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Thread: пока не constructions

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    Завсегдатай sperk's Avatar
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    пока не constructions

    does the пока не construction mean "until"? The не throws me off because it seems to literally say "until not" but the meaning seems to be "until."

    А вот ты поработай своей головой, пока не распухнет, пока пол с потолком не сольётся! И когда жужжать уже нечем, вот тут и ползёшь туда, где открыто.
    Кому - нары, кому - Канары.

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    Re: пока не constructions

    Quote Originally Posted by sperk
    does the пока не construction mean "until"?
    Yes.
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

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    Пока, strictly speaking, is translated as till. Until is translated as (до тех пор), пока не... But the difference is so subtle that I can't even explain it.

    I think the difference lays in the double negative that is common in Russian but forbidden in English. So

    А вот ты поработай своей головой, пока не распухнет, пока пол с потолком не сольётся!

    You, try to use your head until it swells, (note that there is no highlighted negative in English - it is "hidden" in the un- prefix), till the floor merges with the ceiling.
    (Note I didn't use until in the second part)

    I'm still not sure whether my translation is absolutely correct, though

    At the same time пока may be translated as while (or even during).

    Пока шел дождь, я сидел дома. - I sat at home while it was raining.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil
    Пока, strictly speaking, is translated as till.
    Но ведь sperk спрашивал именно про пока не.
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

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    And note that the aspect is always perfective/совершиный вид for both глаголы...
    Заранее благодарю всех за исправление ошибок в моём русском.

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    Почтенный гражданин
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    Здравствуйте! Меня тоже всегда мучит "пока" и "пока не".
    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он звонил мне.
    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он не звонил мне.

    =здесь оба варианта можно?в подобных случаях можно употребить "пока" вместо "пока не"??
    Всем заранее спасибо и с Рождеством!
    Correct my mistakes in russian and in english,please! Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Бармалей
    And note that the aspect is always perfective/совершеный вид for both глаголы...
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramita
    Здравствуйте! Меня тоже всегда мучит "пока" и "пока не".
    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он звонил мне.
    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он не позвонил мне.

    =здесь оба варианта можно?
    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он звонил мне. - это значит, что он тебе звонил, телефон звонил, а ты в это время смотрел телевизор и не брал трубку.

    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он не позвонил мне. (совершенный вид глагола!)
    Это значит, что ты смотрел телевизор, но вдруг тебе позвонил кто-то (он), и ты сразу перестал смотреть телевизор, снял трубку и стал говорить по телефону. Это значит, что ты смотрел телевизор ДО ТОГО МОМЕНТА, когда случился звонок, а потом прекратил смотреть.

    в подобных случаях можно употребить "пока" вместо "пока не"??
    Я думаю, что "пока" нельзя заменять на "пока не", потому что иначе получаются предложения с разным смыслом.
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramita
    Здравствуйте! Меня тоже всегда мучит "пока" и "пока не".
    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он звонил мне.
    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он не звонил мне.

    =здесь оба варианта можно?в подобных случаях можно употребить "пока" вместо "пока не"??
    Всем заранее спасибо и с Рождеством!
    You can use both but they have opposite meanings

    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он звонил мне. -
    I have been watching TV while he called me. (The telephone rang but I didn't pick it up)

    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он не звонил мне.
    I have been watching TV until he called me. (I was watching TV because he didn't call)
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    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil
    You can use both but they have opposite meanings

    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он звонил мне. -
    I have been watching TV while he called me. (The telephone rang but I didn't pick it up)

    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он не звонил мне.
    I have been watching TV until he called me. (I was watching TV because he didn't call)

    "Я смотрел телевизор, пока он звонил мне". - Мне почему-то это не по-русски звучит.
    I have been watching TV while he called me. - Я бы перевела так: Я смотрел телевизор в то время, когда он мне звонил.

    "Я смотрел телевизор, пока он не звонил мне". - Это тоже по-моему странно звучит.
    I have been watching TV until he called me. - Я бы перевела: Я смотрел телевизор, пока он мне не позвонил (до того момента, когда он мне позвонил).
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada
    "Я смотрел телевизор, пока он звонил мне". - Мне почему-то это не по-русски звучит.

