Thread: Is there such a thing as a "Vagabond Law" ? - Plea

Originally Posted by JB

Dobry, I'm not quite sure why you are offended.

Because I sense not a light-hearted joking-around about foreign men's attitudes or 'fantasies'....but a loathing of any foreign man who is dating or wants to date a Russian woman, is married or has been married to a Russian. You're stereotyping as well.

You're being insensitive and unkind toward foreign male/ Russian female relationships in general, and fueling stereotypes about any foreign man. Of which I am one. You are stereotyping me, and you know little about me.

My female friends would probably say to you that sure, some men are like that stereotype, but many are not...and that you're clueless about the hearts of those who are not, so stop making broad generalizations.

I could make similar unkind generalizations and stereotype foreign women/ Russian male relationships that I think you would find equally offensive.

That's why I'm offended.

It takes a lot of work to offend me. Stereotypes about Russian men married to American women are not in the least bothersome.

Lighthearted joking about a guy's unrealistic Russian Woman fantasies is OK if the guy realizes they are just fantasies, but if he really believes them I'm afraid he's going to have to get used to scorn.

The only topic of this thread so far has been love scams and not foreign male/Russian female relationships in general,so I have no idea why you think any of my comments pertain to you unless of course you are also involved in an Russian internet romance.

Bear with me please, long post...I AM trying to resolve this in a pleasant way.

Originally Posted by JB

It takes a lot of work to offend me. Stereotypes about Russian men married to American women are not in the least bothersome.

Not trying to offend, I have no desire to...but I thought you were trying to offend me.

Originally Posted by JB

Lighthearted joking about a guy's unrealistic Russian Woman fantasies is OK if the guy realizes they are just fantasies, but if he really believes them I'm afraid he's going to have to get used to scorn.

Well, you misread my ongoing point. But you admit then that you felt scorn for this guy. I don't feel scorn...I feel sorry for him. And you're passing big broad stereotyped judgments on this guy's personality and character, and his suitability to marry a Russian woman, just from a few lines his buddy wrote?? That's pretty harsh...and that's stereotyping. You don't know this guy...how can you judge him?? He may be a really great guy, симпатичный, but very lonely and sad, but has simply made a few bonehead moves...does that preclude him from trying to find someone to love in Russia?

I wax romantic...but that's who I am, a dreamer and a romantic, and I feel for this guy. I don't think you do. Not sure you understand him. Maybe you haven't been through a divorce, and I truly hope you never do...but I don't wish that pain on anybody and I know very well how it is.

Reminds me of Atticus Finch telling his daughter Scout, "sometimes you've just gotta put on other people's shoes, and walk around in them awhile." From "To Kill a Mockingbird".

So, I understand where this guy is coming from. Again, I think you gave sound advice, but then you added discouragement, basically that he doesn't belong in Russia...that he is a fool, and will quickly be killed or have his clock cleaned.

Originally Posted by JB

The only topic of this thread so far has been love scams and not foreign male/Russian female relationships in general,so I have no idea why you think any of my comments pertain to you unless of course you are also involved in an Russian internet romance.

Nooo...that's how the thread began, and then unfortunately it has degenerated into Russian women, foreign men, "attitudes and fantasies of foreign men", their relationships and so forth. And we are both to blame for that.

I think you were triggered by my joking comments about Russian women being able to adeptly detect scams, and the "5 minute phone call"...which actually came from a simple piece of advice that I passed on to this guy in an email. I gave him contact info for a woman in my circle of friends that is a social psychologist, and actually has done a lot of academic research on the integration of Americans into Russia and its culture. Part of that research naturally involved American men developing relationships with women in Russia. She is highly experienced at interviewing. I thought, as a favor to me, she could call this woman, talk to her, and might be able to quickly figure this woman's game...whether or not this is a sincere, or real, woman.

For whatever reason, you decided to bring the hammer down on me for those comments and my suggestion to this guy. Then I came back at you about "dangerous Russia"...BTW, good thread you started.

Then we got into it over whether all woman are able to detect scams. Why this triggered a raw nerve with you, I don't know.

Perhaps...because I was making a similar generalization about women, as you have made about foreign men.

My point was that I do think, generally, a native person (male or female) is better outfitted to "read" another native. That's great if you're multicultural...most people aren't. And I would never presume that I could go to China and understand all the nuances, non-verbal language, idiosyncrasies, and so on as well as a native Chinese. If you can, hey thumbs up for you.

So, we have been jousting back and forth now, with no common ground and nothing being accomplished. Simply because I also was trying to help this guy by putting him in touch with a friend of mine that I thought could help him. And it has degenerated into a rather unpleasant posting between the two of us.

The offense I felt was due to my perception that you were "man-bashing" foreigners dating or marrying Russian women. That foreigners should stay away from FSU women.

And honestly, I must confess a raw nerve because of a rather unpleasant situation that developed last night in an intercambio here in Madrid, with a group of Spaniards who decided it was high-time to bring the hammer down on Americans, our culture, Bush, etc. and how Americans are to blame for pretty much everything wrong now in the world. I get bashed a lot in my travels, simply for being an American (stereotypes!!!) and I'm so tired of it, especially when I don't bash other cultures...and I felt a bashing from you yesterday and today against American men. So, it tipped the scales, and touched off a raw nerve.

Oh, and no...you quickly forgot my earlier post...my girlfriend and I were introduced by mutual friends in Petersburg on one of my trips there. If you want to call it an "internet romance" because we communicate on the internet, then I guess that is true, albeit a bit misleading and backhanded. (shrugs) Same with my ex-wife, but many years ago, soon after the collapse.

