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Thread: "Tie your shoe and zip your pants!" (and related expressions)

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    "Tie your shoe and zip your pants!" (and related expressions)

    Actually, I have a few general questions about the correct constructions that are used to describe the various "fasteners" (застёжки?) on clothing, not just tying the shoes or zipping the pants.

    I'm familiar with the basic verbs involved:

    застегнуть and расстегнуть
    завязать and развязать
    зашнуровать and расшнуровать

    But here are the questions:

    (1) With застегнуть, what is the usual accusative object that follows the verb -- the item of clothing, or the fastener on the clothing? In other words, would one say:

    Я застегнул рубашку.

    OR

    Я застегнул пуговицы на рубашке.

    (In English, you can say either "I buttoned the shirt" or "I buttoned the buttons on the shirt.")

    If I'm not mistaken, when tying the shoes, one says either завязать шнурки or зашнуровать туфли/ботинки (but not зашнуровать шнурки) -- is that right?

    And to express what type of fastener a garment has (i.e, whether it closes with buttons or a zipper or buckles or velcro or whatever) would you say, for example:

    У меня две зимних куртки. Красная застёгивается на молнии, а чёрная -- на пуговицах.

    (2) To say "her shoe is untied" or "your pants are unzipped", does it sound more colloquial to use the -ся form of the appropriate рас- verb in the past perfective? In other words:

    У неё туфля расшнуровалась.
    У вас штаны растегнулись. (or "молния растегулась"??)

    OR can you use the short form of the past passive participle instead:

    У неё туфля расшнурована.
    У вас штаны растегнуты.

    (3) Finally, what's the standard term for "Velcro"? Is it treated like an indeclinable noun such as велькро, or should one say "лента Velcro", or what? And does Velcro застёгивается, or is there some other verb like прилипается that's commonly used?

    Спасибо заранее!

    ЗЫ: I almost forgot! Is there a "polite euphemism" to tell someone that "The fly of your pants is unzipped"? I'm pretty sure every American schoolchild knows "XYZ, PDQ!" ("Examine your zipper, pretty darn quick!")

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    By the way, I was talking with my sister recently about my nephew's difficulty in tying his shoes (he's five). Only his "church shoes" have шнурки -- all the others close with velcro, so he doesn't get much practice with shoelaces. (Velcro shoes were almost unheard of when my sister and I were that age, and we certainly didn't have any shoes with red LEDs that light up and flash with each step!)

    Anyway, the conversation reminded me that I wasn't 100% sure about how to express some of these things in Russian.
    Говорит Бегемот: "Dear citizens of MR -- please correct my Russian mistakes!"

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    Властелин
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    1. Я застегнул рубашку. Я застегнул пуговицы на рубашке. - both are fine. You can also just say Я застегнул пуговицы. As for зашнуровать шнурки, this is incorrect and doesn't make sense (can you say lace the laces in English, by the way?)

    2. У меня две зимних куртки. Красная застёгивается на молнии, а чёрная -- на пуговицах. - this is fine, but it's better to say Красная -- на молнии, красная куртка на молнии, or Красная застёгивается на молнию. But very often the word застёгивается is not used, it's just куртка на молнии, куртка на пуговицах.

    3. У неё туфля расшнуровалась or У неё туфля расшнурована - this is OK grammatically and both make sense, but sound a bit formal, people just say - У неё шнурки развязались, or У неё шнурок развязался.
    У Вас штаны расстегнулись, У Вас молния расстёгнута, У вас штаны расстегнуты, У вас молния расстегнулась - all are fine.

    4. Velcro = липучка, or seldom застёжка. e.g., Туфли на липучках (Velcro shoes), кроссовки на липучках (Velcro sneakers, Velcro running shoes), куртка на липучках. By the way, you can find Velcro in wikipedia in English, then click on the Russian and get the Russian equivalent, in 99% cases it works.

    5. XYZ, PDQ! - the one similar to that in Russian that I remember might be "Ворота закрой!" or "Ворота прикрой!" - Close your gates! (but it's not very polite)

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    У меня две зимних куртки. Красная застёгивается на молнию (if the zip is only one), а чёрная - на пуговицы (it застегивается на пуговицы).

    or, alternatively

    У меня две зимних куртки. Красная - на молнии, а чёрная - на пуговицах.

