen to tasteless music when learning a new language.8)
It's worse if a person chooses tasteless music in their own native language.

You can say

"нам нужно" which means "we need"

And you can say

"мы нуждаемся" which means "we need"

What's the difference?

мы нуждаемся - urgent need, something you can't work or live without, often when something can't function without it.

Мы нуждаемся в воздухе (We need air to live, to breathe, or We must have air)... Нам просто нужен воздух (We just need air)

the difference the same as between Hebrew zarich and zakuk or if extrapolate their grammatical difference to Hebrew, then as between zrichim and nizkakim/mizdakekim

mind that нуждаться is governed by preposition 'в + Prepositional case' just like in Hebrew lehizdakek be-

in English нуждаться - to be in need of; to be in want of

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мы нуждаемся - urgent need, something you can't work or live without, often when something can't function without it.

Мы нуждаемся в воздухе (We need air to live, to breathe, or We must have air)... Нам просто нужен воздух (We just need air)

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Ahh I see

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Originally Posted by LXNDR

the difference the same as between Hebrew zarich and zakuk or if extrapolate their grammatical difference to Hebrew, then as between zrichim and nizkakim/mizdakekim

mind that нуждаться is governed by preposition 'в + Prepositional case' just like in Hebrew lehizdakek be-

in English нуждаться - to be in need of; to be in want of

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Oh, so if I wanna say "we need food" (urgent) it would be "мы нуждаемся в пище" [<-prepostional] ?

Nice Hebrew example, btw ;) touche!

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Originally Posted by Valda

Oh, so if I wanna say "we need food" (urgent) it would be "мы нуждаемся в пище" [<-prepostional] ?

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that's exactly right

a sidenote: many Russian speakers learning Hebrew have trouble remembering that мне нужно is not zarich li, but ani zarich, because in Hebrew zarich is related to the subject, whereas in Russian нужно is related to the object

Thanks LX

Even if Russian they must be really beginners if they say "zarich li", heh. Amusingly my Russian department head professor for robotics in my college still make hilarious Hebrew mistakes. I even post them on my facebook if it's in writing :P

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Originally Posted by Valda

Amusingly my Russian department head professor for robotics in my college still make hilarious Hebrew mistakes.

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?חָתוּל מַדעָן