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Thread: "Undiminutive"?

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    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    "Undiminutive"?

    Russian obviously has a plethora of diminutive forms, but today I stumbled on what appears to be the opposite of that, namely for example нос -> носище, nose - big nose. Intriguing! But that's not in any grammar book I know and hard to find info on. How does that work grammatically? Does it decline? How? Is it productive (can be attached to anything)? Does it have different gender endings? A plural form?
    Спасибо за исправления!

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    It is absolutely productive and declinable. Gender is the same as of the original word.
    Looks like starling works perfect for this word.

    There are more such suffixes (more or less colloquial). Носяра for example.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Увлечённый спикер mudrets's Avatar
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    Undiminutive

    I think the opposite of "diminutive" is "augmentative" (увеличительный). For some reason, the form does seem to be rarer in Russian than the diminutive.There are a few augmentatives formed with suffixes, including -ище, -ишко, and -ин-, for example: дом (the house) домище (great house) домина (huge house). An impression of excessive qualities is sometimes made using the suffix -га, for example: ветер (the wind), ветрюга (strong wind).

    There are neuter nouns ending in -ище and declined substituting the usual -o with -e. (чудовище, чудовища, чудовищем, и т.д.)

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    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    It is absolutely productive and declinable. Gender is the same as of the original word.
    Really? Нос being masculine, isn't носище neuter? Is it always -ище or is it -ища for feminine nouns?

    Looks like starling works perfect for this word.

    There are more such suffixes (more or less colloquial). Носяра for example.
    That's not in starling, but the other is. Now of course I'd like to know all the suffixes and how they relate to each other on a scale of giantness.
    Спасибо за исправления!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mudrets View Post
    I think the opposite of "diminutive" is "augmentative" (увеличительный). For some reason, the form does seem to be rarer in Russian than the diminutive.
    Thanks, I wasn't aware of that word. In German, we have no grammatical declinable suffix for such purposes (and only two for diminutives), but we can stick lots of words as compound prefixes on nouns to achieve that effect.
    Спасибо за исправления!

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    Really? Нос being masculine, isn't носище neuter? Is it always -ище or is it -ища for feminine nouns?
    носище is masculine. Well, in colloquial it can be used as neutral for further enlargement and making comic effect.
    "-ище" is for masculine and neuter
    "-ища" is for feminine.

    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    That's not in starling, but the other is. Now of course I'd like to know all the suffixes and how they relate to each other on a scale of giantness.
    It is difficult. In colloquial extensive improvisations are possible so it is not formalized.
    Anyway there is no scale.

    As mudrets said, there are -ин- and -га suffixes but normally they are not applicable to "нос". All those suffixes mean basically the same but are applicable to different words and I don't know what are formal rules to select proper suffix for a given word.

    BTW Italians also have "undiminutive" suffix -one.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    OK, thanks, I think I get it now.

    Oh, one more thing: on sterling it says that the stress in носище is on и. Does it regularly go there if the suffix is used, or is that something which might have to be learned separately for each word so modified?
    Спасибо за исправления!

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    I've made several tests.
    Looks like normally -ище has accent on и while -ища is unstressed.

    But remember that there are a plenty of words ended by -ище, -ища in a normal form, not "undiminutive." They have different stress pattern.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    Thanks again. That's very helpful. I did notice that чудовище for example has its stress on "o", even though the word also gets listed as an example for an augmentative, but I take it it may be different for words which are established enough to warrant their own dictionary entry. Interesting that there is no shift for the female form.
    Спасибо за исправления!

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    Чудовище (a monster) isn't augmentative, it has no "normal" form. "Чудище" (stress on "у") means the same, it looks like augmentative from "чудо" (not a marvel, but a fairy tale monster again). Both "чудище" and "чудо" (as a monster) are obsolete, most typically you may encounter them in skazki ("чудище ужасное, чудо лесное").

    There are lot's of nouns with -ище that are not augmentative (училище, стойбище, толковище).

    Another interesting suffix is -ющ, used in adjectives:

    Вдруг откуда-то хитрющий котище
    И шипит он в длинющий усище.

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    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kudesnik View Post
    Чудовище (a monster) isn't augmentative, it has no "normal" form. "Чудище" (stress on "у") means the same, it looks like augmentative from "чудо" (not a marvel, but a fairy tale monster again). Both "чудище" and "чудо" (as a monster) are obsolete, most typically you may encounter them in skazki ("чудище ужасное, чудо лесное").

    There are lot's of nouns with -ище that are not augmentative (училище, стойбище, толковище).
    Isn't it possible that some or even all of these words used to be formed as augmentatives and just lost the connection to the basic word? The funny thing about Чудовище is that it's German counterpart "Ungeheuer" uses an augmentative prefix un-, but there is no "Geheuer" anymore either, outside of a single fixed phrase where it is an adjective meaning "understandable".

