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Thread: Another short paragraph; where to use свой, etc

  1. #1
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    Another short paragraph; where to use свой, etc

    Лифт вибрировал к остановкой на шестом этаже, и я достал в кармане для ключей, чтобы поискать ключ инженера для доступ на запретный этаж сверх, и свой аппарат. Был шум, будто кто-то кашлянул за мной. Я не обратил внимания, и продолжал шарить в кармане для подходящого ключа.

    The lift juddered to a halt at the sixth storey, and I reached into my pocket to fetch the master key to gain access to the lift house (restricted floor, 'with it's machinery'?) above. There was a sound like someone clearing (or 'as if someone cleared') their throat behind me. I ignored it, and carried on fumbling (in my pocket) for the correct key.

    '...сверх, и свой аппарат.'
    свой not in same clause as этаж, so is свой acceptable here?
    'ключ инженера' No idea of Russian for 'master key'...
    'подходящого ...' doesnt really mean 'correct', but I'm not sure what would in this context.

    Had to edit a bit after posting, sorry. Too many bits missing.

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    Лифт [дополз] до шестого этажа и я полез в карман, чтобы достать универсальный ключ, [необходимый] чтобы попасть в лифтовую надстройку (этаж "с его механизмом") наверху. Раздался звук, как будто кто-то позади меня откашлялся (прочистил горло). Я не обратил на это внимания и продолжал нашаривать в камане нужный ключ.
    Налево пойдёшь - коня потеряешь, направо пойдёшь - сам голову сложишь.
    Прямой путь не предлагать!

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    Почтенный гражданин xXHoax's Avatar
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    I think it's okay to use правильный or подходящий, not sure.
    Here's how that first bit reads to me:


    я достал из кармана ключи, чтобы искать А и Б

    А) ключ инженера для доступ на запретный этаж кверху/наверх [Idunno which, but not сверх; that one is a preposition],
    Б) свой аппарат

    So one half of the meaning of the sentence is:

    я достал из кармана ключи, чтобы искать свой аппарат
    I pulled the keys out of my pocket, to look for my device

    свой feels like it is going back to Я.
    If you meant the этаж's device I definitely think его аппарат.

    I'd flip the order of за мной and кашлянул. [MasterRussian has a page on "Theme and Rheme" discussing word order effects, Lesson on Russian Sentence Structure ]

    In my experience Russian doesn't use для as an arm for verbs, so to speak; whereas English uses "for" after many verbs, not only does Russian split "for" into a few different variations, it doesn't use them as object facilitators nearly the same. Most straightforward example is "to wait for"
    ждать + genitive , no preposition "for" needed
    искать + accusative [the sentence you used поискать and для is a different, and okay in this respect]

    It's common to see prepositions like к, на, над, в, об used in conjunction with verbs to direct their meaning, but для seems to be in a generally different camp.

    The part I'm questioning is "шарить для чего-либо". I don't know enough about the verb шарить to tell you how it IS supposed to used. Without any other suggestion, I'd just assume шарить + accusative is correct.

    Он оттолкнул девочку и начал ловко шарить в карманах у солдата.

    ...

    по карманам is a common phrase added to the verb... Meaning basically "To rummage around inside something"

    Зачем ты шаришь по моим сумкам?

    ...

    I can't find a phrase that includes an object of шарить.

    обшарить что-либо means "to rummage through something", without any preposition...

    Бородатый с беспокойством поднялся, обшарил глазами толпу.

    Yeah, so I can't find and "to rummage after something". Для seems bad, not really what that version of "for" does. I guess, on a limb here, you might be able to say
    шарить за что-либо to say "rummage for something"

    Edit: Nevermind. Post above this explains
    Anywho, I just found https://wikivox.ru/предложения-со-словом/ , which seems to be a fantastic source for understanding a word's grammatical ports, because it gives you a bunch of native full sentence examples.

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    я достал в кармане для ключей, чтобы поискать ключ инженера для доступ на запретный этаж сверх, и свой аппарат.
    'я достал из кармана ключи, чтобы искать А и Б'

    Is this partly due to the comma after 'сверх'?
    If it was written without a comma after сверх (which should be наверху anyway) would it be slightly more intelligible?
    'я достал в кармане для ключей, чтобы поискать ключ инженера для доступ на запретный этаж наверху и свой аппарат.'
    Its still a clumsy sentence though, if I was going to write it again I'd start from scratch.


    Лифт [дополз] до шестого этажа:-
    It does say roughly what I wanted it to, but I wanted to emphasise the idea of it juddering as it stopped. I think I shouldnt have put a comma after my 'этаже' either...

    полез в карман:- is this an idiomatic use of полезть?

    чтобы достать универсальный ключ:- makes more sense than mine.

    попасть:- yes, a less clumsy way to say it.

    лифтовая надстройка:- I looked on wikipedia.ru to get 'помещения машинного лифт', лифтовая надстройка sounds more like something someone would actually say!

