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Thread: Chapter 21 questions

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    Chapter 21 questions

    Hello all,

    I'm just beginning this chapter and have a question on the dialogue that begins the chapter. One of the characters, Kolya, says "Ну что ж, пошли", which on the English side says, "Well, let's go". Can "пойдём" also mean "let's go"? I've only learned "пошли" as a past tense form so far. How does that work as "let's go"?

    Z

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    Its like saying "I'm gone" or "We're gone" in English when you're leaving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    One of the characters, Kolya, says "Ну что ж, пошли", which on the English side says, "Well, let's go". Can "пойдём" also mean "let's go"?
    Yes, it can: "Ну что ж, пошли! = Ну что ж, пойдём!"

    I've only learned "пошли" as a past tense form so far. How does that work as "let's go"?
    In colloquial speech, past tense forms of verbs of motion are often used to express an invitation to go together (like пошли! поехали! побежали! полетели! поплыли! etc.) or a command (note - if a command, it sounds rude): пошёл вон отсюда! (go away from here!) etc.

    Usage of past tense intensifies the imperative sentense (as if we are half a way already to get something done).

    Note. Although it can be used with other verbs sometimes, the most typical usage of this form is verbs of motion.
    Yulia65 likes this.

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    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Zorro, are you talking about my blog?
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    Zorro, are you talking about my blog?
    It's funny. Zorro has his own chapter book: Lesson 13 questions

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    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada View Post
    It's funny. Zorro has his own chapter book: Lesson 13 questions
    Whoops! LOL I was confused because there is also a Kolya in my story.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    Deborski--No it's just the dialogue in the grammar book I'm working through.

    Another question: I need the choose the imperfective or perfective aspect.

    сегодня я (received)только одно письмо от брата, но завтра я, наверно, (will receive) 2-3 письма от своих друзей.
    Is the first получил and the second буду получать?

    Also how is "2-3" said in speech? We say "two to three" or "two or three" in English. Is it "две три" in Russian?

    Z

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    сегодня я (received)только одно письмо от брата, но завтра я, наверно, (will receive) 2-3 письма от своих друзей.
    Is the first получил and the second буду получать?
    I'm pretty sure you should use the perfective future (я получу) even though there more than one letter will be received -- after all, you expect that several letters will be delivered simultaneously, on the same day. However, I think you could say:

    В декабре я буду получать много писем от друзей.
    (In December, I will be receiving many letters from friends [i.e., over the course of the entire Christmas season].)

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    Deborski--No it's just the dialogue in the grammar book I'm working through.

    Another question: I need the choose the imperfective or perfective aspect.

    сегодня я (received)только одно письмо от брата, но завтра я, наверно, (will receive) 2-3 письма от своих друзей.
    Is the first получил and the second буду получать?

    Also how is "2-3" said in speech? We say "two to three" or "two or three" in English. Is it "две три" in Russian?

    Z
    ... я получу два-три письма.

    Note 1. "две" is for feminine nouns only. So, it is "два-три" in this case.
    Note 2. Robert is right about the aspect.

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    Thanks for your help, guys.

    Another question: Here too it's choosing imperfective or perfective aspect. Володя в школе очень хорошо учится; в университете он, наверно, всегда (will receive) хорошие отметки. Is it получить?

    How about this one: Надеюсь, что вы на это не (will take offense). Is it обидитесь?

    Is this correct? Я надеюсь, что нас на границе не задержат. In the second clause is there no subject? Is it a kind of passive voice?

    Thanks for any help,
    Z

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    Володя в школе очень хорошо учится; в университете он, наверно, всегда (will receive) хорошие отметки.

    Repetitive action, so imperfective. Future, 3rd person, singular (he). = "будет получать"

    Надеюсь, что вы на это не (will take offense). Is it обидитесь?

    ОК

    Я надеюсь, что нас на границе не задержат.

    It is called "неопределенно-личное предложение". "Задержат" has a form of past 3rd person plural, so subject "they" is implied but skipped. "I hope they won't stop us on the border." It is not mentioned specifically (not even before) who are "they".
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    Я надеюсь, что нас на границе не задержат.

