Thread: Your service in the millitary? 2 years required?

Originally Posted by Barmaley

Originally Posted by Ramil

Not so simple. No one in US military really wants to die for his country. NO ONE. Why?

Newsflash: nobody wants to die, period. Yet people have done so for many, many years in the service of their country. They will continue to do so, sadly. As you admit, people sign up voluntarily every day to do just that -- otherwise we couldn't fight all those "offensive" wars.

Of course nobody wants to die but sometimes you have to. The main thing at that is - whatever for? I wonder whether any of american soldiers killed in Iraq had discovered that reason for themselves before they have died?
What did those soldiers die for? To secure the world's prices in oil market? The goal justifies the means indeed.

Because every military campaign of U.S.A. was offensive. Americans have always been agressors (in a neutral meaning of this word, i.e. they have always fought abroad. It's simply due to the geographical location).

Really? I wasn't aware that the French and Indian War (ok, technically not American, but close enough), the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, and the American Civil War were fought abroad. New Orleans is where? And when they burned down the White House, that was what country? Gettysburg isn't an American town? Bunker Hill is a trendy part of London? I think not. [/quote]

Well, I meant 20-th century and I was trying to illustrate the notion that americans didn't fight for their homes, families and children in the most wars of the past century. Of course when you fought brits or were butchering each other in the civil war it was quite another matter. But since then - you've lived perfectly safe an ocean far from the most disasterous events in the human history. Maybe that's why it is so that you've gone searching for adventures elsewhere.

Americans don't hate their enemies, they're just doing the job when pulling the trigger. They're more organized, better armed, have an efficient commandment but just one thing remains that they can't cope with - the human hatred against them.

Yes we do. We absolutely hated the British, we hated the Nazis and Japanese, and we still do hate these terrorist douchebags.
[/quote]
Who we? American nation is a quite heterogeneus mass. There ARE people in USA who actually have celebrated 9.11.
And the US army is not an exception from the overall statistical rule.

Note that those first three are now steadfast allies -- hopefully the states that the douchebags hail from eventually become so as well. And the human hatred against you allege is just natural -- you can't win 'em all.

They fight for their land and their lives. Americans fight for a salary.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Well, I meant 20-th century and I was trying to illustrate the notion that americans didn't fight for their homes, families and children in the most wars of the past century. Of course when you fought brits or were butchering each other in the civil war it was quite another matter. But since then - you lived perfectly safe an ocean far from the most disasterous events in the human history. Maybe that's why it is so that you've gone searching for adventures elsewhere.

If that's what you meant, then your logic is even more flawed. Americans didn't remain unexposed from the disasters of the 20th century. Americans liberated concentration camps, died in France, Germany, and Europe and Asia more generally, and died in New York City on 9/11. To suggest that because we live between the Atlantic and Pacific it means we have no idea what pain, suffering, and oppression are is absurd.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Who we? American nation is a quite heterogeneus mass. There ARE people in USA who actually have celebrated 9.11.
And the US army is not an exception from the overall statistical rule.

Of course it's a "heterogenous mass," as you put it, and of course that's dumbing it down. I only continued to do so because that's how you started framing the argument. And yeah, there were people who celebrated 9/11 here. There were probably about 10 of them and they're total jackasses. I don't know what "statisical rule" you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Ramil

They fight for their land and their lives. Americans fight for a salary.

Right. No other armed body in this world fights for money -- they do it for free. I suppose you'd rather have forced conscription with virtually no salary? Oh wait, that's the Russian army... That's really worked out well... I guess that's why they're phasing that out and going to a volunteer force.

Are they? I weep for joy inside for young Russians (men only?).

I would more readily die for something than kill a stranger for it in most cases.

Originally Posted by Friendy

So I don't think that aggression alone is the reason that non-violent choice doesn't prevail. I think the answer about that reason, to a large extent, lies in Baba Yaga's post.

The choice doesnt prevail because there is no choice to start with. Did you choose to be born a female? If you were born a boy, then a) it wouldn't be you b) your thinking and priorities would be entirely different. They are the way you're programmed genetically and the way you are raised (pretty much programmed again). I see no particular freedom here.

