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Thread: Картавит?

  1. #1
    Завсегдатай sperk's Avatar
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    Картавит?

    Что такое картавит?

    Урусов — подпольный ходатай по делам. Картавит.

    Урусов (читает очень картаво). «...Согласно каковым пунктам, уступаю в полную собственность Фомину Василию Елисеевичу извозопромышленное заведение моё в составе, как поименованно...»
    Кому - нары, кому - Канары.

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    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
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    Hmm... some reasearch indicates: speaking with the trilling of 'r'
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

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    Завсегдатай sperk's Avatar
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    I've also seen it defined as someone who trouble pronouncing the letters L and R, which doesn't make alot of sense to me unless the speaker is Japanese.
    Кому - нары, кому - Канары.

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    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
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    Japanese can pronounce the letter 'R' fine.

    How do you say "thank you" in Japanese?
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

  5. #5
    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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    Почтенный гражданин
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    Картавить is to pronounce the "r" or "l" in Russian atypically. This is not always due to speech defect. The old Russian aristocracy sometimes pronounced the "r" differently, which is sometimes attributed to the French or German influence of their tutors since they were often brought up multilingually with multiple tutors in their households.

    I'm told that Ленин сам картавил на «р». This is sometimes reflected in writing by replacing the «р» with a «г», which led a Russian friend of mine to snort and chuckle when she pointed out that Lenin never said «всё равно» but rather «всё гaвно».

    Take a look at «Анекдоты о Ленине» at ru.wikipedia.org, which also mentions this.

    I know a man who is the descendant of Russian aristocracy raised in England. Someone mocked him for his British accent when speaking Russian. Another listen rebuked the mocker saying that he had missed the point entirely. The accent he was hearing wasn't a British accent, but rather the old aristocratic pronunciation, which had been preserved in this family. His sibilants were curious, too. That is, his ш, щ and ж were pronounced differently than current Muscovite dialect.

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    Sometimes Russian children aren't able to pronounce [р] correctly and in most cases they картавят.

    I wan't able to do that until 11 y.o.
    «И всё, что сейчас происходит внутре — тоже является частью вселенной».

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    Japanese can pronounce the letter 'R' fine.

    How do you say "thank you" in Japanese?
    Arigato or Aligato or somewhere in between, depending on who says it.

    That's the whole point.

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    What's the whole point?
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

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    That's unfair! It wasn't easy to find the very place in the thick book (The Bleak House) where the cousin of Sir Leicester Dedlock speaks perfectly картавя and then be disappointed finding that in the original text he doesn't at all, because he does only in Russian translation but not in the original Dickens' novel!

    I love when reading the book I encounter someone картавый, it's always so funny. At least untill the moment when you meet such people in the real life. Especially when you just have to have an earnest air.
    Oh, and I кортавлю a little and can't say л or р properly.
    Я так думаю.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    What's the whole point?
    Eh?

  12. #12
    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotcher
    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    Japanese can pronounce the letter 'R' fine.

    How do you say "thank you" in Japanese?
    Arigato or Aligato or somewhere in between, depending on who says it.

    That's the whole point.
    My point was that Japanese can say 'R', and I prove it by using a Japanese word that contains an 'R'.

    Then you repeat the word and call it the whole point.

    I am soliciting more elaboration on what you call the whole point.

    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

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    [quote=kalinka_vinnie]
    Quote Originally Posted by scotcher
    Quote Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":20z7o8yh
    Japanese can pronounce the letter 'R' fine.

    How do you say "thank you" in Japanese?
    Arigato or Aligato or somewhere in between, depending on who says it.

    That's the whole point.
    My point was that Japanese can say 'R', and I prove it by using a Japanese word that contains an 'R'.

    Then you repeat the word and call it the whole point.

    I am soliciting more elaboration on what you call the whole point.

    [/quote:20z7o8yh]

    But the Japanese R is not an R, it is a sound we don't have in English or Russian or, I would wager, Norwegian, and is pronounced somewhere between an R and an L. That's why Japanese people can have trouble distinguishing Rs from Ls when they start speaking foreigns languages.

    Which is, I think, what sperk meant.

    So when you said "How do you say "thank you" in Japanese?" you were not even contradicting what sperk said, never mind proving it incorrect, even though you evidently thought you were doing both.

  14. #14
    Завсегдатай kalinka_vinnie's Avatar
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    Well, the thing is it is the Chinese that can't say 'R', but the Japanese can. At least my Japanese friends could!
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    Well, the thing is it is the Chinese that can't say 'R', but the Japanese can.
    The thing is nothing Vinnie. Having a difficulty in distinguish L and R has been noted in speakers of both Japenese and Mandarin, as well as in every other language containing sounds that don't directly correspond to R and L.

