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Thread: Откуда берётся злоба?

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    Откуда берётся злоба?

    Нас ждет бесконечная зима. Откуда берется злоба? Мне не достучаться до тебя, хоть ты до меня попробуй.
    - Картины Жизни

    Один моего любимых песен! Пока я понимаю значение этих текстов, не понимаю почему. "Берется" значит "take/undertake" по-английский, а не "come."

    Basically, I can't understand why "берется" means what it does in this context.
    Заранее спасибо!)

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    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Where is it coming from?
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada View Post
    Where is it coming from?
    I think so, but why? Doesn't браться mean "to take?" Maybe it's just that I don't have a Russian mindset, but to me it's like saying "Where is all the hate taken from?" It's just kind of odd. Also, what other situations would браться signify "come?"

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    The verb браться has several meanings. One of them (not main) means появляться, возникать. It's colloquial expression, which is not used in literature (usually). By the way, the verb взяться could be used same.

    Примеры:
    1) Откуда берутся дети? = Как появляются дети?
    2) Откуда он, чёрт возьми, взялся? = Как он здесь, чёрт возьми, очутился?
    3) Откуда у астронавта на Марсе возьмётся iPhone? = Как у астронавта на Марсе появится iPhone?
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    Интересно. Смогу я сказать "Откуда возьмется злоба?" вместо и было бы правильно? У него будет такие же значение?

    Снова спасибо!))

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    My sense as a non-native is that either of these might be better, to emphasize the existence of злоба in the here-and-now:

    "Откуда берётся злоба?" (present tense: "Where does malice come from?")
    "Откуда взялась злоба?" (past perfect: "Where did/has malice come from?")

    The form you used suggests to me "Where might it come from in the future?"

    P.S. And note that злоба is closer to "spitefulness" or "malice directed against another person"; if you mean "Evil" in a more general sense, like "the Dark Side of the Force," зло might be better.
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    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexei90 View Post
    Интересно. Смогу я сказать "Откуда возьмётся злоба?" вместо и было бы правильно? У него будет такие же значение?

    Снова спасибо!))
    Yes, it could be simple Future (from where spitefulness will take itself?),

    or as Throbert said, part of a conditional sentence:
    Откуда возьмётся иммунитет, если постоянно пить антибиотики?
    (excuse my English) How can you expect to have a good immunity while drinking antibiotics on a regular basis?
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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    Doesn't браться mean "to take?"
    "Where is all the hate taken from?" It's just kind of odd.
    P.S.
    Yes and I do not see it as odd. "...is taken from..." is very same as "...come from...". This reflexive form may not contain subject (he who takes).
    I think something similar exists in english "They say ...". Russian-speaking mind immidiately asks "who are they?". Russian form of this sentence is something like "it is said".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    My sense as a non-native is that either of these might be better, to emphasize the existence of злоба in the here-and-now:

    "Откуда берётся злоба?" (present tense: "Where does malice come from?")
    "Откуда взялась злоба?" (past perfect: "Where did/has malice come from?")

    The form you used suggests to me "Where might it come from in the future?"

    P.S. And note that злоба is closer to "spitefulness" or "malice directed against another person"; if you mean "Evil" in a more general sense, like "the Dark Side of the Force," зло might be better.
    Yes, берется was used in the song lyrics because the singer is referring to the present. I translate it as "hate" because it makes more sense to me that way. "Malice" isn't a commonly used word. Reflexive verbs always confused me. I was taught (by myself) that reflexive verbs are used when the subject is referring to itself, yet I still fail to use them properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxmixiv View Post
    Yes, it could be simple Future (from where spitefulness will take itself?),

    or as Throbert said, part of a conditional sentence:
    Откуда возьмётся иммунитет, если постоянно пить антибиотики?
    (excuse my English) How can you expect to have a good immunity while drinking antibiotics on a regular basis?
    Ah, I see. Since the translation includes "How", "expect", "to have", "good", yet those words are nowhere to be found in the original sentence, it's extremely confusing. Having that said, it most certainly make sense, but more in literal terms.

    So essentially we can use this phrase "Откуда возьмется что-либо..." to ask where something originates from. The verb just reinforces the root meaning of "Откуда." If I recall correctly, if you want to ask someone where they're from, you just say "Откуда вы?" and that's enough. Literally "From where are you?" If you were to add the verb here, would it just be wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex80 View Post
    P.S.
    Yes and I do not see it as odd. "...is taken from..." is very same as "...come from...". This reflexive form may not contain subject (he who takes).
    I think something similar exists in english "They say ...". Russian-speaking mind immidiately asks "who are they?". Russian form of this sentence is something like "it is said".
    That's true, but no one would say it that way in English, so it sounds odd to me. I thought "They say" was simply "Говорят." We can say "It is said" in English too. They're used almost interchangeably. They do have different tones though. "It is said" sounds like exposition. "They say" could be used more in every-day conversation.
    Я просто пытаюсь учить русский язык.

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    I thought "They say" was simply "Говорят." We can say "It is said" in English too.
    We too. And because "it is said" is reflexive it will be "Говорит-ся, что ...". Note, that, "Говорят, что ..." doesn't contain "they". There is no specific "they" here. "Они говорят" is very different sentence which implies that "they" were mentioned before.
    As I said, many reflexive form of verb works in the same way - there is no "specific subject of action".
    For example "Откуда ты взялся?" is not equal to "Откуда ты взял себя?". There is no specific "he who get you", but fate and curcumstances maybe, and... here you are.

