Thread: Question about short prepositions

In some situations I know that short prepositions have to have an "o" on the end of them, for example:

Я живу во Англии
Моя мать говорит с братом обо мне
Они едут ко мне

It seems that the most common consonant cluster this occurs with is those words beginning with "мн", like "обо мне", "со мной" etc... but as in the first example, if that's right, then there must be other clusters it occurs with. Can anyone point those out to me please, either through examples or through a site link?

Спасибо большое
Джек

"во Англии" is wrong, so that answers your question.

That may be wrong but that doesn't entirely answer my question. I thought I'd seen that written down somewhere, but obviously not. Where are the other instances where the spelling changes? I doubt it's just in those instances.

Спасибо
Джек

I've noticed that whenever nouns lose their first vowel as suffixes are attached, the final o is added to a preposition. (e.g.лев; лёд;сон)

For example:
со львами
подо льдом
во сне

Sometimes the o is added before other nouns, but I think these are historical spellings and must be memorized. (во Францию; со стола)

The correct ways with "во":

Поездка во Францию.
Нет смысла во вражде.

So, "o" is added when the rhythmics of speech is needed. Otherwise, it's incovenient to pronounce. Also, it's incovenient to listen when someone says "В Францию" because it sounds like "Ффранцию" and you can't clearly hear the preposition.

Sometimes, the sense can be lost without "o":

В главе. = In the chapter.
Во главе. = In the head [of something].

Спасибо за объяснения; они очень полезные. Есть много сторонах русской грамматике, которые я не понимаю.

Спасибо за ваша помощь
Джек

Vowels are added after prepositions for ease of pronunciation. Remember, prepositions in Russian are pronounced without a pause between them and the proceeding word. As a general word of thumb, "long" prepositions are used when the following word begins with two or more consonants:

со сметаной - with smetana. (because two с and a м is difficult)
ко мне (because кмне is too hard to say).
во Франции (because in в Франции the в would devoice to ф thus giving франции).

о сhanges to об before vowels. об Италии.
обо мне, обо всём are exceptions, just learn them.

во всех городах - (because ввсех is too mant consonants in a row.)

It seems to me that the preposition is extended when the sound of the preposition reoccurs in the immediately following noun - but I'm not sure, so these may be wrong:

Игорь едет ко Катье
У меня интерес ко китайю
Я говорю со солдатами, которые дерутся во войне

That's how it seems to me at the moment anyhow. I realise that there are other times the preposition changes but they probably just need to be memorised.

Большое спасибо за помощь. Вы мне много дали.
Джек
[/b]

I've never considered that before, but I think your first assumption about the role of "letter clusters" is right, because additional "o" doesn't necessarily appears before words, which begin with two or even more consonants:
к стреле
в Брест
с пряником

It seems it tends to appear before certain combinations of consonants (мн-, вз-, вс-, etc.).

Also your latter theory proved to be wrong:
Игорь едет к Кате
У меня интерес к Китаю (or "Я интересуюсь Китаем")
Я говорю с солдатами, которые сражаются в войне (it should be "на войне", I left "в" as an example of "в-в" cluster).

In short just try to remember these clusters as you encounter them, later you'll develop a gut feeling about it.

Originally Posted by JackBoni

It seems to me that the preposition is extended when the sound of the preposition reoccurs in the immediately following noun - but I'm not sure, so these may be wrong:

Игорь едет ко Катье
У меня интерес ко китайю
Я говорю со солдатами, которые дерутся во войне

That's how it seems to me at the moment anyhow. I realise that there are other times the preposition changes but they probably just need to be memorised.

Большое спасибо за помощь. Вы мне много дали.
Джек
[/b]

No. You're wrong, it's due to a string of consonants being formed. If a word begins Consonant-Vowel then you won't get a long preposition.

The word must begin with at least two consonants in a row.

When you have a repeated consonant, it's merely pronounced slightly longer.

с сыром
с солдатом
к Кате

The consonant sound is just slightly longer.