    Another interesting suffix is -ющ, used in adjectives:

    Вдруг откуда-то хитрющий котище
    И шипит он в длинющий усище.
    And does the former translate to "very smart large cat"? The second I don't get at all...
    Спасибо за исправления!

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    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    Isn't it possible that some or even all of these words used to be formed as augmentatives and just lost the connection to the basic word?
    I think you guess right.

    And does the former translate to "very smart large cat"? The second I don't get at all...
    Yes, and the second transletes to "very long huge whisker".
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    Isn't it possible that some or even all of these words used to be formed as augmentatives and just lost the connection to the basic word?
    No, mostly not. There are other meanings of this suffix, which are almost lost in time. Suffix -ище had meaning "a place for" (something or doing something) and produces neuter noun. So we have words like стойбище, пастбище, лежбище, убежище, кладбище (from verbs) топорище, голенище, огнище (from nouns) и т.д.


    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    And does the former translate to "very smart large cat"? The second I don't get at all...
    Very cunning large cat. As for second, there is a way of speaking: when someone with усы (mustache or whisker) makes some sound (like hisses) with his mouth, it can be described as "шипит в усы".

    BTW котище does not necessarily mean very large cat. The cat may be just very prominent in some sense. A special cat. Impressive. This is true about this suffix in general. But by default it means "very large".
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    Thank you all, this has been very enlightening and interesting.
    Спасибо за исправления!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    on sterling it says that the stress in носище is on и. Does it regularly go there if the suffix is used, or is that something which might have to be learned separately for each word so modified?
    I don't know about statistics but it wasn't difficult to come up with words that have different stress:
    медведище
    президентище
    лаптопище

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    Почтенный гражданин delog's Avatar
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    Only when I come to this forum, I realized how Russian language is difficult to learn. I'd like to explain rules, but I can't. It is something intuitive. How such a thing can be understood if the Russian is not your native language, I wonder. Well, some examples might be useful I hope:

    слонишко < слоник < слон < слонище < слоняра
    носик < нос < носище < носяра (may be offensive)
    домишко < домик < дом < домище < домяра
    ручонка < ручка < рука < ручище
    волчишка < волк < волчище < волчара
    человечишко (ignoble man) < человечек (little man) < человек < человечище (noble man)
    сапожок < сапог < сапожище
    ружьишко < ружьецо < ружьё < ружьище
    кулачишко, кулачочек, кулаченок < кулачок < кулак < кулачище
    English as a Second Language by Jeff McQuillan and Lucy Tse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitpicker View Post
    Thank you all, this has been very enlightening and interesting.
    There are also носяра and котяра.
    This suffix is less common, more colloquial and it isn't productive. "Ра" can change to "ла" for some words, but all examples I can recall are not applicable for a public forum.
    Налево пойдёшь - коня потеряешь, направо пойдёшь - сам голову сложишь.
    Прямой путь не предлагать!

  18. #18
    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delog View Post
    слонишко < слоник < слон < слонище < слоняра
    слонослюслюслюшечека < слонюснюсенька < слонюсек < слонишко < слоник < слон < слонище < слоняра

  19. #19
    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    This is getting more interesting with each post. I agree this must be one of the areas of the language which can only be mastered by intuition and experience. But it is important to know at least for understanding, if not for one's own productive usage.

    I am writing a blog on my experiences as a learner of Russian (in German language), and you've already given me material enough for two blog posts in this thread. Thanks.
    Спасибо за исправления!

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    ПИР ВАМПИРОВ

    Ужастик

    Вампирам не нужны сокровища,
    они парят над миром, кровь ища,
    и жертвы волокут на кладбище,
    где лежбище у них и пастбище.

    А там мышей летучих толпища
    усаживаются за стол, пища,
    и, развернув огромный куль пищи,
    в ночи устраивают гульбище.

    Скелеты, вурдалаки, чудища,
    одеты кто во фрак, кто в рубища,
    и с ними бес, из крови варящий,
    как для товарищей, для тварей щи.

    Их легионы - нас морочащих,
    урчащих в чащах и урочищах;
    нужна невиданная силища,
    чтоб вырваться из из узилища!

    Нам, кто не преступил рубеж еще,
    лишь храм - надежное убежище,
    там - наша пристань и пристанище:
    попробуй-ка, упырь, пристань еще!

    ...А ты, попав на пир на кладбище,
    сам тут же, как вампир, осклабишься
    или пойти со сворой воющей
    не побоишься на побоище?

    (Владимир Резниченко)
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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