Thread: "На" против "Для"

Привет.

Сегодня утром я разговаривал с клиентом и я использовал фразу:
"Я строю планы для будущего"
Конечно, он поправил меня:
"Я строю планы на будущее".
My problem is that Russians don't have a particula word for the word "for" (you also use the word "за").
My question is obvious: Is there any rule of when to use "за", "на" and "для" or I just have to memorize the thousand dialogues.

Well, I don't know if there is a rule of when you should use which word. But, what I do know, that these prepositions have different meanings. Let me explain.

Я строю планы для будущего - This sentence actually conveys that you make plans so that the future can use them and benefit from them, which makes no sense. However, if you say:
Я строю планы для него - it would work okay, because he can be the one who will use the plans and benefit from them.

Я строю планы за будущее - This sentence sounds as if the future was supposed to make those plans, but you make them instead of the future. Let's compose a correct sentence with за:
Я работаю сегодня за Тома - means that you do Tom's work today instead of Tom or, for some reason, Tom couldn't come to work today and you replaced him at his work for today.

Я строю планы на будущее - It looks okay, because, in this case, на implies moving towards something, so that means that your plans are going to go towards the future, when they have reached the future the time to use the plans comes. Another correct example with на for you:

Я иду на пляж - I'm going towards/to the beech.


I hope it helps in any way

One way I remember some differences of the general usages is that для has a meaning like " for the benefit of " So can use when has to do with for benefit of a person.

So it is for a subset of usages to translate for. It doesn't mean for as in directional or other kinds of senses of for.

на isn't used very often to mean "for" - the only example I can think of is фото на документы and it's just that the logic of the Russian is different, focusing on where the photos go ("on the documents") rather than what their purpose is ("for documents")

за is used for some specific uses of "for" - paying for something (платить за), receiving punishment for something (его посадили за убийство), substituting for someone else (like in iCake's example above), asking "who do you take me for?" (ты меня за кого принимаешь) and so on..

In general I think it makes sense to memorize most of these phrases rather than try to translate words like "for" since this word has so many different uses in English

Ie. "For example" например
"prepare for" готовиться к
"look/search for" искать
"this instrument is used for measuring temperature" - этот инструмент используется для измерения температуры

Мне кажется, что планы на будущее/ на завтра/ на отпуск/ на выходные - это сложившаяся форма. Да, надо запомнить.

There is a pattern but it is more intuitive then formal.

Yes, in Russian "X для Y" implies that X is expected to use Y actively. В and на marks a kind of passive destination or target. I am not sure about the way you can use "за" instead of "for".

Спасибо для ваших ответов (Надеюсь что я использовал "для" правильно в этом предложении).
Я нашел что в, для, за + Винительный, за + Творительный, на, о, по + Дательный и под принадлежат к Категории которая называется "Prepositions that denote purpose".
Your examples are extremely helpful. Especially, the idea of beneficiary. Однако я понял что я должен запомнить много фраз.

We say спасибо за + accusative. The rest of your Russian is good

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

Спасибо для ваших ответов

Now I see what did you mean with "за" = "for".

This meaning of "за" is "in exchange for". (Я купил танк за три рубля.)

Here the difference "за" vs "для" is in the direction of casual connection.

"X для Y (Gen)" = first X then will be Y. Y is either an activity or someone who is able to use X (in some future activity).
"X за Y (Acc)" = first was Y then X. Y was an activity or a good and X is a pay-off in exchange for Y (compare to another meaning of "за" - "behind, after").

Originally Posted by iCake

We say спасибо за + accusative. The rest of your Russian is good

Some more rules of thumb for you. (In this case "for you" is "для вас", since you are supposed to USE those rules, you NEED them, and you somewhat BENEFIT from them).

If you say "спасибо для ваших ответов" it sounds non-Russian of course, but I would like to underline what it means: it means as if your "спасибо" is needed for "our answers", as if "our answers" will use your "спасибо" in some way. That is why it sounds strange.
You can say "тетрадь для записей" (a writing-book for (making) notes), because this "тетрадь" is intended to be USED for making notes in it. One needs "тетрадь" to make notes. So, "тетрадь для записей" is OK.
You can say "книга для детей" (a book for children), since this book is intended to be used by children.
You can say "стоянка для машин" (a parking for cars), since the cars are supposed to use this parking. This parking is needed for cars. Although, you can also say just "стоянка машин" (a parking of cars), which is correct too.
You can say "ручка для письма" (a pen for writing), because this pen is required for writing, it is used to write.
You can say "тарелка для супа" (a plate for soup), since this plate is going to be used to pour some soup in it, it is needed for soup. Do not confuse it with "тарелка супа" (a plate of soup). In this case, they are different: "тарелка супа" is a plate with soup in it. "Тарелка для супа" can be an empty plate.