    The cases should be the same. In the first version the both are accusative, related to the word "застегивается" (answers the question "застегивается на что?", in the second version the both are prepositional (answers "на чём?").

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    Actually, I have a few general questions about the correct constructions that are used to describe the various "fasteners" (застёжки?) on clothing, not just tying the shoes or zipping the pants.

    I'm familiar with the basic verbs involved:

    застегнуть and расстегнуть
    завязать and развязать
    зашнуровать and расшнуровать

    But here are the questions:

    (1) With застегнуть, what is the usual accusative object that follows the verb -- the item of clothing, or the fastener on the clothing? In other words, would one say:

    Я застегнул рубашку.

    OR

    Я застегнул пуговицы на рубашке.


    (In English, you can say either "I buttoned the shirt" or "I buttoned the buttons on the shirt.")
    both are correct, you can even say Я застегнул рубашку на все пуговицы

    if you miss one button on a shirt a person may say to you Застегни пуговицу, because Застегни рубашку wouldn't be accurate or clear enough as technically your shirt is already buttoned up



    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post

    If I'm not mistaken, when tying the shoes, one says either завязать шнурки or зашнуровать туфли/ботинки (but not зашнуровать шнурки) -- is that right?
    Yes


    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post

    У меня две зимних куртки. Красная застёгивается на молнии, а чёрная -- на пуговицах.
    already answered

    молния is also змЕйка, this is the word i personally prefer
    for pants instead of молния you can also use fly - гУльфик (rare) or ширИнка (more frequent), however for some reason ширинка is considered not a very decent word, therefore in public it's best avoided


    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    (2) To say "her shoe is untied" or "your pants are unzipped", does it sound more colloquial to use the -ся form of the appropriate рас- verb in the past perfective? In other words:

    У неё туфля расшнуровалась.
    У вас штаны растегнулись. (or "молния растегулась"??)

    OR can you use the short form of the past passive participle instead:

    У неё туфля расшнурована.
    У вас штаны растегнуты.
    these are pretty bookish variants and all are legit, however informally it would be said like

    У неё шнурок на туфле развязался
    OR
    У неё шнурки развязались no matter whether it's on both shoes or just on one

    As for

    У него ширинка расстегнулась/расстёгнута

    Штаны for pants is substandard and folksy or good for when you don't know how to name the piece of clothes, normally you'd say брЮки or джИнсы or whatever the person wears

    Брюки расстёгнуты is a pretty wholesale statement as it implies that the pants barely hang on on a person, the belt is unlocked or loose as well, therefore if you only mean the fly you'd say

    У него ширинка расстегнулась/расстёгнута
    OR
    У него на брюках змейка/молния расстегнулась/расстёгнута
    У него на брюках пуговицы расстегнулись/расстёгнуты

    because the fly can be on a zipper as well as on buttons

    the last two are not particularly clear but you can't help it if you want to avoid the words гульфик and ширинка


    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    (3) Finally, what's the standard term for "Velcro"? Is it treated like an indeclinable noun such as велькро, or should one say "лента Velcro", or what? And does Velcro застёгивается, or is there some other verb like прилипается that's commonly used?
    velcro is sometimes called репЕйник because it clings like agrimony, however липУчка is much more common

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    Старший оракул CoffeeCup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    зашнуровать and расшнуровать
    ...
    If I'm not mistaken, when tying the shoes, one says either завязать шнурки or зашнуровать туфли/ботинки (but not зашнуровать шнурки) -- is that right?
    расшнуровать / зашнуровать - are used when a shoelace is taken totally out (or inserted in the lace holes when it was totally out) of the shoe.
    So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeCup View Post
    расшнуровать / зашнуровать - are used when a shoelace is taken totally out (or inserted in the lace holes when it was totally out) of the shoe.
    indeed it's the literary norm

    colloquially however people often use it synonymically to завязать шнурки на

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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    У меня две зимних куртки.
    Я бы сказал: "У меня две зимние куртки и два зимних пальто."

