Thread: what religion was believed before orthodox christianism?

You've dodged my question again, dear Chinitial. Just admit it - you are on this forum to spread your racist theories and the vocabulary of 19th century imperialists fits the entire mood of your posts better.

Your posts have nothing to do with the topic of this forum, as I've said. This forum is not a chatroom and it is not the CrystalLinks message board. If you would go to one of those places, I guarantee you would find people who are at least a little more receptive to your ideas. But the fact that almost noone has bothered to read your posts or answer to them in a non-skeptical manner shows that
1)they are not related to the topic of this forum
2)you seem to have a problem with writing coherently.

Your posts about learning languages were slightly relevant to the topic of this forum, but the rest of your crap isn't. Have you noticed that the tone of my posts in that thread was not rude at all, perhaps because that thread actually had something to do with language-learning(which, I remind you, is the main purpose of this forum)?

Originally Posted by chinitial

Secret intellgience group of Pakistani has abducted me on Feb 27 2004 and sent me to Musharraf mansion to work as sex slave. For this reason I can no longer speak the coherent sentence. The cynicism only a line to skepticism, but Pakistani forces are tryign to hide the truth.

Chinitial, what's with the incoherent rambling? Your claim that Pakistani intelligence agents abducted you and forced you to work as a sex slave for Pervez Musharraf is entirely unfounded. It is well known that on the date you mentioned, good old Musharraf was giving a speech at the ASEAN conference in Indonesia. I suggest you have your head examined. And besides, old Perv-Perv is mine.

Pravit: You're an imbecil. You haven't understood my questions in the race thread even when I tried to answer and digest it for you. I said I will write what I want and your effort are useless. Yet, since I know you are so touchy understanding things I didn't say and believe I am racist (although in fact I do have black friends and recognize the intelligent of ancient Chinese), now because of you stepping on my back I feel somehow incentivated to do the contrary of what you say. In fact I am gonna write about the touchy things and I don't care your speculations about my persona because I have not said a single word about my ethnic background, you have tried to make supositions about "wetback"or "spik" or Portuguese and you don't know anything about me and the fact I'm writing from Brazil is mere circunstancial. Now, you will adore my posting and preaching...just to add a little salt and pepper to General Discussion which is the same rutine about language and then, when I want I will witdraw but in no way because a Chinese fellow man wants me to. Now, I didn't write the word you think is offensive, yet my intention when I'm writing Chinese ....well.....that's another thing and you were fighting for peanuts. No more dialogue with idiot like you.

For what purpose do you use outdated racial terms, then? Don't give me this "salt and pepper" bullshit. In the few days you have been here, you have posted ten-page long posts of crap which noone cares to read, because they have nothing to do with this forum.

Originally Posted by chinitial

The medications was a very bad taste, the skepticism of Silva Mind Control not wanting to taste the bad; so the end result of medication's state was thrown into the streeett. The dcotor bad man not wanting to see the light of mind control possibility. So therefore not see the doctor.

This explains everything.

Hey, hey, hey, wait now, now wait, wait now... now, wait...

Children:
Let's take a deep breath and count to 200432.

Chinitial posts a question about slavic Gods, gets his answer, and writes 2 pages of stuff that not even 0.1% of the users on Masterrussian.net will be interested in, I mean we are here to learn stuff about Russia, not about Egyptian sniffing of mummies in 3D schizophrenic freudian pictorals (that was a joke, btw, no molotov cocktails please). Luckily, I am part of the 0.1% and actually am interested in the stuff, but I go to other sites for that. Chinitial, thanks for the info, but this is the wrong site for it But it really doesn't matter.

Now, dear Pravit, let apples be oranges and bury the hatchet. Just because our good friend Chinitial writes about things he is interested in, and you are not, does not give you an excuse to challenge his intellect and give him shit for it. No matter how many times he has called you chinaman. If you don't want to read about the subject, you don't have to read it. Ignoration is bliss (adapted phrase for masterrussian.net).

bottom line: If you are not interested in this topic, Молчи!

Now I will take a firm grip of my buttocks, and butt out of this conversation

Remember guys, fighting on internet forums is like winning a Ukrainian election: Even if you win, you're still a retard.

Dear friends Kalinka_vinnie and TATY, you are right. It's obvious our friend just wants some attention, and I think we've given him enough. I was merely doing my part to fight the infestation of internet cranks and off-topic rambling, but I forgot Rule Number One of Internet Crank Warfare: any attention for one of these guys is good attention.

