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Thread: Need help with the T-K construction

  1. #1
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    Need help with the T-K construction

    I don't know if this is the proper name for it, but that's the name of it here: The Russian T-K Constructions.

    Does anyone have any more information on this, or know the name of it?

  2. #2
    qza
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    You can compare with english constructions if it will help you. I think it will not difficult.
    Буду очень рад, если Вы исправите мои ошибки как в русском, так и в английском языке (-ах).
    Но изменение смысла или удаление оригинальных сообщений не способствует изучению живого языка!

  3. #3
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    I don't think that works

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    Почтенный гражданин bitpicker's Avatar
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    True, English doesn't help here. I can see how that may pose a problem when you come from English as your native language (and possibly others which have no case system to speak of).

    I think the explanation given on the site is pretty clear. English doesn't have to worry about cases, and the example given is We talked about what you were reading. "What" acts like a hinge combining the two halves of the sentence because it both refers to "about" and to "reading": What were you talking about? What were you reading?

    As "what" works both ways one might presume, coming from English, that the same mechanism works in Russian, but it doesn't. You can translate the first half of the sentence like this: Мы говорили о том, which in English is rendered as "we were talking about what". But о том may not be the object of the verb читать here, so you cannot just go on saying о том вы читали as you can in English. Читать requires an object in accusative case. Therefore a comma separates the two phrases neatly, and a second pronoun is inserted after it which fulfils the requirement of accusative case: Мы говорили о том, что вы читали. This is more like "We were talking about that / which you were reading". You might feel like this is a slightly more convoluted way of saying the same thing as with "what", and in fact I have found that "Could I express this in a slightly more convoluted fashion?" is a thought which helps me write better Russian, even coming from German as a native language. Russian likes neatly separated complete main and dependent clauses, where English tends to condensate them.

    It's a bit of an oversight that the website you linked to calls it T-K construction, saying that a second pronoun beginning with "к" usually follows, and then goes on primarily giving examples with что. I don't think there's a standard name for the phenomenon as it would be something a native speaker never needs to think about.
    Спасибо за исправления!

    Вам нравится этот форум, и вы изучаете немецкий язык? Вот похожий форум о немецком языке.

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    I think the explanation given on the site is pretty clear.
    I don't think so, I don't get things there.
    You can translate the first half of the sentence like this: Мы говорили о том, which in English is rendered as "we were talking about what".
    I'd rather translate it "we were talking about". The pronoun "том" is not "what" here.

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    Почтенный гражданин Demonic_Duck's Avatar
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    No, it should be "we were talking about that". "We were talking about" doesn't make any sense on its own.
    Демоническая Утка
    Носитель английского языка, учу русский язык.
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои сообщения!

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    Увлечённый спикер mudrets's Avatar
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    Since we're talking about ТО ЧТО, I'd like to point out that there's another possible translation. In some cases ТО ЧТО can mean "the fact that". Usually context indicates which translation makes sense, but not always. I think the example Мы говорили о том, что вы читали. can mean either We talked about what you read. or We talked about the fact that you read.

    Feel free to correct my mistakes.
    Будьте вольны исправлять мои ошибки.

  8. #8
    qza
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    mudrets
    We talked about (that,) what you read

    that = то -> о то(м)
    this = это
    то и это that and this
    what = что
    Буду очень рад, если Вы исправите мои ошибки как в русском, так и в английском языке (-ах).
    Но изменение смысла или удаление оригинальных сообщений не способствует изучению живого языка!

  9. #9
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    So, basically, the verbs in each case require the same object to be in 2 different cases, which is impossible, so 2 pronouns are used to overcome this problem. That also explains why the pronouns are paired, the "то"-side is a demonstrative and the other side must be its interrogative counterpart. Which means the pairs are:

    то, что (what)
    то, кто (who)
    такой, какой (what kind of)
    так, как (how)
    там, где (where)
    туда, куда (to where)
    оттуда, откуда (from where)
    тогда, когда (when)
    столько, сколько (how many)
    потому, почему (why)

    http://www.alphadictionary.com/rusgr...n.html#tkpairs

    Thanks, guys, you've helped me a lot. I've also seen "То, что" at the beginning of a sentence, but I'm unclear as to what it means here. Having "То" as a whole clause seems odd, unless it's as simple as a clause swap. "Мы говорили о том, что вы читали" -> "о том, что вы читали, мы говорили" (I'm not sure if this is right, call it an educated guess :P).

  10. #10
    qza
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    о том, что вы читали, мы говорили - it is correct
    possible also
    о том, что читали вы, мы говорили (уже)
    о том, что читали вы, говорили мы (тоже)
    and even
    о том, читали вы что, мы говорили (не раз) (in poem, for example )

    or for example

    Что читали вы, о том мы (и) говорили.

    (In these phrases the intonation can be changed in depend on context)

    You can say also - Мы говорили о чём вы читали
    but
    Мы говорили о том, о чём (or что) вы читали - is more correct.

    Мы говорили о что вы читали - is not correct (it is english variant ),

    but

    Мы обсуждали что вы читали - is correct, like - Мы говорили о чём вы читали.

    because "обсуждать что" = "говорить о чём"

    Мы говорили ему, что вы читали (на этот раз) - is possible, we tell him name of book (what) you read
    Буду очень рад, если Вы исправите мои ошибки как в русском, так и в английском языке (-ах).
    Но изменение смысла или удаление оригинальных сообщений не способствует изучению живого языка!

  11. #11
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    Thanks, qza

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