Thread: Chapter 19 questions

I'm puzzling over this exercise. I understand the directions but the example given doesn't make sense to me. These are the directions: Составьте предложения в настоящем времени, прошедшем и будущем.

This is the example:
открывать/открыть глаза, вставать/встать, умываться/умыться, (по)завтракать и уходить/уйти на работу

Настоящее время: Я открываю глаза, встаю, моюсь, завтракаю и ухожу на работу.

Since this is the present tense, don't all the verbs have to be in the imperfective aspect? Why is умываться/умыться not only in the perfective, but the verb itself changes? Could this be a mistake in the text? I would think it would have to be умываюсь.

Thanks,
Z

Verbs мыться (to wash the whole body) and умываться (to wash the face) are different and both imperfective.

imperfective - perfective:
мыться - помыться
умываться - умыться

Here is the way of verb formation:

Root + ть(ся)= imperfective
Prefix + root + ть(ся) = perfective
Prefix + root + suffix ва + ть(ся) = again imperfective

There are many prefixes with specific meanings and to make imperfective couple to a specific perfective verb, suffix ва is used.

Thanks, it-ogo,

I see now that both мыться and умываться are imperfective. But why would the verb itself change from the cue to the response when none of the other verbs do? Wouldn't умываюсь make more sense, given the directions?

Z

Err... I didn't get your question.

They are different verbs, not the same (though of the same origin).

If you just wash your face it is "умываться". If you take shower or bath it is "мыться".

Edit: Ah, got it. In your example was given "умываться" as a task and "мыться" as the correct answer. Then it is an error. Sometimes native speakers can use "мыться" as a synonymous of "умываться," but it should not be in textbook exercises.

Hello, Zorro,
From what I perceive, the purpose of your exercise is : 1) for students of Russian to remember that only the imprefective forms are used in the Present tense, while both imperfective and perfective are used in the Past and in the Present, -- and you already know it,
And 2) for you to recognize which ones are the imperfective, either by their prefizes or by their suffixes.

You are right, since the choice you are offered is between "умываться" and "умыться", then the example should have been, "я открываю глаза (which is somewhat artificial, we would say, "просыпаюсь"), встаю, УМЫВАЮСЬ....."

Possibly, neither the author of the textbook, nor the editor re attentive enough to notice a discrepancy between the task and the example. You noticed, and it means you are learning well! Congrats!

Thanks it-ogo and Yulia,

This is a simple question on the same excercise. When you have a series of verbs and they are in the future imperfective, can you omit the auxiliary verb after using it once? For example: Я буду открывать глаза, вставать, умываться, завтракать и идти на работу. Do you need to repeat буду or not? Also, does this sentence make sense in Russian? In English would it be "I will be opening my eyes, will be getting up..."? It sounds a little weird.

Z

"Я открою глаза, встану, умоюсь, позавтракаю и пойду на работу".

In general, there is no need to repeat the auxiliary verb.

Originally Posted by zorro

Thanks it-ogo and Yulia,

This is a simple question on the same excercise. When you have a series of verbs and they are in the future imperfective, can you omit the auxiliary verb after using it once? For example: Я буду открывать глаза, вставать, умываться, завтракать и идти на работу. Do you need to repeat буду or not? Also, does this sentence make sense in Russian? In English would it be "I will be opening my eyes, will be getting up..."? It sounds a little weird.

Z

You can skip буду using it once. It is OK.

This sentence makes sense if you refer to repeating action in the future:
Каждый день я буду открывать глаза, вставать, умываться, завтракать и идти на работу.

If it is one-time action, you should use perfective:
Завтра я открою глаза, встану, умоюсь, позавтракаю и пойду на работу.

Thanks for your help.

Another question: There's this exchange in an exercise--
--Я уеду в 4 часов.
--А когда вы приедете?
--Я приеду часов в 11.

What does часов в 11 mean? I've never seen it before.

Also is this correct?: Они ходили с твоим другом Саша. Or should it be Сашем?

And a translation question:

What kind of sandwich do you want?
Do you have cheese?
Yes, we have both cheese and meat.
Then give me a cheese sandwich and borsch with sour cream.

Какой бутерброд вы хотите?
У вас есть сыру?
Есть, у нас и сыру и мяса.
Тогда дайте мне бутерброд с сыром и борщ с сметаной.

Should I be using the genetive of сыр and мясо in the second and third lines?

Thanks,
Z

--Я уеду в 4 часа.
--А когда вы приедете?
--Я приеду часов в 11.

What does часов в 11 mean? - It means at about 11 o'clock. Approximately.

