Thread: Chapter 23 questions

This is just a quick question on the dialogue that begins this chapter. There is this sentence: Можно вас пригласить в ресторан, вот там, над городом? Is the word над here pronounced with a final /d/ and not /t/, since it is linked to городом?

Z

Originally Posted by zorro

This is just a quick question on the dialogue that begins this chapter. There is this sentence: Можно вас пригласить в ресторан, вот там, над городом? Is the word над here pronounced with a final /d/ and not /t/, since it is linked to городом?

Z

Yes.

The regressive voice adjustment even spreads beyond lexical borders.
For example, if a speaker says "вес бутылки" (weight of the bottle) without a pause, it becomes [вЕзбутЫлки], and "вот город" (here is the town) becomes [вОдгОрат]. But if a speaker makes even a tiny pause, this effect disappears: [вЕс бутЫлки], [вОт гОрат]. This is because Russians are just "physically unable" to pronounce two consecutive consonants with different voicing (it requires some training when learning a foreign language pronunciation).

As to the prepositions, there is usually no pause after a preposition, so the effect is always in force. So, "над полем" sounds as [натпОлим], but "над городом" as [надгОрадам].

This is very helpful. It's not only because над is linked to another word that the /t/ sound becomes /d/ but that it's linked to a word beginning with a voiced consonant. I need to pay more attention to this. Thank you.

Z

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

The regressive voice adjustment even spreads beyond lexical borders.
For example, if a speaker says "вес бутылки" (weight of the bottle) without a pause, it becomes [вЕзбутЫлки], and "вот город" (here is the town) becomes [вОдгОрат]. But if a speaker makes even a tiny pause, this effect disappears: [вЕс бутЫлки], [вОт гОрат]. This is because Russians are just "physically unable" to pronounce two consecutive consonants with different voicing (it requires some training when learning a foreign language pronunciation).

As to the prepositions, there is usually no pause after a preposition, so the effect is always in force. So, "над полем" sounds as [натпОлим], but "над городом" as [надгОрадам].

With that said, Zorro, would you mind trying to guess how you should link these two words?

без сдачи

Is this a trick question?
I would guess that без ends in a /z/ sound here since the /s/ in сдачи becomes a /z/ because its followed by a voiced /d/.

Z

Originally Posted by zorro

Is this a trick question?

Well, it was supposed to be such a question but you killed the trick by being correct

Anyway, one question is still in the air. How do you link the two "з" in the natural flow of speech? However, I don't doubt you already know the answer for that as well

I can only guess, since I haven't done any conversation yet. I would guess that the /z/ sound between без and сдачи would be doubled, for clarity. Maybe?

Z

Originally Posted by zorro

I can only guess, since I haven't done any conversation yet. I would guess that the /z/ sound between без and сдачи would be doubled, for clarity. Maybe?

Z

No, it won't, if you double it it won't sound naturally but as if you have troubles with pronuncing the words, because you'll have to make a pause between words to enunciate the "з" sound twice, and as Боб Уайтман said, "the regressive voice adjustment rule" wouldn't apply in that case. So, with a pause it's pronounced as /бес здачи/.

So what do you do to link the two words into one? Well, you would sustain the sound in situations like this. What do I mean by sustain? Well, that you'll simply pronounce the doubled sound a little bit longer than if it was just a single sound. That's how native speakers differentiate between constructions like this

сестрой vs. с сестрой
войне - в войне

and so on.

But don't make it too long, just slightly longer

Anyway, I think I'm done here. I hope this helps

I'm a little confused now. Would с сестрой be pronounced /z/ сестрой and в войне as /f/ войне so the preposition doesn't blend with the noun?

Z

Originally Posted by zorro

I'm a little confused now. Would с сестрой be pronounced /z/ сестрой and в войне as /f/ войне so the preposition doesn't blend with the noun?

Z

No, it would be pronounced like

/s:estroi/
/v":"oine/

I think you know what this ":" symbol means in IPA? It means a long sound. In this case a long consonant

So
сестрой - /sestroi/
с сестрой - /s":"estroi/

войне - /voine/
в войне - /v":"oine/

But без сдачи would be /бес здачи/ and not /без":"дачи/? In normal conversation would this be a noticeable difference?
I appreciate your help.

Z

Originally Posted by zorro

But без сдачи would be /бес здачи/ and not /без":"дачи/? In normal conversation would this be a noticeable difference?
I appreciate your help.