And it's на войне

Originally Posted by TATY

No. You're wrong, it's due to a string of consonants being formed. If a word begins Consonant-Vowel then you won't get a long preposition. The word must begin with at least two consonants in a row.

Duh! Have you seen my example? All words begin with two consonants:

к стреле
в Брест
с пряником

And it's на войне

AND I told it. It seems you didn't read my post properly.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by TATY

No. You're wrong, it's due to a string of consonants being formed. If a word begins Consonant-Vowel then you won't get a long preposition. The word must begin with at least two consonants in a row.

Duh! Have you seen my example? All words begin with two consonants:

к стреле
в Брест
с пряником

[quote:6qui3lrc]And it's на войне

AND I told it. It seems you didn't read my post properly.[/quote:6qui3lrc]

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean that long prepositions must be used with nouns beginning with two or more consonants. I meant long prepositions are only used with nouns beginning with at least two consonants, i.e. if a noun begins with one consnant, like most of JackBoni's did, then long prepositions won't be used.

Originally Posted by TATY

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean that long prepositions must be used with nouns beginning with two or more consonants. I meant long prepositions are only used with nouns beginning with at least two consonants, i.e. if a noun begins with one consnant, like most of JackBoni's did, then long prepositions won't be used.

Oh, ok. I see now.
But I was trying to find some pattern apart from that. Definitely there must be some rule, but I'm afraid, Russian native speakers can't help with it, because it comes to us naturally.

Ptobably a proficient RSL learner or a good Russian grammar book for foreigh learners could help.

Originally Posted by JackBoni

Спасибо за объяснения; они очень полезные. Есть много сторон_ (genitive plural here) русской грамматики, которых я не понимаю.

Спасибо за вашу помощь
Джек

Вы мне много дали

It sounds bad in this context. Better: Вы мне очень помогли.

Я думаю, что я понимаю теперь тему. Я думаю, что я буду понимать очень лучше, после того, как я читал больше русского. Мне надо чаще читать.

Большое спасибо за вашу помощь и объяснения

Джек

Originally Posted by JackBoni

Я думаю, что я понимаю теперь тему. Я думаю, что я буду понимать очень лучше, после того, как я читал больше русского. Мне надо чаще читать.

Большое спасибо за вашу помощь и объяснения

Джек

Much more, much better, much bigger, much whatever,
much = намного.

после того, как я прочитал (perfective aspect).
I think you need to say "больше по-русски", but I'm not sure.

Right. Why is it the perfective on this occasion? I attempted to say "I think I'll understand better after I've read more Russian" - surely this act of gaining understanding about the topic would not happen after one instance of reading, so doesn't that qualify as a repeated action and therefore imperfective?

Also, if I were to use намного meaning "more", which case would follow it - I'm guessing the genitive, because anything that implies a quantity tends to take the genitive? Again, if I'm wrong about this too, then please correct me

Спасибо за вашу помощь и ваше терпение
Джек

Я думаю, что я понимаю теперь тему.

This sentence is a bit strange... I'm afraid I don't catch what you mean writing "тема".

Я думаю, что я буду понимать намного лучше/больше, после того, как начну больше читать по-русски. (I know you used the past tense here, "I've read", but it's better to use the future tense in this sentence in Russian) Мне надо чаще читать.

P.S. "после того, как я прочитал" is wrong here.

P.P.S. You could say "после того, как я прочитаю больше книг (for example) на русском".

It would probably have been better if I had left out "тема" altogether, as the meaning isn't clear. You must use the future tense in Russian if it is implied, then?

Я буду говорить очень хорошо по-русски, когда я буду изучать много.
Я куплю что-нибудь наверное, когда я поеду в книжный магазин

Спасибо за помощь

Джек

Originally Posted by JackBoni

Я буду говорить очень хорошо по-русски, когда я буду изучать много.
Я куплю что-нибудь наверное, когда я поеду в книжный магазин

Could you please write the second sentence in English?

As for the first one, I'm afraid I even don't know how to correct it.
Я буду говорить очень хорошо по-русски, когда....... выучу много правил и новых слов, maybe...