Thread: Remebering 'rule' for choosing aspect with negated verbs

Okay, I see your point.

When I see verbs like почитать vs прочитать I know I'm looking at something which needs to be considered as a special case; a lot of verbs have one imperfective form and a few perfectives

I think in english language role of russian prefixes is played by "on/off/by/with/around" post-particles.
There is some system in their usage... For example, IMHO, "off"-particle often acts similar to prefix "от-". But there is no strict rules and you should check meanings of new combination in dictionaries.

Yes, and I have to say I find this the hardest part of the Russian language (that and sentence structure); sometimes I just look at a familiar verb and draw a complete blank. 90% of the time I need a dictionary it's for this reason. Prefixes are fairly predictable, a lot of 'roots' of verbs are too, but add this to variable meanings with reflexive endings, and the number of verbs that sound or look very similar to each other, and verbs with a wide range of meanings, and I'm often completely stumped, even if it's a verb I've seen a few times before. Anyway, I'm not complaining...!

Not denying any of the previous explanations, I'd like to add some of my thoughts on the subject.

Imperfective aspect does mean an ongoing action, we often use imperfective when we address something as a process, when the focus is on the process itself, not on the result.

E.g. Когда я возвращалась с работы домой, мне на голову упал банан.
Literally: When I was returning from work to home a banana fell on my head.

The speaker is telling now what happened on her way home (her because of the "ась" ending), the focus here is on the process of returning.. When the gal says that, she mentally travels into that time of "walking home" and refers to the process at some middle point of it, disregarding its beginning and ending. (walking is implied because it's the only natural option with her head under open sky to be so lucky to get a banana on her head, but she also could do that by roofless car or bike, etc...).

The 'bananafall' action is mentioned using perfective aspect because this action is meant as a whole, not focusing on the process, not repeating, ongoing, etc. Just a single action. If she said "Когда я возвращалась домой, мне на голову падали бананы", that would have sounded like she was banana-bombed all the way home. Now it's a repeating/ongoing action (depending on sampling rate -- if we take into account every single banana to fall on her head, the action is repeated. If we take it how she put it, as a continuous process with multiple instances of a smaller part of it, that would be okay to say that it's an ongoing action).

Now let's take the "call me baby" example.
She went to Maldives and left her BF home; then in a couple of weeks she returns and at home her guy is going off about her not giving him a single call for all the time her being there.

Я не позвонила потому что не могла.
1st thing to say that comes to my mind is to yell: "Ты не позвонить должна была! Ты должна была звонить мне каждый божий день!"
(voice focusing the bold words). Каждый божий день = every single day (as opposed to boring "every day" - каждый день, without божий)

Then she's like:
Ну ладно. Я не звонила потому что не смогла.
(The sentence is artifically mismatched because multiple calls imply multiple takes, hence multiple fails, but she's saying "смогла" which implies one attempt on calling and one fail)His answer with playing on words with her awkward wording:
Как так? Ты две недели ... долбаных 14 дней подряд не смогла набрать мой номер?

She goes like:
Я теряла телефон, вот! (Теряла is imperfective, repeated action. The perfective is "потеряла").

He goes:
Как так? (How's that?) Вот же он - твой телефон. И ты ещё говоришь, что его теряла. Каждый день? И каждый день находила?
(Ещё is like 'yet' -- yet you say you used to lose your phone. Говоришь is imperfective because they're talking right now)

Here goes a relatively relevant excuse, just not to leave the dialog unhappyended but I hope you can fish something meaningful for your understanding out of this...

Ну да, сначала потеряла в самолёте, это выяснилось уже в гостинице. Я поехала в аэропорт и обратилась за помощью в lost&found. Меня нашли в отеле через неделю, сказали что нашли мой телефон и попросили приехать за ним в аэропорт. Я приехала и мне отдали телефон. Я приехала в отель, поставила его на зарядку и ушла на пляж. Потом пришла, взяла телефон и мы поехали кататься на квадроциклах. Когда вернулась из поездки, хотела тебе позвонить но телефон не нашла. Видимо, выронила случайно во время покатушек. Я рассказала об этом нашему гиду, сама искала его, но безуспешно. Только в последний день наш гид принёс мне телефон, сказал что нашёл на стоянке квадров. Но телефон уже был разряжен и я не смогла позвонить, а заряжать уже не было времени.