As for the ideals, we all know a society that in the beginning of the 20th century attempted to follow ideals (aka communist ideals) rather than reality. We also know how well that went. I'd rather let people let their steam out gradually than eventually have a WW3, with a nuclear arsenal this time. Or it will happen and we go extinct, big deal, just another species that outlived itself.

Something is predetermined. But this is the basis for us, to aim us at development and not at counter-development. Our life consists of a good deal of choices! Not to have a positive advantage of it is a sin. However, putting aside this idea is a choice in itself too. Aggression never brings something good for both sides. And when the majority of people ceases aggressing there won't be any threat of WWIII.

I don't believe that your human nature can not be overcome. That is what civilization is all about. I am Norwegian, 1100 years ago my fellow genetics went on rape, pillage and burn raids all over Europe. I can control my rape, pillage and burn emotions. It is a matter of proper education and social enviroment, that's all. If I was born in Palestine, and everybody tells me from the day I was born that Jews are evil, I will believe it and hate them until I blow myself up.

Right. No other armed body in this world fights for money -- they do it for free.

They fight for their lives and the lives of those they love rather than money. They fight because if they don't they are screwed, they don't have a choice. All an American has to do is not join the army, and then there isn't the possibility of a bomb falling on their head in their sleep. A lot of Americans don't even believe in the war. It's not like their wife and children back in America could be killed at any moment by a stray bullet....

And the other lot of Americans would disagree. They would say bombs WOULD fall on their heads (in forms of hijacked planes, for example) if we weren't fighting the terrorists somewhere else. Their wives and children would be sniped by some idiot in a car.

Yes but it's not on the same level. Most of them wouldn't be able to imagine that happening to them. It's not something that happens every day in America, it's a possibility of what COULD happen, not what DOES happen.

Originally Posted by basurero

Yes but it's not on the same level. Most of them wouldn't be able to imagine that happening to them. It's not something that happens every day in America, it's a possibility of what COULD happen, not what DOES happen.

Does downtown Washington = Baghdad? No way. Of course, it's not as dangerous at any given moment as those poor people who are just caught in the middle. But I assure you it IS something that is on people's minds. What you have to understand is that our dilemma security-wise is this: we're too good. I don't say that in a pompous way, but it's true. No country/idiotic group is going to engage in a conventional head-to-head battle with the US military, because it's impossible to win. The only means that DOES give them a chance of success is to attack in non-conventional ways and against non-conventional targets. So there's the rebuttal to your question. We don't expect a repeat of the British ravaging the White House any time soon, but, guess what: a handful of filth can crash planes into a building or release biological weapons and reek havoc on a country.

As for your differentiating between what does/could happen, you're right. We are very fortunate not to have daily bombings rocking our capital. But at the same time, I think the history here is very clear: these things do happen and they can be catastrophic. I hate to keep bringing up 9/11, but it's absolutely something that is very real here, to this day.

In any case, I'm not going to post further on this topic -- I've told you why, and I've already wasted enought time on it. But I would like to say that I appreciate the fact that this has been conducted in such a civilized fashion. So often these things erupt into massive flamewars and that's yet to happen here -- let's keep it that way!

I see your point. I'm also not going to argue anymore about this, as being lucky enough not to live in America, I can't possibly understand what it's like over there right now and how average people feel about these issues... and the same goes for Baghdad.

LOL "lucky enough not to live in America"! That pretty much sums how big of a misconception you have of this country.

lol, I put that in because I thought it would be funny to see how you'd react... Anyway, I'd say I have a bigger understanding of America than some other people here, seeing as I have lived there before and both my parents grew up there, although I admit I'm no expert

One really doesn't understand America after only spending a few months or even a few years there. Many Americans have spent there whole lives in America and still don't understand America (think Britany Spears here). It all depends on what you allow to influence you. If your influence is pop culture/university/PBS centered you will not understand the "big picture" and end up hating America.

After returning to Australia I have found that Australians generally have no clue as to what America is all about and that their most common resources for information is biased and sometimes outright untruthful when depicting the USA.

Originally Posted by DDT

One really doesn't understand America after only spending a few months or even a few years there. Many Americans have spent there whole lives in America and still don't understand America (think Britany Spears here). It all depends on what you allow to influence you. If your influence is pop culture/university/PBS centered you will not understand the "big picture" and end up hating America.