Они ходили с твоим другом Сашей.


Какой бутерброд вы хотите?
У вас есть сыр_?
Да, у нас есть и сыр_, и мясо. (This is accusative)
Тогда дайте мне бутерброд с сыром и борщ со сметаной.

Originally Posted by wanja;245134У вас есть сыр[COLOR=#ff0000

_[/COLOR]?
Да, у нас есть и сыр_, и мясо. (This is accusative)

No, it is nominative: У нас есть сыр, мясо и сметана. (The accusative would be "сметану" which is definitely not correct).

Actualy, something one possesses is gramatically the subject of the sentence:
У меня есть сыр. = Literally [Cheese exists at my possession].

У вас есть сыру?

[Oops -- deleted because my advice was bad -- thanks, guys!]

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

1. У вас есть сыр? (nominative) -- "Do you have cheese?"
2. У вас есть сыра? (partitive genitive) -- "Do you have some cheese?"
3. У вас есть сыру? -- Same as #2, but possibly can sound more "folksy" -- "Do y'all got any cheese?"

Therefore, in У вас есть сыру и мяса?, both nouns are genitive: "Do you have some cheese and some meat?"

It's a pity, but that's not Russian actually, save for the first sentence.

1. У вас есть сыр? ОК
2. У вас есть немного сыра? (= some cheese)
3. У вас есть сыру? incorrect (even for the rednecks)

I think you are a bit confused because you mixed up negative and affirmative forms.

1. У вас нет сыр? incorrect
2. У вас нет сыра? ОК
3. У вас нет сыру? incorrect (but can be acceptable for the rednecks)

I'm sorry that I broke your theory.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

2. У вас есть сыра? (partitive genitive) -- "Do you have some cheese?"
3. У вас есть сыру? -- Same as #2, but possibly can sound more "folksy" -- "Do y'all got any cheese?"

Nope, neither genitive nor partitive is possible here.

I think you are a bit confused because you mixed up negative and affirmative forms.

I was mixing up two things, actually -- (1) genitive after negation and (2) partitive genitive after verbs expressing consumption (съесть, выпить) or nouns expressing quantity (like стакан, горсточка, ложка).

I mean, wouldn't it be possible to say "Она добавила горсточку сахару", "She added a small handful of sugar"? Or would сахара be preferred there?

And I'm pretty sure that "я выпил чая" and "я выпил чаю" are both okay (with a partitive meaning that's different from "я выпил чай").

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

"Она добавила горсточку сахару", "She added a small handful of sugar"? Or would сахара be preferred there?

And I'm pretty sure that "я выпил чая" and "я выпил чаю" are both okay (with a partitive meaning that's different from "я выпил чай").

There's no need to use partitive genitive there, because the word горсточку already suggest that you use a part of something and not the whole thing.
However, if you say just --- она добавила сахару --- it would be just fine.

What about чай thing I'd personally say я выпил чай or я выпил чаю, the second is much more preferable, at least for me.

In substance, partitive genetive is quite an interesting phenomenon. For example, here are the two sentences which mean absolutely different thing:

Он вылил (poured out) чай из стакана and он вылил (poured out) чаю из стакана.

I think you Throbert can understand both of them properly

Thanks for the help.

Another quick translation question:

We have to hurry or we'll be late for the concert.
Нам надо спешить но мы опаздаем на концерт. Is the first verb imperfective and the second perfective? Is there a rule that you use an imperfective infinitive after надо?

Thorbert--no there are no answers in the book. I'm muddling through with your help.

Z

Нам надо спешить или мы опоздаем на концерт. Нo usually means but, not ever or.

спешить is imperfective.
опоздаем is in the Future Tense so it automatically means that it's perfective.

There is no rule that you need to use imperfective after надо, in fact you could use the perfective form of to hurry which is поспешить:
Нам надо поспешить, а не то мы опоздаем. And this would mean quite the same thing, in fact this is the same thing.

Other example:
I need to leave:
Мне нужно идти - Мне нужно уйти.


But make no mistake, using imperfective or perfective after надо is not always interchangable.

I'm almost done with this chapter but have a couple more questions.

Prepositions governing the instrumental case are covered. I want to make sure of the pronunciation of some of them. Would над, перед, под all be pronounced with a final /t/ but as a /d/ before another word, as in над этим диваном, под столом, перед лекцией?

Can someone help on this translation?
--Try (do your best) to do this well.
--All right, I will

--Старайся это хорошо сделать. (should this be сделать or делать?)
--Ладно. Я стараюсь. (perfective here?)

Thanks,
Z