    "Я смотрел телевизор, пока он не звонил мне". - Это тоже по-моему странно звучит.
    +1
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil
    Quote Originally Posted by paramita
    Здравствуйте! Меня тоже всегда мучит "пока" и "пока не".
    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он звонил мне.
    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он не звонил мне.

    =здесь оба варианта можно?в подобных случаях можно употребить "пока" вместо "пока не"??
    Всем заранее спасибо и с Рождеством!
    You can use both but they have opposite meanings

    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он звонил мне. -
    I have been watching TV while he called me. (The telephone rang but I didn't pick it up)

    Я смотрел телевизор, пока он не звонил мне.
    I have been watching TV until he called me. (I was watching TV because he didn't call)
    Hm... sounds strange in English...those sentences of yours about the TV and phone call. The first one in particular.
    "A classic is something that everybody wants to have read and nobody wants to read"
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReDSanchous
    Hm... sounds strange in English...those sentences of yours about the TV and phone call. The first one in particular.
    They sound strange in Russian too. I think that Ramil just did the direct translation to show this strangeness.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77
    Quote Originally Posted by ReDSanchous
    Hm... sounds strange in English...those sentences of yours about the TV and phone call. The first one in particular.
    They sound strange in Russian too. I think that Ramil just did the direct translation to show this strangeness.
    I get this but in Russian the sentences are technically ok. More or less ok. In English, however, Ramil's first sentence not only shows the strangeness but may also cause confusion among Russian learners.
    "A classic is something that everybody wants to have read and nobody wants to read"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77
    I think that Ramil just did the direct translation to show this strangeness.
    А paramita по-русски лучше понимает, чем по-английски :P
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Оля
    А paramita по-русски лучше понимает, чем по-английски :P
    А, ну тогда, конечно, лучше объяснить по-русски.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReDSanchous
    I get this but in Russian the sentences are technically ok. More or less ok. In English, however, Ramil's first sentence not only shows the strangeness but may also cause confusion among Russian learners.
    Although Ramil's English is hundred times better than mine, for instance, he still can do mistakes, don't he? Errare humanum est!
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77
    Quote Originally Posted by ReDSanchous
    I get this but in Russian the sentences are technically ok. More or less ok. In English, however, Ramil's first sentence not only shows the strangeness but may also cause confusion among Russian learners.
    Although Ramil's English is hundred times better than mine, for instance, he still can do mistakes, don't he? Errare humanum est!
    Well, I'm not trying to point out his mistakes. It's not my prerogative and I don't think he'd aprrove of that. The thing is we don't need to confuse Russian learners
    "A classic is something that everybody wants to have read and nobody wants to read"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77
    Quote Originally Posted by ReDSanchous
    I get this but in Russian the sentences are technically ok. More or less ok. In English, however, Ramil's first sentence not only shows the strangeness but may also cause confusion among Russian learners.
    Although Ramil's English is hundred times better than mine, for instance, he still can do mistakes, don't he? Errare humanum est!
    Don't ever make my English an example!
    In fact, I do many mistakes, especially when I'm just expressing myself and not carefully translating some paid translation order.
    Send me a PM if you need me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil
    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77
    Quote Originally Posted by ReDSanchous
    I get this but in Russian the sentences are technically ok. More or less ok. In English, however, Ramil's first sentence not only shows the strangeness but may also cause confusion among Russian learners.
    Although Ramil's English is hundred times better than mine, for instance, he still can do mistakes, don't he? Errare humanum est!
    Don't ever make my English an example!
    In fact, I do many mistakes, especially when I'm just expressing myself and not carefully translating some paid translation order.
    When you are expressing yourself, it is essential that others can understand what you're saying. I think this only applies to conversation because you have got scarcely any time to think of a well-structured sentence and without any mistakes at that in converstaion!

    Are you a translator?
    "A classic is something that everybody wants to have read and nobody wants to read"
    Mark Twain
    American author/essayist (1835-1910)
    WHSmith

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