Anyway, not sure how to resolve this...but I'm bruised, bloody and tired.
May we agree to shake hands, and agree to disagree? And I'll go lick my wounds.

Originally Posted by Dobry

So, we have been jousting back and forth now, with no common ground and nothing being accomplished.

Er....excuse me..... (knocks on head).........that's because you are arguing with a woman. Hello!

....(and you're not even married to her)....

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by Dobry

So, we have been jousting back and forth now, with no common ground and nothing being accomplished.

Er....excuse me..... (knocks on head).........that's because you are arguing with a woman. Hello!

....(and you're not even married to her)....

Sorry Dobry, I know that was a cheap shot.

Actually I secretly wanted to get a "dig" at the lovely cowgirl JB.

And finishing on an optimistic note: all foreign male fantasies and stereotypes about russian women are true because they are based on life. Many of them are beautiful, they are obedient, never have a "headache", and overall they make great wives. Particularly those who know when to shut up.

Originally Posted by adoc

Particularly those who know when to shut up.

DDT; I like my men macho and with a good wit, ready to do some verbal battle. Keep it up!

adoc; sorry, but this line is a leftover from the anti feminist rantings of the 1960's (yawn)..

Dobry; it's time to toughen you up for your life in St.P. I'm not doing this to be mean, but as a fellow American I feel obligated to give you a heads up.

a) most of the world HATES Americans now (send all thank you cards to Mr. G Bush)

b) you will hear all sorts of American bashing at the Russian water cooler, on Russian TV, on Russian radio talk shows and even from your friends who will consider it truth and not bashing.

c) Russian women have unrealistic fantasies/stereotypes of YOU.

So American guys, are you rich? have no vices (never drink too much, never cheat), do you own a big house and several expensive cars? Do you plan to not only work full time at a high power 6 figure income job then come home with a big smile and bouquet of roses at which point your wife can relax while you finish up the housework and take care of the kids? Are you going to tell your Russian bride that she never has to work outside the home because her job is to use your credit card to keep herself well dressed and beautiful for you?

These are all true beliefs of many of my Russian girlfriends who are nice, honest and would never trick or scam men, but are really interested in a loving marriage with a foreigner. They just have an unrealistic stereotype.

Originally Posted by JB

So American guys, are you rich? have no vices (never drink too much, never cheat), do you own a big house and several expensive cars? Do you plan to not only work full time at a high power 6 figure income job then come home with a big smile and bouquet of roses at which point your wife can relax while you finish up the housework and take care of the kids? Are you going to tell your Russian bride that she never has to work outside the home because her job is to use your credit card to keep herself well dressed and beautiful for you?

These are all true beliefs of many of my Russian girlfriends who are nice, honest and would never trick or scam men, but are really interested in a loving marriage with a foreigner. They just have an unrealistic stereotype.

You just described me to the spot! If you know of any girls with these fantasies, please send them this way. Oh, and if I fullfill their fantasies, they would have to fill mine too, of course!

Her name is Katya, 24yrs old, 5ft 10inches tall, good figure, blond blue eyed, 2 university degrees. English=fair to poor. Honest, kind, Russian Orthodox, loves dogs and cats, no smoking, drinking only small amounts on special occasions.

And you?

Don't be shy

Originally Posted by JB

adoc; sorry, but this line is a leftover from the anti feminist rantings of the 1960's (yawn)..

sorry but double yawn it is. Keep up the friendship with your russian girlfriends, that'll help a lot some day.

You kidding me!? I live in the bay area, gal, I would need a 7 figure income to own a house! However, I DO have a pet robot vacuumcleaner named Dusty. Does that count? I guess a hybrid counts as an expensive car?

Originally Posted by JB

Dobry; it's time to toughen you up for your life in St.P. I'm not doing this to be mean, but as a fellow American I feel obligated to give you a heads up.

a) most of the world HATES Americans now (send all thank you cards to Mr. G Bush)

b) you will hear all sorts of American bashing at the Russian water cooler, on Russian TV, on Russian radio talk shows and even from your friends who will consider it truth and not bashing.

c) Russian women have unrealistic fantasies/stereotypes of YOU.

.

Hehe, thanks for the advice. No problem. I've been around the block more than once, and lived in situations and under conditions you never want to know, and I would never wish on you. Petersburg will be fine, no worry on my end. I've lived both there and Moscow.

The American bashing I've been dealing with for many years, including from my closest friends in Russia...it's just that the last few days I was in a pretty sensitive mood as an American expat. Normally, I slough it all off and it doesn't bother me. And frankly, I routinely bash the Administration myself. For me, just the wrong place at the wrong time, with the wrong things being said last night.

But I do appreciate your concern. It's from your heart, and it's kind. Spacibo, JB.

Dobry, I know it's hard but don't let the American bashers and scammers get to you. (Of course I was ready to bash some heads when I couldn't go 5 minutes without hearing how America was cheating and had "fixed" the last Olympics). And any time you reach your limit just recite this mantra;

jumbo Maytag washers, Maytag dryers, home repair service, 24hour on call plumbers, free plastic bags, free (fast food) napkins-salt-catsup, safe roads, friendly customer service, no bribes, hot water 24/7 365 days a year, home delivery for everything (and sometimes it's free!), clean water straight from the tap, cops that actually do serve and protect the public, free and clean public toilets that have paper and soap, most items purchased at most stores are returnable for full refund, .... (now add anything else that will make you smile and feel sorry for the shmucks who don't have the option of going back to this).