Originally Posted by chinitial

Pravit: you have serious mind impeachment! The topic here is not language but GENERAL discussion and if you go to the first part you will see there are many places where you can write about Russian language, here is not only language in general. Allow me -since you're not the owner of the forum- to write what I think I can write. You're not pushed to read me. Why do you give so much attention? Just ignore me as I pretend to do if you insist in this unreasonable behavior! Who do you think you are to say what I should or shouldn't write?

1. Although the forum is called "General Discussion", it is still in the "Russian Language" section. The posts should be related to the Russian langauage and/or culture. Please, read the rule #1 here

2. Regarding the "mind impeachment" phrase, please see the rule #3 here

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Chinitial posts a question about slavic Gods, gets his answer, and writes 2 pages of stuff that not even 0.1% of the users on Masterrussian.net will be interested in, I mean we are here to learn stuff about Russia, not about Egyptian sniffing of mummies in 3D schizophrenic freudian pictorals (that was a joke, btw, no molotov cocktails please).

I am concerned about that too. There will be more moderation on such posts if this continues.

Originally Posted by MasterAdmin

Originally Posted by chinitial

Pravit: you have serious mind impeachment! The topic here is not language but GENERAL discussion and if you go to the first part you will see there are many places where you can write about Russian language, here is not only language in general. Allow me -since you're not the owner of the forum- to write what I think I can write. You're not pushed to read me. Why do you give so much attention? Just ignore me as I pretend to do if you insist in this unreasonable behavior! Who do you think you are to say what I should or shouldn't write?

1. Although the forum is called "General Discussion", it is still in the "Russian Language" section. The posts should be related to the Russian langauage and/or culture. Please, read the rule #1 here

2. Regarding the "mind impeachment" phrase, please see the rule #3 here

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Chinitial posts a question about slavic Gods, gets his answer, and writes 2 pages of stuff that not even 0.1% of the users on Masterrussian.net will be interested in, I mean we are here to learn stuff about Russia, not about Egyptian sniffing of mummies in 3D schizophrenic freudian pictorals (that was a joke, btw, no molotov cocktails please).

I am concerned about that too. There will be more moderation on such posts if this continues.

Ban the bastard

Well, it appears I am here too late for it to be worth while, but I actually studied Slavic Heathenism a little a few years ago after a dream i had(which my slavic heathen friend seemed to no more about than myself as far as defining figures in it).

Unfortunately I have lost my old links, but I can tell you that Slavic heathenism is similair to most other indo european traditions as far as ritual goes. What differentiates it, in my mind, is that it is much darker than other traditions(such as the Norse/Asatru).

There are two "central" gods in the creation story, a light and a dark, Belobog and Chernobog, respectively. Although Chernobog is the "dark" god he isn't "evil"(like the christian adversary/satan). I actually don't remember the story well enough to repeat it coherently, so you'll just have to look it up if you're really interested.

Despite what I have written, there is much uncertainty about the Slavic tradition, as before the advent of christianity the slavic people were largely illiterate(their Runes were far less of an alphabet than say the Norse). The "sacred" book of most slavic reconstructionalists is the "Book of Veles" I am sure it can be found online in any slavic language, and probably english.

--Peace
---Plastic

dont forget baba yaga witch who lives in a hut supported by crows feet.

Originally Posted by Plastic-Saint

The "sacred" book of most slavic reconstructionalists is the "Book of Veles" I am sure it can be found online in any slavic language, and probably english.

The "Book of Veles" is a modern fake of present day cuckoo "heathens".

I love our pre-christian history and I read some scholar book on the Slavic Heathenism.
Академик Б.А. Рыбаков "Язычество древних славян", "Язычество древней Руси" - that's the best. I don't know if those books were translated to English.

There are two "central" gods in the creation story, a light and a dark, Belobog and Chernobog, respectively.

But, when you say gods, do you actually mean that they are idolized? I don't exactly know just how much direct spiritual reference heathensim uses. I know that they celebrate the elements, so why not dark and light. But do they, apparently, refer to Belobog and Chernobog in an idoatry manner in daily life? Or is it merely akin to us using the words night and day, albeit in a more spiritual and intensive conversation than just saying "it's day-time now"? I'm unsure whether heathens refer to light and dark unless the issue comes up, or unless it's on a special day set aside for the ritual. I didn't think heathens refered to any 'Gods', per se. If they do, that would certainly make obselete the dictionary definition for 'heathen', which suggests that it means 'unspiritual'.

(I don't know how much sense I just made, as I'm a little muddled because I just woke up ).

Chernobog and Belobog are a good example of "кабинетного мифотворчества".

