The Pluperfect Tense - I had read etc...

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July 27th, 2007, 03:28 PM
JackBoni

The Pluperfect Tense - I had read etc...

Hello

I've been reading through some grammar books that I have at home, however none of them, however supposedly comprehensive, have any kind of entry for what we call the "Pluperfect Tense" in English. In English an example would be something like:

After I had finished reading my book, I started started to do my homework.
After he had woken up, he was in a very bad mood.

The "had" is the grammar point I want to clear up. It is however different from "I had a dog", which is just English past tense.

Thanks for your help!!! Jack[/b]
July 27th, 2007, 03:44 PM
Rtyom

Are you sure that you did not fail because of using incorrect terminology? The term "Pluperfect" is uncommon in Anglistics. At least I have never encountered with it. The term "Plusquamperfect" is wider used but never with English. Again, it is rare to encounter under the Russian tradition of studying English. I must admit that you want to refer to "Past Perfect", that is being the common term.
July 27th, 2007, 04:28 PM
scotcher

Pluperfect is the correct term.

Russian doesn't have a pluperfect tense, that function is covered by a combination of verbal aspect, or context.
July 27th, 2007, 07:36 PM
Zaya

JackBoni
Yeah, you'll have other problems with Russian, not 'how to form the analogous tense'.)) We have only three tenses, don't you know that?

I'd recommend you to read general information about Russian to know what you've faced with. :wink: :)

pluperfect technical
the past perfect tense of a verb
(Longman)
no marks such 'old use' etc.

But I agree with Rtyom that 'Past Perfect' is used much more often than 'Pluperfect'. Is it used anyway? (Да оно вообще используется?) Frankly speaking, I've never come across it.

Please, please correct my mistakes if there're any.)
July 27th, 2007, 07:39 PM
Indra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaya

We have only three tenses, don't you know that?

It will be five if we count perfective and imperfective words separately.
July 27th, 2007, 07:42 PM
Оля

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indra

It will be five if we count perfective and imperfective words separately.

Всё равно это по-божески. :D
July 27th, 2007, 07:47 PM
Zaya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaya

We have only three tenses, don't you know that?

It will be five if we count perfective and imperfective words separately.

They aren't called 'tenses' in Russian. :P
July 28th, 2007, 04:12 PM
TATY

Re: The Pluperfect Tense - I had read etc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackBoni

Hello

I've been reading through some grammar books that I have at home, however none of them, however supposedly comprehensive, have any kind of entry for what we call the "Pluperfect Tense" in English. In English an example would be something like:

After I had finished reading my book, I started started to do my homework.
After he had woken up, he was in a very bad mood.

The "had" is the grammar point I want to clear up. It is however different from "I had a dog", which is just English past tense.

Thanks for your help!!! Jack[/b]

In English the verb 'to have' has two functions:

It's main meaning is to express possession.

I have a cat (present)
I had a dog (past), etc.

It's second function is as an auxilliary verb used in the tense system.

I have played.

In French also to have 'avoir', works the same:

J'ai un chien - I have a dog
J'ai jou
July 28th, 2007, 04:20 PM
Lampada

Я вже було пiшов, але раптом згадав, що ... ?
July 28th, 2007, 04:31 PM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lampada

Я вже було пiшов, але раптом згадав, що ... ?

I think бути has to agree with the subject.
And it's aж, not але

ВНОЧІ БУВ ШУМ. НАПАВ ХТОСЬ НА ФОРТЕЦЮ.
Чи, може, вартовим спросоння приверзлось.
А я вже був зрадів. Уже хотів стріляти.
Вже вискочив на мур. То, певно, був їжак.
Бо щось таки пішло, прошаруділо в хащі.
Нікого не зловлю, хоч би хоч і погнавсь.
Так тоскно на душі. Ми навіть не пропащі.
Ми просто вже ніхто. І всім вже не до нас.

http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0% ... 0%B0%D1%81

I read that this tense exists in ALL Slavic languages apart from Russian.
July 28th, 2007, 04:51 PM
DDT

Quote:

After I had finished reading my book, I started started to do my homework.
After he had woken up, he was in a very bad mood.

As a native speaker of English, these instances of "had" are irrelevant in the sentences. In these sentences the omission of "had' would not change the meaning. And as a matter of fact I think that "had" is over used and possibly just a crutch to add meaningless babble to a sentence!
July 28th, 2007, 05:07 PM
Lampada

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDT

Quote:

After I had finished reading my book, I started started to do my homework.
After he had woken up, he was in a very bad mood.

As a native speaker of English, these instances of "had" are irrelevant in the sentences. In these sentences the omission of "had' would not change the meaning. And as a matter of fact I think that "had" is over used and possibly just a crutch to add meaningless babble to a sentence!

Yes! :D
July 28th, 2007, 05:15 PM
Matilda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lampada

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDT

Quote:

After I had finished reading my book, I started started to do my homework.
After he had woken up, he was in a very bad mood.

As a native speaker of English, these instances of "had" are irrelevant in the sentences. In these sentences the omission of "had' would not change the meaning. And as a matter of fact I think that "had" is over used and possibly just a crutch to add meaningless babble to a sentence!

Yes! :D

But will it sound more unformal?
July 28th, 2007, 05:30 PM
Lampada

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matilda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lampada

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDT

Quote:

After I had finished reading my book, I started started to do my homework.
After he had woken up, he was in a very bad mood.

As a native speaker of English, these instances of "had" are irrelevant in the sentences. In these sentences the omission of "had' would not change the meaning. And as a matter of fact I think that "had" is over used and possibly just a crutch to add meaningless babble to a sentence!