Z

/бес здачи/ is only possible if you make a pause between the two words, but if you don't make one, and to be frank you almost always don't, it would be /без":"дачи/. And yes, we always hear the difference between those two, as we hear the difference between с сестрой and сестрой and so on

That's clear. Thanks.

Z

There is a section on indirect speech in this chapter with some exercises. Are these sentences grammatically correct?

Мы пообещали, что будем дома без двадцати восемь. (We promised we would be home at 7:40.)
Они пообещали, что вернутся сюда через двадцать минут. (They promised they would return here in twenty minutes.)
Экскурсовод пообещал, что угостит нас мороженым. (The tour guide promised he would treat us to ice cream.)

Then there's another exercise, where I need to choose imperfective or perfective aspect. There are a few I'm not sure of.

оставаться/остаться
Наша группа (will stay) в Тбилиси до вторника.
Is it будет оставаться?

приглашать/пригласить
Маша (invited) меня на дачу, но я не мог ехать.
Is it the imperfective, приглашала, because the invitation wasn't accepted?

Thanks for any help,
Z

Originally Posted by zorro

There is a section on indirect speech in this chapter with some exercises. Are these sentences grammatically correct?

Мы пообещали, что будем дома без двадцати восемь. (We promised we would be home at 7:40.)
Они пообещали, что вернутся сюда через двадцать минут. (They promised they would return here in twenty minutes.)
Экскурсовод пообещал, что угостит нас мороженым. (The tour guide promised he would treat us to ice cream.)

Yes, they are.

Originally Posted by zorro

Then there's another exercise, where I need to choose imperfective or perfective aspect. There are a few I'm not sure of.

оставаться/остаться
Наша группа (will stay) в Тбилиси до вторника.
Is it будет оставаться?

приглашать/пригласить
Маша (invited) меня на дачу, но я не мог ехать.
Is it the imperfective, приглашала, because the invitation wasn't accepted?

Наша группа останется (perfective - future tense) в Тбилиси до вторника. - I would use this one to just convey the fact that the group stays in Tbilisy till Tuesday.
Наша группа остаётся (imperfective - present tense) в Тбилиси до вторника - I'd use this one to do the same thing as written above but this phrase also implies that this stay till Tuesday is planned.

But those two are kind of grey area, because they can be used interchangably I suppose. Depends on a particular person I guess

Маша пригласила меня на дачу, но я не мог поехать. Пригласила is used because you just imply the fact of being invited, that doesn't matter if you accepted it or not.
Не мог поехать is used because не мог ехать sounds like you didn't have the ability (not possibility!) to ехать at that moment

One more thing, I think your Russian is already good enough to tell you this. I hope it won't confuse you. If it does, just ignore the following:

Маша приглашала меня на дачу, но я не мог поехать - this one is also possible but it carries a little bit different meaning. Here it sounds like Masha was inviting you to the dacha very persistenly, in other words she did it more than one time.

I imagine it like that:

Masha: Let's go to the dacha, shall we?
You: I'd love to but I can't
Masha: Maybe you can after all?
You: No, I can't
Masha: Please, let's go to the dacha...



I hope this helps

Thanks iCake. A couple more questions.

--Когда вы (will be picking) абрикосы и персики?
--Абрикосы мы уже (are picking), а персики (will pick) через две недели.

Is it будете собирать/собираем/соберём?


Also can you use это in the neuter in a sentence with a plural noun? For example is this grammatically correct? Это--более дорогые часы, чем те.


Then there is this exercise about comparatives, changing from a чем clause using the nominative to using the genitive without чем.
In this example do both двадцать and второй get put in the genitive?

Этот урок легче, чем двадцать второй.
Этот урок легче двадцати втрого.


I'm confused about this translation too. Is this right?

The saleswoman showed my parents a black fur cap, but they didn't like it.
Продавщица показала моим родителям чёрную меховую шапку, но она им не понравилась.

Thank you for your help,
Z

Originally Posted by zorro

--Когда вы (will be picking) абрикосы и персики?
--Абрикосы мы уже (are picking), а персики (will pick) через две недели.

Is it будете собирать/собираем/соберём?

all correct

Originally Posted by zorro

Also can you use это in the neuter in a sentence with a plural noun? For example is this grammatically correct? Это--более дорогые часы, чем те.

correct
Это более дорогие часы, чем те

Originally Posted by zorro

Then there is this exercise about comparatives, changing from a чем clause using the nominative to using the genitive without чем.
In this example do both двадцать and второй get put in the genitive?