Chernobog is mentioned in Baltic "Славянской хронике" of XII th century. Belobog was reconstructed as a contraposition to Chernobog and because of some toponymic names.

In any case there were no Chernobog and Belobog in Eastern Slavic Heathenism.

Originally Posted by brett

I didn't think heathens refered to any 'Gods', per se. If they do, that would certainly make obselete the dictionary definition for 'heathen', which suggests that it means 'unspiritual'..

@brett
heathen is a term used by most reconstructionalist groups, they use it to seperate themselves from the "pagans"(read: wiccans)... so no, you cannot use the dictionary definition of "unspiritual". I really don't know very much about the slavic tradition(as i tried to say) just putting in what little I know about, and even that is muddled with years between now and when i looked at it. Google is a wonderful way to find reconstructionalist groups, so you can get information from people actually trying to practice this path.

@N: I take references from "modern cuckoo heathens" because guess what? it is better than the crap the christian missionaries wrote down. I'm sorry but I dislike seeing the recon movement, of any tradition, being insulted...please refrain.

--Plastic

Originally Posted by Plastic-Saint

@N: I take references from "modern cuckoo heathens" because guess what? it is better than the cr@p the christian missionaries wrote down. I'm sorry but I dislike seeing the recon movement, of any tradition, being insulted...please refrain.

You read me wrong. I wrote "heathens" not heathens.* I mean I have no respect to falsificators either they are christians or heathens. No insults to any religious commitment. If those heathens develop theirs new religion - I respect them. But when they (maybe from the best motives) invent something and claim that that were what our ancestors believe - I strongly disagree.

Because guess what? It's history of my native land I don't whant it to be forged. I respect researcers who punctilious study the subject not those who make up a story.

PS: I don't love the way Christianity was planted on our soil. I regret that so many historical info contained in the ancient mythology irreparably lost. But all those fakes don't help us learn the real story.

PSS: * - Explanatory note. Probably I was using the quotation-marks wrongly. But in Russian if someone wrote он "честный" человек - it means just the opposite i.e он нечестный человек.

Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heathens or heathen
1 : an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible
2 : an uncivilized or irreligious person
- hea·then·dom /-d&m/ noun
- hea·then·ism /-[th]&-"ni-z&m/ noun
- hea·then·ize /-[th]&-"nIz/ transitive verb

Originally Posted by N

You read me wrong. I wrote "heathens" not heathens.* I mean I have no respect to falsificators either they are christians or heathens. No insults to any religious commitment. If those heathens develop theirs new religion - I respect them. But when they (maybe from the best motives) invent something and claim that that were what our ancestors believe - I strongly disagree.

Because guess what? It's history of my native land I don't whant it to be forged. I respect researcers who punctilious study the subject not those who make up a story.

PS: I don't love the way Christianity was planted on our soil. I regret that so many historical info contained in the ancient mythology irreparably lost. But all those fakes don't help us learn the real story.

PSS: * - Explanatory note. Probably I was using the quotation-marks wrongly. But in Russian if someone wrote он "честный" человек - it means just the opposite i.e он нечестный человек.

I apologise, sorry, I thought you were insulting them, and actually if you say the book of veles is a falsification(many "newly discovered" books are) I will believe you and not refer to it when/if asked about the slavic tradition unless I find evidence to the contrary.

Originally Posted by DDT

1 : an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible

I didn't know that was one of the dictionary definitions(otherwise I wouldnt say ignore the dictionary definition). Good deal.

--Plastic

Just to expand on the true definition of the word 'heathen', so that the Slavic equivalent to that word can be explored;

In Swedish, the word is 'Hedning'. hed= heath (field), ning= denotes 'person/thing of....(hed).

Now, my theories-
The real meaning of a 'hedning' or 'heathen' has absolutely nothing to do with religion. It is a reference to location. A person of the heath is merely someone who lives awy from town and church. Christians implied a derogatory sense to someone who doesn't attend church, nor live in a civilized manner. 'Civilized' is yet another example of modernity perverting a legitimate defintion. You all probably already know, 'civilized' merely means that one has settled one location, building a city for all seasons, as opposed to moving when the winter comes along. (I think this is common knowledge amongst you guys, because you're linguists. Only people who don't pursue languages may not know this ).

I didn't think using the Swedish example would be irelevant, given that the definition of 'heathen' is being debated. And, Christians are Germanic. So, I thought it'd be appropriate.

Now my question. Do the Slavic languages have words for 'heathen'? And if so, do they have an innocent meaning such as 'person who lives in the wilderness, outside of the city, and away from the Christian church' etc.?

