Thread: USA government gone rogue (well... not exactly. L.)

Originally Posted by Hanna

UhOx - you were just a small kid when that happened.
Aghanistan is a totally backwards and very poor country. The majority of the population cannot read, and they live on a dollar a day or something like that. They couldn't find the US on a map, and alone, they couldn't hurt any country because they are too primitive.
The nation of Afghanistan had nothing at all to do with 9-11.
Bin Laden had set up shop there because it offered him asylum after he fell out with his royal family in Saudi.
Truth is, we don't really know too much about him, other than that he hated both the USSR, and then later the USA. USSR because of the invasion of Afghanistan, and the anti-religious stance of the state there, and the USA because it soiled the "holy land" with its bases and is generally corrupt and decadent, from an islamic perspective. There was talk that he had set up "terrorist schools" in Afghanistan. Interesting, because nobody has come across any terrorist trained at a terrorist school. The ones that have caused trouble in the UK and elsewhere in Europe are homegrown. Likewise the Tsarnaev brothers. So what happened with the "graduates" of these schools. I think it's largely hype. People have better things to do with their lives than go to "terrorist schools. "
Probably it was nothing more than a religious school that sometimes ranted on a bit against the West, and with some military training because lots of guys enjoy to run around and pretend its a war.
At the same time, Bin Laden had activities in Sudan, at home in Saudi and in Pakistan.
Yet, Afghanistan was singled out.
Because the US already knew it wanted to take down the taliban and invade the area. It had wanted it from the minute the USSR left.
and that's well documented.
Muslim hospitality is regulated in the Koran. They MUST religiously protect their "moslem brethren".
So they could not stay true to their faith, and hand over Bin Laden. The country is so primitive and poorly organised that they probabably didn't even know for sure that he was there! I vaguely recall this from the papers at the time.
The USA had wanted to invade Afghanistan since long before 9-11 and there is plenty of documentation on it.
If the US didn't keep military bases in Saudi Arabia, 9/11 would never have happened. Can anyone give a legitimate reason why US needs bases there, when it's a friendly nation and located on the other side of the globe from the US? Oh yes, they are there to support even more unnecessary bases elsewhere in the region, and illegal invasions.
The attacks were a tragedy, but frankly it's surprising there haven't been more of them, considering how the US network of bases spreads like a spider web across the globe.
9-11 was EXACTLY the type of excuse they wanted. There was a vague link between Bin Laden and Afghanistan, namely that Bin Laden sometimes stayed there.. But as it turned out later, he also had residence in a nice suburban villa in Pakistan, and that's where he was while the US was wreaking havoc with civilians in Afghanistan!
If Bin Laden wanted more supporters to his cause, the US invasion in Afghanistan was a god-send.
For every person that was killed by the US, a whole family from mothers to brothers and fathers were radicalised.
I understand that this is partly what happened for the USSR which went in to protect some elected Communist government (?). But in doing so, people got killed and the tides turned against them and fuelled radicalism. I was too young at the time, but later I remember people commenting on the hypocrisy that my gov't still hated the USA for Vietnam, yet said nothing about the USSR in Afghanistan. Oh the irony, how tides have turned! Today, I can see that those two conflicts were probably quite different and can't really be compared. For one, Afghanistan bordered the USSR.

The US agenda is proven by the fact that the US is now INSISTING (and won't take no for an answer) that they keep a military presence in Afghanistan. That's what the US wanted all along, and Bin-Laden + 9/11 was just a convienient excuse to kick off the plan. Which is totally absurd since it's on the other side of the planet from the USA and nothing that anyone did there could threaten the US in the slightest.

The only American politician I somewhat respect, is Ron Paul and he knows very well all of what I just said.

His royal family? I thought Osama Bin Laden was an Afghan but if Afghanistan was really primitive then yeah, that doesn't add up. Anyway, that's a lot I didn't know about all that. So he was really from Saudi Arabia but he was hiding from his family in Afghanistan? Did his family try to arrest him after he attacked America? That's a really confusing war. I need to learn a lot more about it.

Originally Posted by eisenherz

@ UhOhxplode
your preference is entirely your choice;
nevertheless, interesting that the one very government (US), whose foreign policy you have been criticising quite voacally here, still rates with you amongst the 2 best governments in the world.

Would you stop liking your country just because the foreign policy was messed up? That would be like not liking your desktop PC just because it didn't have a really sick case. Just buy a cool case for it... problem solved! Yeah the foreign policy thing is part of my country but only one part. Most of my country isn't all about foreign policy. It's about a ton of other stuff and mostly cool stuff.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

I'm not an expert, but it looks like there is no normal border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, so Taliban could function freely on territories of both states. Pakistani government struggled with them and did not allow to control entire country, but Afghani authorities could not, and Taliban took over. So it seems more correct to say "war against Taliban", than "war against Afghanistan".

Thanks for that! I don't know very much about the Taliban and I definitely didn't know that they considered Afghanistan and Pakistan to be just one country.