Oh, btw. What you said about negatives might refer to this perfective-imperfective mutation in imperatives (orders, requests and stuff):

- Иди сюда
- Не ходи сюда (не иди сюда is wrong)

- Вернись
- Не возвращайся (не вернись is wrong)

- Спой песню
- Не пой песню (не спой is wrong)

- Встань
- Не вставай

- Ляг
- Не ложись...

etc.

'Я не позвонила потому что не могла.'
'I did not phone you (at all, not even once) because I was (repeatedly or continuously) unable to.'

'Ты не позвонить должна была! Ты должна была звонить мне каждый божий день!'
Not sure how to translate this... 'You couldn't (at all, not even once) phone, (as you) should have! You should have phoned (repeatedly) me every goddam day!'

'Я не звонила потому что не смогла.'
'I (repeatedly or continuously) didn't phone you as I was (not even once) able to.'

Is that what's going on here?

I'm glad you (they) resolved this one; I think he was just jealous cos he got left at home all on his own...

I get what you say about the perfective-imperfective mutation in imperatives, that seems very logical to me. So maybe I'm getting a general idea of aspect. It kind of feels like I am, anyway.

'Я не позвонила потому что не могла.'
'I did not phone you (at all, not even once) because I was (repeatedly or continuously) unable to.'

'Ты не позвонить должна была! Ты должна была звонить мне каждый божий день!'
Not sure how to translate this... 'You couldn't (at all, not even once) phone, (as you) should have! You should have phoned (repeatedly) me every goddam day!'

'Я не звонила потому что не смогла.'
'I (repeatedly or continuously) didn't phone you as I was (not even once) able to.'

Is that what's going on here?

1. Yes, exactly (well, 'not even once' sonds a bit off; it's more like just 'once' because perfective refers to a single action)
2. You were not supposed to GIVE ME A CALL (позвонила=once), you were supposed to CALL ME EVERY SINGLE GODDAM DAY!
3. Я не звонила потому что не смогла = 'I (repeatedly or continuously) didn't phone you as I wasn't (ONLY once) able to.'

...not even once... again implies multiple attempts, while what she's talking about was only one attempt -- that one in between the periods when her cellphone was 'lost'.


PS. My afterthought was that your translation of the Eminem's 'Letter to Slim' / Stan wouldn't hurt to get the difference between imperfective and perfective aspects (that exerpt from his song, the one with "We waited in the blistering cold for you and you just said 'no'... ")

I thought I'd got the second one totally wrong.
I see your point about 'not even once.' I sort of combined the 'not' of 'не' with the verb itself, would have been better translated as 'wasn't (once)' etc. I think I meant the same as you did.
Eminem; a bit 'after my time' as they say. The Beatles were still a thing when I was born...
Good lyrics though, weirdly similar to a conversation I had with my ex when I got back from Indonesia.

Oh okay Those times ... will you guess then which verbs are perfective in the famous Mercury's "Show must go on"?

A hint: there are only four of them, topped up with the two in the last verse...

That sounds like a worthy challenge. One for tomorrow, I think.

Sure thing, take as much time as you need.
I don't think any of the perfective/imperfective rules are going to change till tomorrow

Maybe like this? With my way of looking at it, I can only find 3 perfectives, and one of them I can't find a Russian equivalent of the English (I'll top the bill.) Maybe there are other verbs I could have chosen instead that are perfective?

Imperfectives in italics, perfectives in bold...

"The Show Must Go On" продолжаться

Empty spaces - what are we living for живём
Abandoned places - I guess we know the score знаем
On and on, does anybody know what we are looking for... ищем
Another hero, another mindless crime
Behind the curtain, in the pantomime
Hold the line, does anybody want to take it anymore держите, хочет, терпеть
The show must go on,
The show must go on
Inside my heart is breaking ломается
My make-up may be flaking отслаивается
But my smile still stays on. продолжается
Whatever happens, I'll leave it all to chance оставлю
Another heartache, another failed romance
On and on, does anybody know what we are living for? живём
I guess I'm learning, I must be warmer now понимаю?
I'll soon be turning, round the corner now буду забрать?
Outside the dawn is breaking рассветает
But inside in the dark I'm aching to be free жажду
-
My soul is painted like the wings of butterflies
Fairytales of yesterday will grow but never die будут расти, будут умереть
I can fly - my friends могу летать
The show must go on
The show must go on
I'll face it with a grin буду терпеть?
I'm never giving in буду покидать
On - with the show -
I'll top the bill, I'll overkill буду первым?, переборщу
I have to find the will to carry on найти
On with the -
On with the show -
The show must go on...