    There's even a word for it: Engrish

    Usual wikipeadia caveats apply, but from the link:

    The term originates from the fact that Japanese (as well as several other East Asian languages) does not have separate sounds for R and L. In Japanese the R sound is pronounced as an alveolar lateral flap (ɾ), articulated with the tongue flapped against the hard palate behind the front teeth, so that it sounds like a Spanish soft R. Because Japanese does not have a separate equivalent for the English L, native Japanese speakers not fluent in English often mispronounce English words containing the letter L. While the term mocks the accent, it is used mainly without malice in reference to humorous misuses, puns, and double entendres within written English, not difficulties in pronunciation. For example, "election" might be pronounced "erection".

    Note that even though the "L" and "R" error is often attributed to Chinese, in reality, there are distinct "L" and "R" sounds in standard spoken Chinese (Mandarin). Various dialects of the Chinese languages, however do not have such clear separation with a general pattern being the further south in the country one travels, the more likely one is to see the "L" and "N" sounds confused (central China) or even the "L", "N" and "R" sounds freely alternated (south of the Yangtze River/Changjiang).
    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    At least my Japanese friends could!
    Lucky them. I don't think anyone has posited that all Japanese people find this difficult, any more than you meant all Chinese people do.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotcher
    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
    Well, the thing is it is the Chinese that can't say 'R', but the Japanese can.
    The thing is nothing Vinnie. Having a difficulty in distinguish L and R has been noted in speakers of both Japenese and Mandarin, as well as in every other language containing sounds that don't directly correspond to R and L.

    There's even a word for it: Engrish

    Usual wikipeadia caveats apply, but from the link:

    The term originates from the fact that Japanese (as well as several other East Asian languages) does not have separate sounds for R and L. In Japanese the R sound is pronounced as an alveolar lateral flap (ɾ), articulated with the tongue flapped against the hard palate behind the front teeth, so that it sounds like a Spanish soft R. Because Japanese does not have a separate equivalent for the English L, native Japanese speakers not fluent in English often mispronounce English words containing the letter L. While the term mocks the accent, it is used mainly without malice in reference to humorous misuses, puns, and double entendres within written English, not difficulties in pronunciation. For example, "election" might be pronounced "erection".

    Note that even though the "L" and "R" error is often attributed to Chinese, in reality, there are distinct "L" and "R" sounds in standard spoken Chinese (Mandarin). Various dialects of the Chinese languages, however do not have such clear separation with a general pattern being the further south in the country one travels, the more likely one is to see the "L" and "N" sounds confused (central China) or even the "L", "N" and "R" sounds freely alternated (south of the Yangtze River/Changjiang).
    I, of course, give up, but let me add that, contrary to popular belief, according to the above quote, Japanese don't have trouble pronouncing 'R', but pronouncing 'L'. I for some reason though Sperk was saying the opposite. Did I win the award for the most commas yet?
    Hei, rett norsken min og du er død.
    I am a notourriouse misspeller. Be easy on me.
    Пожалуйста! Исправляйте мои глупые ошибки (но оставьте умные)!
    Yo hablo español mejor que tú.
    Trusnse kal'rt eturule sikay!!! ))

  17. #17
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    You did commas great. The audience clap you.
    «И всё, что сейчас происходит внутре — тоже является частью вселенной».

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rtyom
    You did commas great. The audience claps for you.
    Correct my mistakes and I will give you +1 internets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

    I, of course, give up, but let me add that, contrary to popular belief, according to the above quote, Japanese don't have trouble pronouncing 'R', but pronouncing 'L'. I for some reason though Sperk was saying the opposite. Did I win the award for the most commas yet?
    Yeah, sperk's post might have been better phrased "trouble distinguishing between..." rather than "trouble pronouncing...." if he had actually been talking about that particular phenomenon, but he wasn't, he was talking about the definition of Картавить in Russian and only alluded to the Japanese pronunciation of L and R to make a point.

    And anyway, none of that makes it any less nonsensical to use a Japanese word that doesn't contain an R to prove that Japanese people can pronounce an R.

    It would be like saying that Russian people don't have trouble pronouncing the English letter i because their word for open is otkrit.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by xRoosterx
    Quote Originally Posted by Rtyom
    You did commas great. The audience claps for you.
    I guess that's what I really meant. Thanks.
    «И всё, что сейчас происходит внутре — тоже является частью вселенной».

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