Originally Posted by diogen_

That’s really cool. Now I seem to know where are you coming from, and we can come back to our “axis of evil” issues, if you don’t mind.
You wrote:
I tend to agree with your to some extent about Iran but not about North Korea. Osama bin Laden used to be friendly with the USA during the war with the Soviet Uninon and than turned his back to the former ally. Hence, friendliness is just a temporary characteristic of a person rather than something permanent and can evaporate anytime.
We know also that North Korea possesses some rudimentary nukes and it is actively trying to develop means of its delivery. Thus,
North Korea and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hence, I’m asking myself, why do they need these nukes and means of its delivery in the first place. They’re certainly doomed to be defeated in any open armed conflict with the USA right of the bat, with all their stockpile being destroyed within first few hours of the war. The only reason that comes to my mind is that they want to be ready to perpetrate a terrorist attack in the same way as it was done by mad Arabs on 9-11, i.e. without any particular reason just because of their perverted nature, for example, in order to annihilate the main “class enemy” and die as “heroes” afterwards. So, I’m wondering maybe it’s better for the USA to press even harder on these commies and destroy their capacity to harm the USA long before they will be able to commit any heinous act of crime. Thoughts.

I have lots of thoughts about that. I'm hoping Russia can derail North Korea's nuclear program but if that can't happen then I still say this:
I support the war on terror, drone strikes, and the NSA... and that war on terror includes Kim Jong-Un and all the other terrorists in the North Korean government. North Koreans should listen to K-Pop, NOT Kim Jong-Un! Nobody should ever listen to Kim Jong Nutjobs!

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I have lots of thoughts about that. I'm hoping Russia can derail North Korea's nuclear program but if that can't happen then I still say this:
I support the war on terror, drone strikes, and the NSA... and that war on terror includes Kim Jong-Un and all the other terrorists in the North Korean government. North Koreans should listen to K-Pop, NOT Kim Jong-Un! Nobody should ever listen to Kim Jong Nutjobs!

I don't think you'd say that, if you actually knew about the history of North Korea. And K-pop "sucks".
I challenge you to dig out the other side of the story on that country. You'll be very surprised.

North Koreans are very sweet and gentle, idealistic and proud. And they are smart. Educated people there follow world events. After the Korean war, not a building was left standing in the major cities in North Korea. The US used every (now illegal) weapon under the sun against them. A whole generation grew up as orphans and the 50+ generation when I was there in 1990, ca, was full of cripples. Never seen anything like it.

For me, visiting North Korea was a turning point. I didn't want to go there, nobody cared about it at the time. It was just another socialist country, and they were very low on the cool destinations lists at the time. But my dad couldn't leave my brother and me alone in his flat in a certain other East Asian country where he was working. We were on summer hols from school and our mum was very sick. So we went along and spent almost 3 weeks there.

At the time, it was unlike any other place. I ended up really respecting the people there and what they were trying to achieve. They were taking after the USSR a lot, but they took their ideology seriously, real believers.

Obviously their human rights records leaves a lot to be desired and I think it's right to put strong pressure on them internationally to remedy that. But that is just a fraction of what the country is about. They are a country with a vision. Idealists beyond anything you ever saw.
There is no doubt it's demonized more than any other country. And the picture painted in media about NK is simply not true.

I have not visited Saudi Arabia or sub-Saharan Africa. Only seen it on TV and read about it.
But if the choice was between living in Saudi, sub-Saharan Africa or North Korea, I'd easily pick North Korea for several reasons. Also, North Korea is opening up and the living standards are going up considerably.
I know I will be attacked now, and trolled for presenting an alternative view on this, and perhaps for being heartless or stupid("North Korea has prison camps! You were fooled by propaganda!") But the US has the largest part of its population in prison internationally, and Russia still has labour camps to this day. Personally I prefer the Northern European prison system, but it's not an option for all countries.
So let him whose country is free of sin throw the first stone, huh?

Originally Posted by Hanna

North Koreans are very sweet and gentle, idealistic and proud. And they are smart. Educated people there follow world events. After the Korean war, not a building was left standing in the major cities in North Korea. The US used every (now illegal) weapon under the sun against them. A whole generation grew up as orphans and the 50+ generation when I was there in 1990, ca, was full of cripples. Never seen anything like it.

For me, visiting North Korea was a turning point. I didn't want to go there, nobody cared about it at the time. It was just another socialist country, and they were very low on the cool destinations lists at the time. But my dad couldn't leave my brother and me alone in his flat in a certain other East Asian country where he was working. We were on summer hols from school and our mum was very sick. So we went along and spent almost 3 weeks there.

At the time, it was unlike any other place. I ended up really respecting the people there and what they were trying to achieve. They were taking after the USSR a lot, but they took their ideology seriously, real believers.