Whatever happens, I'll leave it all to chance оставлю.
Что характерно, перевод "оставлю" is perfective (future imperfective would be "буду оставлять").
Оставлю (once). Not repeating/ongoing action.

learning = учусь

turning (round the corner...) -- the verb 'to turn' on its own is "поворачивать" but this one is an idiom 'turn the corner = the hardest thing is over, I'm gonna be better off once it's done'. There's hardly ever an equivalent idiom in Russian for that so the "заворачивать за угол" turns out to be "развязка уже близко" or something like that. And yes, the verb 'turning' here represents the concept of being in the middle of the process of 'turning' soon, which is also an imperfective indeed.

Fairytales of yesterday will grow but never die
Wow, I take these ones as pure perfective (вырастут, но никогда не умрут)

I'll face it with a grin буду терпеть? -- nope. Вытерплю. Absolutely perfective thing. Done once (in the future but who cares...).
I will face it with a grin - once (I'd even say face it with a grit)

Top the bill, yes, it's the "буду первым". Word4word franslation doesn't work here. Overkill is correct as well.

I have to find the will to carry on -- yeah, find is perfective here. I overlooked it yesterday somehow, sorry.

Bottomline
---------------------------------------------------
leave, grow, die, face -- these are perfective verbs in the song.
top, overkill, find -- these are the addendum from the last verse

Result: Good job man!

Some interesting points there, I think a couple of these are due to my interpretation of the English verbs, and some of them are used in a 'loose' sense here:-

Whatever happens, I'll leave it all to chance
I took this to mean 'whatever happens (and many things will happen, again and again,) I will always take the same approach, ie I will repeatedly, habitually 'leave it all to chance'.
Yes, if so that should have been "буду оставлять"; I somehow forgot the tense!

learning = учусь
This (to me) is an example of purposeful use of fairly poor English; I think what he really means is 'I realise...' But choosing a slightly incorrect verb implies the idea of being unsophisticated, an underdog, ill prepared and maybe even uneducated, but 'with his heart in the right place.' Maybe knowingly playing to the audience's feelings about themselves? He was a very astute writer, afterall.

Fairytales of yesterday will grow but never die
Duh. Can't believe I missed those. I suppose I was thinking of an endless stream of fairytales, continuously growing, etc; and 'not dying' as being (by definition) an ongoing state of no 'action', with no result. Dunno now!

I'll face it with a grin
This to me implies, like the case of 'leave it to chance' above, that he is stating how he intends to approach all adversity in future. So personally, I see that as continuously facing things, rather than facing something, then dealing with it, and then moving on to another thing.

I can't honestly say I know my own language that well, let alone anyone elses, so feel free to point out where I'm wrong, as I expect to have 'missed the point' at least a few times.
And thanks for the interest, too.

My interest here is simple. I want to deepen my knowledge of English (and amuse myself a little) and I guess this issue is going to help me. There's definitely some interesting points here. I think we have at least four words here which I take perfective whereas you don't. The main thing here is that they all in the Future Simple tense, i.e. Sth+Will+Verb formula. I take it for granted that you know your native language better and I can rely on your knowledge. So it's time to say:

Wtf!? How do you guys decide between momentary (instantaneous, instant) and ongoing actions in Future Simple? How do you get that "I'll face it with a grin" is an ongoing action? Why not a momentary?

Also:

Whatever happens, I'll leave it all to chance
Another heartache, another failed romance

I guess heartache and romance are things that are going (among others) to 'happen' there; they may happen maybe once and maybe more than once. That's why 'happens' and 'leave' are imperfective. Am I right?

In case of Russian, we have a perfect tool to underline whether the action is instant or ongoing, which is aspect.

'Wtf!? How do you guys decide between momentary (instantaneous, instant) and ongoing actions in Future Simple? How do you get that "I'll face it with a grin" is an ongoing action? Why not a momentary?'

I think 'face it with a grin' means 'face life with a grin'; that's basically why I would think of it as imperfective in this instance. If you had a sentence like 'I'll face this one with a grin', you'd have enough context within the statement itself to realise that it's talking about a single instance, whereas 'face it with a grin' could be either instantaneous or ongoing.

'I will be facing it with a grin' is obviously continous. I think in this case ''I'll face it with a grin' does in fact mean 'I will be facing it with a grin'. But nobody in the UK says a sentence like that, unless they're Polish! No offence, Poles...