Этот урок легче, чем двадцать второй.

correct

Originally Posted by zorro

Этот урок легче двадцати втрого.

Этот урок легче двадцать второго.

Originally Posted by zorro

The saleswoman showed my parents a black fur cap, but they didn't like it.
Продавщица показала моим родителям чёрную меховую шапку, но она им не понравилась.

it is correct but it's not 100% clear
Because in Russian all nouns have gender, sometimes you need to specify which noun you meant
In this sentence both шапка and продавщица are nouns with feminine gender, because of that it is unclear what the parents didn't like - the cap or the saleswoman
English sentence suggests that the parents didn't like the cup, so to be specific you need to say something like this
Продавщица показала моим родителям чёрную меховую шапку, но шапка им не понравилась.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

The regressive voice adjustment even spreads beyond lexical borders.
For example, if a speaker says "вес бутылки" (weight of the bottle) without a pause, it becomes [вЕзбутЫлки], and "вот город" (here is the town) becomes [вОдгОрат]. But if a speaker makes even a tiny pause, this effect disappears: [вЕс бутЫлки], [вОт гОрат]. This is because Russians are just "physically unable" to pronounce two consecutive consonants with different voicing (it requires some training when learning a foreign language pronunciation).

As to the prepositions, there is usually no pause after a preposition, so the effect is always in force. So, "над полем" sounds as [натпОлим], but "над городом" as [надгОрадам].

I've never noticed that
Weird but I gotta say you are correct, it is very hard for me to say [надпОлим]

Originally Posted by zorro

--Когда вы (will be picking) абрикосы и персики?
--Абрикосы мы уже (are picking), а персики (will pick) через две недели.

Is it будете собирать/собираем/соберём?

I would say in the last case both "соберём" and "будем собирать" are possible, depending on what you focus at. More context is needed.

As to me, I think "... а персики будем собирать через две недели" sounds even more natural than "соберём" if no additional context provided. Of course, if the asker is interested in the result (e.g. the asker is a sales manager who is waiting to buy peaches in order to distibute them in his supermarket network), then the expected answer would be "соберём через две недели". Otherwise, I understand the question as a question about someone's plans to do this activity (focused on the action, not on its result).

Originally Posted by zorro

Also can you use это in the neuter in a sentence with a plural noun? For example is this grammatically correct? Это--более дорогые часы, чем те.

As Doomer said, yes. But please note: дорогие. The "гы" syllable just does not exist in Russian words

Compare:
Это дом.
Это книга.
Это окно.
Это дома. Это книги. Это окна.
but:
Этот дом новый.
Эта книга новая.
Это окно новое.
Эти дома новые. Эти книги новые. Эти окна новые.

When "это" is used to mean "it is", it never changes.

Originally Posted by zorro

Then there is this exercise about comparatives, changing from a чем clause using the nominative to using the genitive without чем.
In this example do both двадцать and второй get put in the genitive?

Этот урок легче, чем двадцать второй.
Этот урок легче двадцати втрого.

двадцать второго.

In cardinal numerals, all parts decline (Nom/Acc двадцать один, Gen двадцати одного, Dat двадцати одному, Inst. двадцатью одним, Prep. (о) двадцати одном).
In ordinal numerals, only the last word declines (Nom/Acc двадцать первый, Gen двадцать первого, Dat двадцать первому, Inst. двадцать первым, Prep. (о) двадцать первом).

Even with larger numbers:

236 748

Cardinal
двести тридцать шесть тысяч семьсот сорок восемь
Gen:
(без) двухсот тридцати шести тысяч семисот сорока восьми (рублей)

Ordinal
двести тридцать шесть тысяч семьсот сорок восьмой
Gen:
(без) двести тридцать шесть тысяч семьсот сорок восьмого (номера)

Originally Posted by zorro

I'm confused about this translation too. Is this right?

The saleswoman showed my parents a black fur cap, but they didn't like it.
Продавщица показала моим родителям чёрную меховую шапку, но она им не понравилась.

I would say, it is right and understandable.
Theoretically it can be ambiguous (as Doomer noted): "она" can stand for either "продавшица" or "шапка".
But from the context, it is pretty much clear they meant the cap, not the saleswoman