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    Я бы сказал: "У меня две зимние куртки и два зимних пальто."
    could be one of those elusive apocryphal Russian cases like

    у меня два простых карандаша и две шариковые ручки/шариковых ручки

    лишительный?

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    Старший оракул
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    By the way, I was talking with my sister recently about my nephew's difficulty in tying his shoes (he's five). Only his "church shoes" have шнурки -- all the others close with velcro, so he doesn't get much practice with shoelaces. (Velcro shoes were almost unheard of when my sister and I were that age, and we certainly didn't have any shoes with red LEDs that light up and flash with each step!)
    Википедия утверждает, что Velcro это "ворсистая молния, ворсовка, текстильная застежка, лента Velcro, лента-контакт, липучка, мампапа"...

    Мампапа?!!

    Я бы в формальном контексте использовал "застёжка Велкро", а в остальных случаях "липучка". Остальные варианты я никогда раньше не встречал.
    Налево пойдёшь - коня потеряешь, направо пойдёшь - сам голову сложишь.
    Прямой путь не предлагать!

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    Словарь "Лингво" даёт для ширинки:
    у тебя ширинка расстёгнута — your shop door is open
    Кстати ШИРИНКА по-моему - это просто часть брюк, используемая для застёгивания, и необязательно эта часть выполнена на основе "молнии": бывают ширинки и на пуговицах, а возможно, и на липучках!

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    Википедия утверждает, что Velcro это "ворсистая молния, ворсовка, текстильная застежка, лента Velcro, лента-контакт, липучка, мампапа"...

    Мампапа?!!

    Я бы в формальном контексте использовал "застёжка Велкро", а в остальных случаях "липучка". Остальные варианты я никогда раньше не встречал.
    Пожалуй, я тоже никогда не слышал про Мампап в контексте одежды, а Velcro перевел бы с мягким знаком как "велькро" (но и без "ь" тоже правильно). Так или иначе, что такое "липучка" знают все, а про существование "велькро" догадывается, наверное, лишь один из тысячи.
    "У меня две зимние куртки и два зимних пальто."
    +1
    Я бы тоже так сказал.

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    Thanks, everybody, for the detailed and helpful answers!

    alexsms: (can you say lace the laces in English, by the way?)
    Absolutely, but the meaning would most often be similar to the definition that CoffeeCup gives here:

    расшнуровать / зашнуровать - are used when a shoelace is taken totally out (or inserted in the lace holes when it was totally out) of the shoe.
    So one would typically say "lace the laces" (or "lace the shoes") if you are putting the shoelaces in the holes of new shoes, or replacing a broken shoelace. Otherwise, "(un)tie the (shoe)laces" or "(un)tie the shoes" sounds more colloquial.

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    velcro is sometimes called репЕйник because it clings like agrimony, however липУчка is much more common
    Hmm, I've never even heard of agrimony, though wikipedia says that it grows in North America. Supposedly velcro was inspired by the seeds of the burdock plant -- called лопух in Russian, according to wiki.

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    Hmm, I've never even heard of agrimony, though wikipedia says that it grows in North America. Supposedly velcro was inspired by the seeds of the burdock plant -- called лопух in Russian, according to wiki.
    Лопух and репейник is one and the same plant. I took translation from a dictionary so it could be inaccurate. There's burdock as well.

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  16. #16
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    Wiki says that the English 'agrimony' corresponds to the Russian "репешок" which is absolutely different plant.

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    Hmmm, what would be the Russian name for this plant, as shown in a Scottish coat-of-arms:



    (I deliberately chose this image because it's a stylized drawing, not a photo. I'm certain that the vast majority of English speakers would call this plant a "thistle", but there are many different species of thistle and I can't tell from wikipedia what the common Russian name would be -- maybe чертополох, maybe бодяк, I'm not sure.)
    Говорит Бегемот: "Dear citizens of MR -- please correct my Russian mistakes!"

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    Почтенный гражданин LXNDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    Russian name would be -- maybe чертополох, maybe бодяк, I'm not sure.)
    that's right, both

    чертополох

    бодяк

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    чертополох is commonly used

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