While there are tons of people who are totally ignorant, even the semi-informed are often flat wrong. For example, (I'm afraid I'm assuming a great deal of political knowledge) if you were told that the budget defecit during the Reagan administration was due to Reagan's tax cuts, you'd probably believe me.

Actually, income tax revenue increased as a result of the tax cuts, we just spent waaaay too much money trying to beat Communism.

Along similar lines, most liberal voters believe that 'conservatives' (Republicans) want big business to trample the poor masses. On the contrary, we just feel that a limited government involvement and low taxes allows the free-market system to better work to everyone's advantage, for example by offering tax incentives for job creation etc.

With me Blackmage, you are preaching to the choir.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I don't believe that your human nature can not be overcome. That is what civilization is all about. I am Norwegian, 1100 years ago my fellow genetics went on rape, pillage and burn raids all over Europe. I can control my rape, pillage and burn emotions. It is a matter of proper education and social enviroment, that's all.

The notion is sweet but look around you.

actually it was the spread of christianity that tamed (or ruined) the vikings.......and the rest of europe for that matter.

Originally Posted by Barmaley

Originally Posted by Ramil

Well, I meant 20-th century and I was trying to illustrate the notion that americans didn't fight for their homes, families and children in the most wars of the past century. Of course when you fought brits or were butchering each other in the civil war it was quite another matter. But since then - you lived perfectly safe an ocean far from the most disasterous events in the human history. Maybe that's why it is so that you've gone searching for adventures elsewhere.

If that's what you meant, then your logic is even more flawed. Americans didn't remain unexposed from the disasters of the 20th century.

But safe nevertheless with the possible exception of Pearl Harbour.

Originally Posted by Barmaley

Americans liberated concentration camps, died in France, Germany, and Europe and Asia more generally,

Yes they did. Moreover they've been shipping war goods to allies and generally were a providing valuable help in defeating Germany and Japan. But there had been also Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Yugoslavia etc. What have they been fighting for in these wars?

Originally Posted by Barmaley

and died in New York City on 9/11. To suggest that because we live between the Atlantic and Pacific it means we have no idea what pain, suffering, and oppression are is absurd.

That's speaks much of you personally, which I appreciate, but not of the whole nation.

Originally Posted by Barmaley

Originally Posted by Ramil

Who we? American nation is a quite heterogeneus mass. There ARE people in USA who actually have celebrated 9.11.
And the US army is not an exception from the overall statistical rule.

Of course it's a "heterogenous mass," as you put it, and of course that's dumbing it down. I only continued to do so because that's how you started framing the argument. And yeah, there were people who celebrated 9/11 here. There were probably about 10 of them and they're total jackasses. I don't know what "statisical rule" you're talking about.

Statistical rule is simple - Since there are people in America whose moral principles are not quite right, there bound to be such people in US military also, for the army is a part of the nation.
As russian proverb says: Every family has a freak of its own.

Originally Posted by Barmaley

Originally Posted by Ramil

They fight for their land and their lives. Americans fight for a salary.

Right. No other armed body in this world fights for money -- they do it for free. I suppose you'd rather have forced conscription with virtually no salary? Oh wait, that's the Russian army... That's really worked out well... I guess that's why they're phasing that out and going to a volunteer force.

That's beside the point. So called "Enemies of America" HAVE things to fight for except money. America just got used to secure its ambitions by force if necessary. Live and let others live the way they prefer and nobody will hate you and bomb with hijacked planes.

Originally Posted by adoc

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I don't believe that your human nature can not be overcome. That is what civilization is all about. I am Norwegian, 1100 years ago my fellow genetics went on rape, pillage and burn raids all over Europe. I can control my rape, pillage and burn emotions. It is a matter of proper education and social enviroment, that's all.

The notion is sweet but look around you.

I look around me. Now, instead of war, we are talking about crime, am I right? What causes crime? Look at who commits the crime and you will see that 99% of violent crimes (murders, rapes, abuse, etc.) are committed by:

- Poor/despearte people (lack of social status/ lack of education)
- Mentally unstable people (victims of childhood crimes/ very bad social enviroment)
- "Bad" people (lack of education/ lack of stable social enviroment during life)

Of course you have exceptions like OJ, Micheal Jackson (although they were never proven guilty )