    наверху:- For some reason I cant seem to remember that this is (effectively) locative, and has 'у' on the end like 'саду', etc (different part of speech, of course.)

    звук:- is there a way for me to know when to use звук, and when to use 'шум'?

    Я не обратил на это внимания:- apparently needed more information than we would use here in English.

    нашаривать/нашарить:- That makes sense, but:-

    '... я охнула и стала шарить вокруг себя в поисках меча.'
    'I gasped and started to fumble around myself in search of my sword'

    (from https://www.lingvolive.com/en-us/translate/ru-en/шарить; like wikivox.ru, but with translations beside each sentence; but unlike wikivox, you have to be specific about which form of a word you search for.)

    It seems one can 'шарить в поисках' something, although нашарить is simpler, if I can remember it.

    This explains 'for' in Russian succinctly, although for some reason, it's not sinking in for me.
    Saying 'for' in Russian

    What I really need to do, I think, is to sit and look at all this, and get an idea of what things I don't use properly, and prioritise learning those. Not sure how yet.

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    Почтенный гражданин xXHoax's Avatar
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    шум - is like noise in the broader fuzzy, perhaps elongated sense. Like the "noise" in "white noise", but not really any single sound.
    звук - is a sound, more of an isolated event. In English we refer to this with "a noise" sometimes, or "a sound"

    If you somehow drew 2 conceptual venn diagrams over each other representing English sound vs noise and Russian звук vs шум [so four circles], NO circle would quite line up with any other one.

    Шарить в поиске/поисках + genitive -- that's a brilliant way, yeah. "To rummage in search of something"

    That is a great site!

    Learning "for" is a fairly insanely complex topic, definitely not something one can grasp after just one day.

    Seeing examples definitely straightens things out over time.

    они́ гото́вятся к экза́мену‎ ; preparing for the exam

    Приготовьтесь к битве - prepare yourselves for battle

    Yup yup, у on наверху is a representation of locative, basically modern prepositional, distinguishing against наверх, which would be accusative верх.

    In perfect theory, commas aren't used to distinguish concepts, just to mark barriers. [in reality, well, things happen]
    Anyway, the comma doesn't affect свой's destination, it aligns with the subject regardless of distance and whatnot. этаж is brought up as something other than the subject of the sentence, so to refer to its possessions you'd use его ____.

    'я достал в кармане для ключей, чтобы поискать ключ инженера для доступ на запретный этаж наверху и свой аппарат.

    That's свой's job, it is irrevocably linked back to the subject, and intentionally marks a distinction if его is used instead.

    Его could technically refer to the "engineer's" or the "floor's", context governs here, so a total rephrasing of the sentence would yield clearer boundaries for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grafrich View Post

    Лифт [дополз] до шестого этажа:-
    It does say roughly what I wanted it to, but I wanted to emphasise the idea of it juddering as it stopped.
    You can use "дотрясся" then.

    Quote Originally Posted by grafrich View Post
    полез в карман:- is this an idiomatic use of полезть?
    Gramota.ru:
    3. Разговорное. Проникать, забираться рукой внутрь чего-л. Л. в шкаф за книгой. Л. в почтовый ящик. Л. в карман за деньгами. Л. в сумку за покупкой.

    Quote Originally Posted by grafrich View Post
    звук:- is there a way for me to know when to use звук, and when to use 'шум'?
    They both fit the context. Звук is a general word for any sound. Шум is meaningless or disturbing sound (that is noise). I think these pairs of words are quite similar.
    Налево пойдёшь - коня потеряешь, направо пойдёшь - сам голову сложишь.
    Прямой путь не предлагать!

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    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Полуношник
    You can use "дотрясся" then.
    That'd imlpy that the lift was juddering all its way up to the six floor, not that it juddered when it stopped there.

    Шум is either a meaningless sound as was noted above or a sound you can't identify, like where it's coming from or what's its nature. But шум is mostly used to describe noise coming from a multitude of different sounds. E.g. Many people talking at once.
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

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    Point taken about 'свой', I was 'clutching at straws' there; trying to salvage something from a rather poorly constructed sentence!
    I think шум is kind of background noise, then. And звук is just a bit more general.
    What verb is 'дотрясся' from? I can't find it in dictionaries.
    полез в карман:- If a dictionary says 'Разговорное' or 'Разг', I guess that means it is an informal, spoken use of the word, rather than idiomatic as such?

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    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    What verb is 'дотрясся' from? I can't find it in dictionaries.
    трястись - to shake.
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

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    so трястись and дотрястись are the same, but the second one means 'to shake until', or 'shake repeatedly'?

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    трястись means to shake repeatedly
    дотрястись means to get somewhere while shaking

    You can see this до + main verb construction quite often.

    добежать
    доплыть
    дойти
    доехать

    etc.
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

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    OK, thanks.

  13. #13
    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    лезть в карман за ключом - it is a normal thing
    лезть в карман за словом - an idiom
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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