    It is called "неопределенно-личное предложение". "Задержат" has a form of past 3rd person plural, so subject "they" is implied but skipped. "I hope they won't stop us on the border." It is not mentioned specifically (not even before) who are "they".
    And yes, it is a kind of passive voice. Normally, Russian academic grammar school does not call it "passive voice" since there is no passive verb in it. It calls it "неопределенно-личное предложение" as it-ogo wrote. But this structure is a functional equivalent of the passive voice. It is used to "remove" the real subject from the phrase since we do not know its name. "нас не задержат" = "we will not be detained". Although grammatically it is structured differently.

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    Thank you.

    Another question: There is this sentence in the chapter, Я учусь русский язык два года. Would this apply to me, someone studying on their own, or does it imply you are a student in a formal course? In a previous chapter I understood заниматься is used with an object in the intrumental case in the sense of "studying on one's own". Я занимаюсь русским язьком два года. Which should I use for myself?

    Then there's a translation, "Next week we're flying to Moscow for three weeks". I wrote На прошлой неделе мы полетим в Москву на три недели. I'm not sure about the verb.

    Thanks,
    Z

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    Я учусь русский язык два года.
    It is wrong. Should be either "Я учу русский язык два года." or "Я учусь русскому языку два года."

    Are you doing it by yourself or not is not specified in both cases (they are the same). As well as in "Я занимаюсь русским языком два года." If you want to specify that you do it by your own, insert "самостоятельно" before a verb.

    "Next week we're flying to Moscow for three weeks". = "На прошлой следующей неделе мы полетим в Москву на три недели.
    The verb is OK.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Thanks, it-ogo

    One more question. There is a line in the dialogue that starts the chapter: Говорят, что Невский проспект--это одна из самых красивых и интересных улиц в мире. This makes me think that Невский is a soft adjective. Then there's another line: Мне очень хочется пойти погулять по Невскому проспекту. I would expect the spelling Невскему for a soft adjective. What am I missing here?

    Z

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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    Either way is right. Namely both of them. Officially the street is called "Невский проспект" but in colloquial speech people usually skip the word "проспект" and operate the rest as a "soft adjective".
    I believe the original question was why "по Невскому" is spelled with "-ому" and not "-ему" if it has "-ий" in its dictionary form.

    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    Говорят, что Невский проспект--это одна из самых красивых и интересных улиц в мире. This makes me think that Невский is a soft adjective. Then there's another line: Мне очень хочется пойти погулять по Невскому проспекту. I would expect the spelling Невскему for a soft adjective. What am I missing here?
    Yes, you are probably missing something.
    Sounds "к, г, х" do not behave the usual way regarding their hard and soft versions.

    On the one hand, you are right.

    If the dictionary form ends in "-ой" (stressed) or "-ый" (unstressed), this is a hard-stem adjective, and it has "hard" endings in all its forms:

    (Stressed vowel is red. I only mark it in the dictionary form since the stress in full adjectives is always fixed):

    прямой (straight) - прямого, прямому, прямым, о прямом; прямая - прямое - прямые etc. (I do not list all the forms here)
    острый (sharp) - острого, острому, острым, об остром; острая - острое - острые etc.

    If the dictionary form ends in "-ий" (always unstressed), this is a soft-stem adjective, and it has "soft" endings in all its forms:

    синий (blue) - синего, синему, синим, о синем; синяя - синее - синие etc.

    The absolute majority of soft-stem adjectives end in "-ний": синий, крайний, дальний, летний, зимний etc. There are lots of them.
    And there is only one soft-stem adjective which does not end in "-ний". It is "карий" ("brown", only applicable to the color of eyes).

    Theoretically, adjectives ending in "-чий", "-щий" also belong to the soft-stem group, as "горячий" (hot) or "вещий" (prophetic). But "ч" and "щ" are not contrasted (they are primordially soft). And there are also some spelling rules which apply to "ч" and "щ" (we never write "я" and "ю" after them, "а" and "у" are written instead): горячий, горячее, горячие - but горячая, горячую; вещий, вещее, вещие - but вещая, вещую. So, "ч" and "щ" are somewhat a special case.