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    if you want to ask someone where they're from, you just say "Откуда вы?" and that's enough. Literally "From where are you?" If you were to add the verb here, would it just be wrong?
    Откуда вы есть?
    is not wrong, but slightly bizarre.
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex80 View Post
    We too. And because "it is said" is reflexive it will be "Говорит-ся, что ...". Note, that, "Говорят, что ..." doesn't contain "they". There is no specific "they" here. "Они говорят" is very different sentence which implies that "they" were mentioned before.
    As I said, many reflexive form of verb works in the same way - there is no "specific subject of action".
    For example "Откуда ты взялся?" is not equal to "Откуда ты взял себя?". There is no specific "he who get you", but fate and curcumstances maybe, and... here you are.
    I thought that говорят implied "they" because it's referring to multiple things/people saying something. Like with говорю, by itself can't it just mean "I am speaking" or "I say?" The pronoun isn't required here (I thought). So, isn't it the same with говорят?

    So it's better to use "It is said" when referring to something that people often say or speculate. Like this?
    Говорится, что снежный человек последние видели в лесу близко к мою дому. (Исправите меня пожалуйста, если я не прав.)

    Quote Originally Posted by maxmixiv View Post
    Откуда вы есть?
    is not wrong, but slightly bizarre.
    Хорошо! Теперь я не это говорю как тот.) Только как "Откуда вы?"
    Я просто пытаюсь учить русский язык.

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    I thought that говорят implied "they" because it's referring to multiple things/people saying something.
    "Говорят" acts like "it is said" in multiple case and direct (non-reflexive) form. There is no "they". And it means "they say...". But "Они говорят..." means "(Bob and Todd, who was mentioned before) say..." only.
    And this is just example of "mentality of words".

    Говорится, что снежный человек последние видели в лесу близко к мою дому.
    Говорят, что снежного человека недавно видели в лесу близко к моему дому.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex80 View Post
    "Говорят" acts like "it is said" in multiple case and direct (non-reflexive) form. There is no "they". And it means "they say...". But "Они говорят..." means "(Bob and Todd, who was mentioned before) say..." only.
    And this is just example of "mentality of words".


    Говорят, что снежного человека недавно видели в лесу близко к моему дому.
    Спасибо за исправление! Однако, я не понимаю когда использовать "говорится."
    Я просто пытаюсь учить русский язык.

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    Спасибо за исправление! Однако, я не понимаю когда использовать "говорится."
    Usually in context where subject is described before. For example "В книге говорится, что ...." may be just "Говорится, что ..." if context implies already that we are talking about this book. So, "говорится" alone usually is not replacement for "Говорят" in role of "they say".
    However there is "Как говорится - ...." which contains some (usually well-known) fact. It is replacement of "Как говорят - ...". You use it then you want to point on this fact, for example, while saying proverb. "Как говорят/говорится - всяк кулик своё болото хвалит." = "As was said - every bird likes its own nest." (maybe I should use "As it is said, ..." because "It was said" more likely to be "Сказано")
    There may be cases when "говорится" is used interchangebly with "говорят" in role of "they say", but they are rare and exist somewhere between 2 cases above.
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    alexei90
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    Путаю вас…
    Please correct my English

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex80 View Post
    Usually in context where subject is described before. For example "В книге говорится, что ...." may be just "Говорится, что ..." if context implies already that we are talking about this book. So, "говорится" alone usually is not replacement for "Говорят" in role of "they say".
    However there is "Как говорится - ...." which contains some (usually well-known) fact. It is replacement of "Как говорят - ...". You use it then you want to point on this fact, for example, while saying proverb. "Как говорят/говорится - всяк кулик своё болото хвалит." = "As was said - every bird likes its own nest." (maybe I should use "As it is said, ..." because "It was said" more likely to be "Сказано")
    There may be cases when "говорится" is used interchangebly with "говорят" in role of "they say", but they are rare and exist somewhere between 2 cases above.
    Спасибо за объяснение.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soft sign View Post
    Путаю вас…
    Ахаха, я просто русский кто не мочь говорить русский язык, а он реальный русский.))
    Я просто пытаюсь учить русский язык.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex80 View Post
    However there is "Как говорится - ...." which contains some (usually well-known) fact. It is replacement of "Как говорят - ...". You use it then you want to point on this fact, for example, while saying proverb. "Как говорят/говорится - всяк кулик своё болото хвалит." = "As was said - every bird likes its own nest." (maybe I should use "As it is said, ..." because "It was said" more likely to be "Сказано")
    I would add that in English, "It's said, that..." and "They say, that..." are more or less interchangeable when quoting a traditional proverb or "scientific wisdom"-- but "they say..." sounds more natural when you're quoting gossip:

    It's said/they say that "Too many cooks spoil the broth." (~ У семи нянек дитя без глаза -- "With seven nannies, no one keeps an eye on the baby.")
    It's said/they say that birds evolved from two-legged carnivorous dinosaurs resembling a miniature T. rex.

    BUT

    They say that Tom Cruise is secretly gay! ("It's said..." -- это не ошибка, а тут звучит чем-то не идеально, ИМХО.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    (~ У семи нянек дитя без глаза -- "With seven nannies, no one keeps an eye on the baby.")
    Wow! Вы мне глаза открыли! Я всегда думал, что дитя буквально без глаза (выкололо глаз где-то, пока няньки за ним не смотрели). А оказывается, просто «без присмотра»!
    Please correct my English

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    Soft sign: I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not! The idea that a child without supervision ("без присмотра") might literally lose an eye ("терять глаза") is certainly familiar to English speakers -- я надаюсь, что все изучающие английский уже знакомы с х/ф "A Christmas Story" -- это наша пиндостанская версия "Иронии судьбы".



    But anyway, вот статья найденная Гуглом, про вышеуказанную пословицу:

    Без какого глаза дитя?

    The article gives examples of both German and English translators who weren't sure whether to interpret глаз concretely, or in the figurative sense of присмотр.
    Говорит Бегемот: "Dear citizens of MR -- please correct my Russian mistakes!"

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