Yes! :D

But will it sound more unformal?

Не знаю. Я сказала "Да" несерьёзно: терпеть не могу эти хэв-хэды. :oops:
July 28th, 2007, 06:36 PM
shadow1

Re: The Pluperfect Tense - I had read etc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackBoni

After I had finished reading my book, I started started to do my homework.
After he had woken up, he was in a very bad mood.

Aside from the fact that you said "started" twice, should not it be

After I had finished reading my book, I had started to do my homework.
After he had woken up, he had been in a very bad mood.

or maybe

After I finished reading my book, I started to do my homework.
After he woke up, he was in a very bad mood.

Just my opinion. I am not a native English speaker.
July 28th, 2007, 08:12 PM
E-learner

Quote:

Я вже був пiшов, аж раптом згадав

И чем это отличается, для практических целей, от русского
Я уже было пошел...?
July 29th, 2007, 12:13 PM
Lampada

Quote:

Originally Posted by TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lampada

Я вже було пiшов, але раптом згадав, що ... ?

I think бути has to agree with the subject.
And it's aж, not але

ВНОЧІ БУВ ШУМ. НАПАВ ХТОСЬ НА ФОРТЕЦЮ.
Чи, може, вартовим спросоння приверзлось.
А я вже був зрадів. Уже хотів стріляти.
Вже вискочив на мур. То, певно, був їжак.
Бо щось таки пішло, прошаруділо в хащі.
Нікого не зловлю, хоч би хоч і погнавсь.
Так тоскно на душі. Ми навіть не пропащі.
Ми просто вже ніхто. І всім вже не до нас. ...

Я проконсультировалась с носительницей украинского языка, и вот, что она мне ответила:
"... а "був пішов" это старомодный язык, так теперь только на селе говорят, о чем Тату и написал - "oldish pluperfect tense used in colloquial speech"

Он, правда, не прав в этом:

Quote:

And it's aж, not але

Там должно быть именно але, аж неправильно, но на селе так тоже говорят. ..."
July 29th, 2007, 12:18 PM
TATY

I heard that the pluperfect in Ukrainian is regaining popularity though.
July 29th, 2007, 02:41 PM
Zaya

Quote:

Originally Posted by TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lampada

Я вже було пiшов, але раптом згадав, що ... ?

I think бути has to agree with the subject.
And it's aж, not але

ВНОЧІ БУВ ШУМ. НАПАВ ХТОСЬ НА ФОРТЕЦЮ.
Чи, може, вартовим спросоння приверзлось.
А я вже був зрадів. Уже хотів стріляти.
Вже вискочив на мур. То, певно, був їжак.
Бо щось таки пішло, прошаруділо в хащі.
Нікого не зловлю, хоч би хоч і погнавсь.
Так тоскно на душі. Ми навіть не пропащі.
Ми просто вже ніхто. І всім вже не до нас.

http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0% ... 0%B0%D1%81

I read that this tense exists in ALL Slavic languages apart from Russian.

Геть забула)) хоч і сама інколи користуюся.

Давноминулий час, грам. Дієслівна форма минулого часу, яка виражає дію, що передувала іншій минулій дії.
(Новий тлумачний словник української мови)

Давноминулий час дієслова складається з форм минулого часу цього дієслова та відповідних форм минулого часу допоміжного дієслова бути: ходив був, ходила була, ходили були.
(довідник "Український правопис")

Давноминулий час означає минулу дію, що відбувалася перед іншою минулою дією. Виражається аналітичною формою - родовою формою допоміжного дієслова бути + дієслово минулого часу: прийшов був, сказала була, були надіслали. Уживається в художніх текстах для підсилення розмовного колориту мовлення: Ой був комар оженився (П. Чубинський); В кооперативі вчора дядьки були завелися (А. Головко); Він щось почав був говорити, та судді річ його спочатку перебили (Є. Гребінка).
(довідник "Сучасна українська мова")

Плюсквамперфект (лат. plusquamperfectum, букв. - більше, ніж закінчене) - дієслівна форма минулого часу, яка трапляється в багатьох мовах і виражає дію, що передувала іншій минулій дії. Залишки форм давноминулого часу збереглися в українській мові, <...>.
(Словник іншомовних слів)

Отже, вживається цей час в художньому та розмовному стилях, не дуже часто, бо може бути з легкістю замінений на минулий (що, звичайно, вплине на стилістичне забарвлення, але граматично обидва варіанти вірні). Мені дечим нагадує німецький Plusquamperfekt. Ще можу додати, що у школі його не вчать (принаймні при мені не вчили), а у довідниках не виділяють для нього окремого розділу (про нього пишуть там, де і про минулий).
July 29th, 2007, 02:49 PM
Zaya

Quote:

Originally Posted by E-learner

Quote:

Я вже був пiшов, аж раптом згадав

И чем это отличается, с практической точки зрения, от русского
Я уже было пошел...?

С практической, может, и ничем, но мы не о том говорим, а о грамматических временах)

Я уже было пошла...
Она уже было пошла...
Он уже было пошёл...

Здесь "было" - частица, а в украинском используется для этих целей вспомогательный глагол "бути" (читается "буты"), который спрягается. Именно поэтому в русском эта конструкция не является грамматическим временем (плюсквамперфектом).

Quote:

БЫЛО частица
1. Употр. при обозначении того, что действие началось или предполагалось, но в силу каких-л. причин, обстоятельств было прервано или не завершилось.

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