    No other soft-stem adjectives exists (we do not have any adjectives which end in "-бий, -вий, -дий, -зий, -лий etc. ...").
    Note: лисий "(related to) fox", коровий "(related to) cow" and other similar cases are not true adjectives. They are so-called possessive adjectives, and they have their own declension type which does not match the common declension pattern of true adjectives. So, we do not consider them here.

    On the one hand, this is not the case when the final stem consonant is one of "к, г, х" sounds.

    Most of the Russian consonants exist in two varieties: hard and soft (palatalized). They can be contrasted in virtually any position: before a vowel (мал - мял, ров - рёв, лук - люк, был - бил), before a consonant (полка - полька, горка - горько) and word-finally (вес - весь, кров - кровь, угол - уголь, стан - стань). But all those consonants are always soft before [е]: лес, вес, степь, река etc. Syllables like "мэ, тэ, дэ" etc. never occur in Russian native words, there are only a few loanwords which have them.

    The sounds "к, г, х" also exist in hard and soft varieties. But they are never opposed! Those three consonants are somewhat "special": their hardness or softness is easily predicted, and it is just defined by the sound which comes after.
    Note. As it is a matter of phonetics, I will use phonetic representations of Russian vowels below.
    Russian only has 5 vowel phonems ("basic" vowels or "underlying" vowels). They are [a], [e], [ i ], [o], [u]. But in writing each of them can be represented by two different letters depending on the preceding consonant ("а, э, ы, о, у" indicate the preceding consonant is hard, and "я, е, и, ё, ю" indicate the preceding consonant is soft).
    1. The sounds "к, г, х" are always hard word-finally: бык, друг, вздох - there is no Russian word which ends in "кь, гь, хь".
    2. They are always hard before another consonant: окно, игла, пихта. No Russian word ever contains "кь, гь, хь" combinations!
    3. They are always hard before vowels [a], [o], [u]: карта, кот, куб, галька, год, губа, хата, хобот, хуже. The combinations "кя, гя, хя, кё, гё, хё, кю, гю, хю" are impossible in native Russian words. Although they can sometimes happen in some loan words, but it is a very rare case. An example of such a word is "маникюр" (manicure). Other examples are Гюльчатай (oriental women's name), Кёльн (Köln - a city in Germany), Гёте (Goethe - a German philosopher) etc.
    4. However, those three consonants are always soft before vowels [i] and [e]: кит, пакет, гиря, Сергей, хитрый, хек. The combinations "кы, гы, хы, кэ, гэ, хэ" are impossible in native Russian words. Some foreign proper names can contain them like Кыргызстан (Kyrgyzstan) which is more commonly known in Russia as Киргизия (this example demonstrates that pronouncing "ки" and "ги" is much more natural for Russians than alien "кы" and "гы").

    To sum it up, the rule is: "к, г, х" are always palatalized before [i] and [e] (represented as "ки, ги, хи" and "ке, ге, хе" in spelling). And they always stay hard in any other position.

    Now, how it affects the adjectives whose final stem consonant is "к", "г" or "х".
    If the stress is on the ending, then we have a dictionary form which ends in "-кой", "-гой" or "-хой".
    такой (such) - такого, такому, таким, о таком; такая - такое - такие etc.
    другой (other, different) - другого, другому, другим, о другом; другая - другое - другие etc.
    плохой (bad) - плохого, плохому, плохим, о плохом; плохая - плохое - плохие etc.

    Note that the ending is "hard" if it contains [a], [o], [u] (такой, другой, плохой; такая, другая, плохая; такую, другую, плохую) but it "automatically" becomes "soft" if it contains [i] (таким, другим, плохим) - this is one of basic phonetic principles in Russian.

    If the stress is on the ending, then we have a dictionary form which ends in "-кий", "-гий" or "-хий".
    горький (bitter) - горького, горькому, горьким, о горьком; горькая - горькое - горькие etc.
    строгий (strict) - строгого, строгому, строгим, о строгом; строгая - строгое - строгие etc.
    тихий (quiet, silent) - тихого, тихому, тихим, о тихом; тихая - тихое - тихие etc.

    Note that the same principle applies: hard endings with [a], [o], [u] and soft endings with [i]. (Adjectives do not have endings with [e], so I do not mention it here).