Now if you compare "тетрадь для записей", "книга для детей", "стоянка для машин", "ручка для письма", "тарелка для супа" etc. you will see something in common in all of them.
And compare it with "спасибо для ответов". Do you feel it does not match the pattern above?

The preposition "за" has a different meaning. One of its meanings is "in exchange of something". You give "спасибо" in exchange of our answers. So, the right way to say it is "спасибо за ваши ответы!"

If you pay for something, you give money in exchange of what you buy: "заплатить за обучение" - to pay for education.
"Он платит мне 10 долларов в день за мою работу" - He pays me 10 dollars a day for my work.
"Я хочу вас поблагодарить за вашу помощь" - I want to thank you for your help.

You can also use "за" in noun+noun combinations:
"деньги за работу" is "money for work" (money which is paid in exchange of work)
"5 рублей за билет" is "5 roubles for a ticket"
"благодарность за услугу" is "gratitude for service"

And one more example to underline the difference between "для" and "за":
"деньги за работу" is a typical expression which means "money (paid) for work", i.e. it is money in exchange of someone's work.
"деньги для работы" is a bit strange, but theoretically possible. This one means "money you need for your work to be done". Imagine, your work involves bribing some powerful people This is actually you job: you are a secret agent, and you bribe some officials, so you force them to make some "correct" decisions. Jokingly In this case, the money you need to do your secret job can be called "деньги для работы".

I've just found another funny example to illustrate the difference between "для" and "за":

Imagine the situation. I know, you are short of money, since you have been borrowed money from me constantly. One day, I see you holding a $100 bill. I ask in surprise: "Что это?" And you reply to me: "This is money for John". How would you say it in Russian?

1. Possibly, it is money you are going to pay to John for something. You did not pay him yet, but you have already reserved some money for this purpose. You say:
Это деньги для Джона.
This money is intended for John. He will benefit it. This money will not be yours any longer after you give it to John.

2. Это деньги за Джона.
Now, it means the following: in order to solve your money problem, you sold your friend John to slavery for $100, "деньги за Джона" is "money in exchange of John".

По этой причине я очень внимательны когда использую русский язык и иногда я предпочитаю не говорить по русский если даже знаю все слова.
Учить структуру русского языка очень трудно.

I just want to add the example to the "pay-off explanation": погибнуть ни за что. The death is the pay-off for nothing worthy.

По этой причине я очень внимательны (because it's plural) внимателен, когда использую русский язык и иногда я предпочитаю не говорить по русский(a typical mistake, we don't ever say по русский because it is an adjective but you have to use an adverb there, which is по-русски) по-русски, если даже знаю все слова.
Учить структуру русского языка очень трудно.

Битва за Москву

борьба за жизнь

Accusative.

"спасибо для ваших ответов"

Есть известная шутка в Интернете, из серии "как русские переводчики переводят c английского/на английский":

(Рус) Вот ответы на Ваши вопросы
(Eng) This is your questions answers

Ох, и сложная структура у русского языка, indeed!

Вы не представляете как трудно общаться с клиентам которые знают исключительно русский.
Думаю что если даже знаю много слов и использую профессиональную терминологию не могу выиграть ни их внимание ни их уважение потому что я перевожу с английского and I sound weird to them.

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

Вы не представляете как трудно общаться с клиентам которые знают исключительно русский.
Думаю что если даже знаю много слов и использую профессиональную терминологию не могу выиграть ни их внимание ни их уважение потому что я перевожу с английского and I sound weird to them.

I can understand you But I do not think it is only a problem of Russian. I have to communicate with English-speaking customers from the US, and I often feel exactly the same as you do. I know all the professional terms, I try to construct my phrases properly. But when it comes to some complex logic involved I feel them struggle to understand me. Not everything can be easily translated from one language to another one. There are lots of tricky expressions if not to count compound sentences, conditions, subjunctions, tense nuances etc. Phrasal verbs drive me crazy as well.

Originally Posted by Seraph

Битва за Москву

борьба за жизнь

Accusative.

И тоже "for", но в схему не укладывается. Да уж, чем дальше в лес, тем толще партизаны.

Here is another usage of "за" as "for". X за Y - X is an activity to obtain or to keep Y.

Вы думаете что кто-то который хочет выучить русский язык очень хорошо должен поехать и пожить в России?
Я выучил английски очень хорошо прежде чем поехать в Англию.
Однако никто может сравнить русский и английский язык потому что первый 5 times труднее.
The only beauty of the English language is phrasal verbs and the slang.