Obviously their human rights records leaves a lot to be desired and I think it's right to put strong pressure on them internationally to remedy that. But that is just a fraction of what the country is about. They are a country with a vision. Idealists beyond anything you ever saw.
There is no doubt it's demonized more than any other country. And the picture painted in media about NK is simply not true.

I have not visited Saudi Arabia or sub-Saharan Africa. Only seen it on TV and read about it.
But if the choice was between living in Saudi, sub-Saharan Africa or North Korea, I'd easily pick North Korea for several reasons. Also, North Korea is opening up and the living standards are going up considerably.
I know I will be attacked now, and trolled for presenting an alternative view on this, and perhaps for being heartless or stupid("North Korea has prison camps! You were fooled by propaganda!") But the US has the largest part of its population in prison internationally, and Russia still has labour camps to this day. Personally I prefer the Northern European prison system, but it's not an option for all countries.
So let him whose country is free of sin throw the first stone, huh?

NK is just a big nazi concentration camp. They still have that ideology that goes from Mao's cultural revolution in china, but north-koreans had added to it their juche-songun ideas. There was nothing like that in the USSR.

What about russian labor camps, ppl usually prefer to go there then to stay in prison cells. And I don't think the US system of private prisons is ever better then any labor camps.

North europain prison system is good (but the problem is that in europe is amazing level of mass media censorship so i'm afraid we don't know much about it). But the best prisons are in japan and singapore i think.


Северная Корея. Часть I
Северная Корея. Часть II
Северная Корея. Часть III
Северная Корея. Часть IV
http://juche-songun.livejournal.com/

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

NK is just a big nazi concentration camp. They still have that ideology that goes from Mao's cultural revolution in china, but north-koreans had added to it their juche-songun ideas. There was nothing like that in the USSR.

What about russian labor camps, ppl usually prefer to go there then to stay in prison cells. And I don't think the US system of private prisons is ever better then any labor camps.

North europain prison system is good (but the problem is that in europe is amazing level of mass media censorship so i'm afraid we don't know much about it). But the best prisons are in japan and singapore i think.


http://juche-songun.livejournal.com/

I took this one from your last link (in bold), and that's just mind-blowing! --> http://juche-songun.livejournal.com/571833.html

По словам Министра Обороны Донецкой Народной Республики Игоря Ивановича Стрелкова-Гиркина при обороне Семеновки, его войска активно используют опыт Северной Кореи.

I wonder:

1. If that has anything to do with truth in the very first place
2. If the answer to question #1 is yes, then if that separatist chief has any links to the official Russian government
3. If the answers to questions ##1&2 are both yes, how your country can even live with that (I sincerely hope, however, that they aren't both yes)
4. If the answer to question #1 is yes, and regardless of what the answer to question #2 is, if your country still thinks that putting down an armed threat that has records of cooperation with world terrorists from the axis of evil list is a bad idea?...

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I took this one from your last link (in bold), and that's just mind-blowing! --> juche_songun: Тактика "Тоннельного боя", разработанная Ким Ир Сеном, широко используется войсками ДН

По словам Министра Обороны Донецкой Народной Республики Игоря Ивановича Стрелкова-Гиркина при обороне Семеновки, его войска активно используют опыт Северной Кореи.

I wonder:

1. If that has anything to do with truth in the very first place
2. If the answer to question #1 is yes, then if that separatist chief has any links to the official Russian government
3. If the answers to questions ##1&2 are both yes, how your country can even live with that (I sincerely hope, however, that they aren't both yes)
4. If the answer to question #1 is yes, and regardless of what the answer to question #2 is, if your country still thinks that putting down an armed threat that has records of cooperation with world terrorists from the axis of evil list is a bad idea?...

Now, when i finally stopped loughing, and before i say anything in response to your mind blowing post. Could you kindli answer one question - what logic did you use that would lead you from
По словам Министра Обороны Донецкой Народной Республики Игоря Ивановича Стрелкова-Гиркина при обороне Семеновки, его войска активно используют опыт Северной Кореи.
to
is yes, then if that separatist chief has any links to the official Russian government?

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

Now, when i finally stopped loughing, and before i say anything in response to your mind blowing post. Could you kindli answer one question - what logic did you use that would lead you from
По словам Министра Обороны Донецкой Народной Республики Игоря Ивановича Стрелкова-Гиркина при обороне Семеновки, его войска активно используют опыт Северной Кореи.
to
is yes, then if that separatist chief has any links to the official Russian government?

Those 2 are totally unrelated questions (##1 & 2), I just happen to be curious about the answers to both of them. That bold quote #2 doesn't conclude from the first one at all, I agree.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Those 2 are totally unrelated questions (##1 & 2), I just happen to be curious about the answers to both of them. That bold quote #2 doesn't conclude from the first one at all, I agree.

I still can't understand (and therefore i don't know how to reply)

you say

If the answer to question #1 is yes, then
and
Those 2 are totally unrelated questions (##1 & 2)
now your logic is totally beyond my comprehension.