*DDT. Your dictionary is much, shall I say, sweeter lol, in it's definition than some. Though, probably all dictionaries since the 1990's have gotten rid of the blatantly incorrect and the propogandist (often inadvertent) definitions of earlier decades.

You may try lookong up the word "infidel" when trying to find the meaning of heathen since "heathen" is often a translation of a Hebrew word meaning the same. Normaly I woud be able to do this but I do not have my books with me.

Как ныне сбирается вещий Олег - Oleg (Helge), first knaz' of Kiev (he was Varagian)
Отмстить неразумным хозарам, - khazars - a nation that confessed Judaism
Их села и нивы за буйный набег
Обрек он мечам и пожарам;
С дружиной своей, в цареградской броне, - Constantinople armor
Князь по полю едет на верном коне.

Из темного леса навстречу ему
Идёт вдохновенный кудесник,
Покорный Перуну старик одному, - Perun - supreme slavic god
Заветов грядущего вестник,
В мольбах и гаданьях проведший весь век.
И к мудрому старцу подъехал Олег.

«Скажи мне, кудесник, любимец богов,
Что сбудется в жизни со мною?
И скоро ль, на радость соседей-врагов,
Могильной засыплюсь землёю?
Открой мне всю правду, не бойся меня:
В награду любого возьмешь ты коня».

«Волхвы не боятся могучих владык,
А княжеский дар им не нужен;
Правдив и свободен их вещий язык
И с волей небесною дружен.
Грядущие годы таятся во мгле;
Но вижу твой жребий на светлом челе.

Запомни же ныне ты слово мое:
Воителю слава — отрада;
Победой прославлено имя твое;
Твой щит на вратах Цареграда; - The shield of Oleg was on the portal of Contantinople as a sign of victory.
И волны и суша покорны тебе;
Завидует недруг столь дивной судьбе.

И синего моря обманчивый вал
В часы роковой непогоды,
И пращ, и стрела, и лукавый кинжал
Щадят победителя годы...
Под грозной броней ты не ведаешь ран;
Незримый хранитель могущему дан.

Твой конь не боится опасных трудов;
Он, чуя господскую волю,
То смирный стоит под стрелами врагов,
То мчится по бранному полю.
И холод и сеча ему ничего...
Но примешь ты смерть от коня своего».

Олег усмехнулся — однако чело
И взор омрачилися думой.
В молчаньи, рукой опершись на седло,
С коня он слезает, угрюмый;
И верного друга прощальной рукой
И гладит и треплет по шее крутой.

«Прощай, мой товарищ, мой верный слуга,
Расстаться настало нам время;
Теперь отдыхай! уж не ступит нога
В твое позлащенное стремя.
Прощай, утешайся — да помни меня.
Вы, отроки-други, возьмите коня,

Покройте попоной, мохнатым ковром;
В мой луг под уздцы отведите;
Купайте; кормите отборным зерном;
Водой ключевою поите».
И отроки тотчас с конем отошли,
А князю другого коня подвели.

Пирует с дружиною вещий Олег
При звоне веселом стакана.
И кудри их белы, как утренний снег
Над славной главою кургана...
Они поминают минувшие дни
И битвы, где вместе рубились они...

«А где мой товарищ? — промолвил Олег, —
Скажите, где конь мой ретивый?
Здоров ли? все так же ль легок его бег?
Все тот же ль он бурный, игривый?»
И внемлет ответу: на холме крутом
Давно уж почил непробудным он сном.

Могучий Олег головою поник
И думает: «Что же гаданье?
Кудесник, ты лживый, безумный старик!
Презреть бы твое предсказанье!
Мой конь и доныне носил бы меня».
И хочет увидеть он кости коня.

Вот едет могучий Олег со двора,
С ним Игорь и старые гости,
И видят — на холме, у брега Днепра,
Лежат благородные кости;
Их моют дожди, засыпает их пыль,
И ветер волнует над ними ковыль.

Князь тихо на череп коня наступил
И молвил: «Спи, друг одинокой!
Твой старый хозяин тебя пережил:
На тризне, уже недалекой,
Не ты под секирой ковыль обагришь
И жаркою кровью мой прах напоишь!

Так вот где таилась погибель моя!
Мне смертию кость угрожала!»
Из мертвой главы гробовая змия,
Шипя, между тем выползала;
Как черная лента, вкруг ног обвилась,
И вскрикнул внезапно ужаленный князь.

Ковши круговые, запенясь, шипят
На тризне плачевной Олега;
Князь Игорь и Ольга на холме сидят;
Дружина пирует у брега;
Бойцы поминают минувшие дни
И битвы, где вместе рубились они.