    And it does not only work with adjectives!

    It applies to nouns, verbs and any other words which contain "к, г, х". This is a general pronunciation principle.

    Check some examples with nouns:
    губа "lip" (sg) - губы (pl); корова "cow" (sg) - коровы (pl); коза "she-goat" (sg) - козы (pl) - hard stem;
    пуля "bullet" (sg) - пули (pl); баня "bath-house" (sg) - бани (pl); буря "storm" (sg) - бури (pl) - soft stem;
    but:
    рука "hand, arm" (sg) - руки (pl); нога "foot, leg" (sg) - ноги (pl), блоха "flea" (sg) - блохи (pl).
    You can call it "mixed" stem if you like But the reason for it is the phonetic principle which dictates when "к, г, х" are hard and when they are soft.

    There is only one exception in Russian!

    Finally, we do have an exception. It is the verb "ткать" (to weave). Examine its forms:

    я тку, ты ткёшь, он ткёт, мы ткём, вы ткёте, они ткут.
    The forms "ткёшь, ткёт, ткём, ткёте" contain a soft "к" followed by [o]: кё, which does not exist in any other word in standard literary Russian.

    And the verbal adjective is "ткя" (while weaving). It contains a soft "к" followed by [а]: кя. It does not exist in any other word in standard literary Russian either.
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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман View Post
    I believe the original question was why "по Невскому" is spelled with "-ому" and not "-ему" if it has "-ий" in its dictionary form.
    Ah, yes. removed.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Bob,

    My God, what a response! Thank you!

    A couple more translation problems:
    Well, here I am in Moscow. I'd like to write a letter home, but I don't know where to begin.
    Ну, вот я и в Москве. Я хотел бы написать письмо домой но не знаю, где начаться. Not sure about imperfective/perfective here.

    --Did you notice that that tourist had a Bible in his suitcase?
    --Yes, I did, but I want only provocative books.
    --Вы не заметили, что у этого туриста выла Библия в чемодане?
    --Да, заметил, но я хочу только провокационные книги. Again imperfective/perfective isn't clear to me.

    Thanks again,
    Z

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorro View Post
    Well, here I am in Moscow. I'd like to write a letter home, but I don't know where to begin.
    Ну, вот я и в Москве. Я хотел бы написать письмо домой но не знаю, где начаться. Not sure about imperfective/perfective here.
    Ну, вот я и в Москве. - OK!
    Я хотел бы написать письмо домой, но не знаю, с чего начать.

    Aspects are OK. "Хотел бы написать" is correct. "Не знаю, с чего начать" and "не знаю, с чего начинать" are both possible. The former sounds more spontaneous (perfective "начать"), and the latter implies some "long thinking" (imperfective "начинать").

    But there are 3 mistakes:
    - always put a comma before "но",
    - we do not say "где начинать", we say "с чего начинать" (from what to begin). "Где начинать" sounds as if you do not know WHERE to start physically (in your room, or on a bench in the park).
    - "начаться" does not work here. It is a reflexive verb. It is only used when something starts by itself: "фильм начался", "началась зима", "началась война". A person cannot "начаться", he can only "начать" something.

    --Did you notice that that tourist had a Bible in his suitcase?
    --Yes, I did, but I want only provocative books.
    --Вы не заметили, что у этого туриста выла Библия в чемодане?
    --Да, заметил, но я хочу только провокационные книги. Again imperfective/perfective isn't clear to me.
    --Вы не заметили, что у этого туриста была Библия в чемодане? - Aspects are OK.
    --Да, заметил, но я хочу только провокационные книги. - (!) What do you mean by "провокационные книги"? The sentence sounds strange. "Хочу провокационные книги" hardly makes any sense.
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    Unfortunately, I've just found a copy-paste mistake:

    Quote Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман View Post
    If the stress is on the ending, then we have a dictionary form which ends in "-кой", "-гой" or "-хой".
    This part is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман View Post
    If the stress is on the ending, then we have a dictionary form which ends in "-кий", "-гий" or "-хий".
    It's a mistake. Should read as

    If the stress is not on the ending, then we have a dictionary form which ends in "-кий", "-гий" or "-хий".

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