In this case, I think the general sense of the whole song is of some ongoing attitude towards life, rather than a 'to do' list of events that are going to happen, plus his intended responses to each one. But there's no reason to see it that way if you just don't see it that way; it's there for anyone to read into it whatever they want; like tarot cards...

'I guess heartache and romance are things that are going (among others) to 'happen' there; they may happen maybe once and maybe more than once. That's why 'happens' and 'leave' are imperfective. Am I right?'

Thats the way I see it, yes. I see the whole song as a rather vague 'manifesto' for a particular approach to life, so I'm biased towards thinking of it as being a bit of a dream, where reality and consequences don't intrude. So I would take it that he's talking about many imagined scenarios of adversity in the future, which I assume would be imperfective. (as far as I understand aspect, that is...)

I suppose I could equally see it as perfective, ie 'no matter what happens to me in the future, from now on I will take 'x' attidude towards it. I will make this change of attitude only once, and when I have made that change, the change itself will be finished, although the attitude will be ongoing.' But the song doesnt make it clear either way, as far as I interpret it!

I think if the original song was in Russian, and you were considering how to translate the verbs, you'd find that you'd end up with maybe more or less the same translation, regardless of the aspect of the original (Russian) verbs. IE you maybe wouldn't need to distinguish between ongoing and instantaneous verbs, in this particular instance. None of what I say is authoritative though, only opinion...

Yeah, I'm also baffled at your thinking of "I'll leave it all to chance, I'll face it with a grin" as an ongoing action. It's not like you'll be doing whatever it is you're going to do all along waiting for it happen. Instead, you'll just do that once when the time is due and be done with that. Pure start and an end here, which indicates completion, thus perfective. Possible multiple iterations of the same actions are irrelevant here. Hope this clears things up.

I guess that's my Russian logic speaking though

'Yeah, I'm also baffled at your thinking of "I'll leave it all to chance, I'll face it with a grin" as an ongoing action. It's not like you'll be doing whatever it is you're going to do all along waiting for it happen.'

I think this may be just my personal interpretation of the song. To me, 'I'll leave it all to chance, I'll face it with a grin' would be metaphors for an ongoing attitude, a state of mind.

But I think your idea of it being 'do that once when the time is due and be done with that' is equally, if not more valid, in that it suggests only taking that attitude when necessary.

It maybe depends on whether you take the meaning of the song to be about a constant struggle, or lots of discrete struggles puncuated with periods of peace. Being a pessimist, maybe I choose to see life as a constant struggle, whereas you Russians don't...

Okay guys, I guess each one of us has found his own pot of gold here in this thread. Russian speakers found the English language not as flat as it may be thought of, English speakers made another step to clearer understanding of Russian aspects. Besides, we all had another touch to the memories of the beautiful song that is definitely one of the brilliants of the human culture.

I guess we all won here, ain't we?

Originally Posted by grafrich

Maybe like this? With my way of looking at it, I can only find 3 perfectives, and one of them I can't find a Russian equivalent of the English (I'll top the bill.) Maybe there are other verbs I could have chosen instead that are perfective?

Imperfectives in italics, perfectives in bold...

"The Show Must Go On" продолжаться

Empty spaces - what are we living for живём
Abandoned places - I guess we know the score знаем
On and on, does anybody know what we are looking for... ищем
Another hero, another mindless crime
Behind the curtain, in the pantomime
Hold the line, does anybody want to take it anymore держите, хочет, терпеть
The show must go on,
The show must go on
Inside my heart is breaking ломается
My make-up may be flaking отслаивается
But my smile still stays on. продолжается
Whatever happens, I'll leave it all to chance оставлю
Another heartache, another failed romance
On and on, does anybody know what we are living for? живём
I guess I'm learning, I must be warmer now понимаю?
I'll soon be turning, round the corner now буду забрать?
Outside the dawn is breaking рассветает
But inside in the dark I'm aching to be free жажду
-
My soul is painted like the wings of butterflies
Fairytales of yesterday will grow but never die будут расти, будут умереть
I can fly - my friends могу летать
The show must go on
The show must go on
I'll face it with a grin буду терпеть?
I'm never giving in буду покидать
On - with the show -
I'll top the bill, I'll overkill буду первым?, переборщу
I have to find the will to carry on найти
On with the -
On with the show -
The show must go on...