Thread: Pope is dead

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by kwatts59

Saint Peter was pope from 32AD through 67AD. There is some debate on whether or not he is really the first pope.

‘Pope” would not have been his title. He was not catholic.

OK, just let these guys know http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Originally Posted by DDT

Then how many deaths (and assuredly they were in the many millions) do you find acceptable to be murdered by popes?

I agree many have died due to persecution, maybe many millions. Even one death by anyone is not acceptable. I was just saying that the article was rubbish. You can't just subtract two numbers and attribute the resulting death toll to one thing. Where does he get the numbers for the world population, and where did he get those crazy growth rate figures?

Originally Posted by DDT

You should care because if your religion is spreading lies, you should step out of it.

I would rather call them opinions than lies. You are free to believe whatever you want.

Originally Posted by DDT

I don’t think that he wanted to spread AIDS but his false doctrine caused the epidemic to become far worse.

Personally I don't think the Pope had anything to do with worsening of the AIDS epidemic. I think the Pope is just a scapegoat here.

Originally Posted by DDT

Why is anyone still catholic? Because they refuse to give up their man made traditions. Sad.

Why is there religion?

Pope JP II's reason for not having women priests: "Jesus didn't have women disciples."

Jesus didn't have any Polish disciples either.

The Catholic church is stuck in the past, they are anti-change, anti-progression. It was founded in a time when women were seen as inferior and to men, so logically they would have forbidden women priests then. But now when men and women are equal, surely there isn't a reason why women shouldn't be priests?
The Vatican decided artificial contraception was a sin in 1961. It doesn't say so in the bible, basically a group of old men who haven't had sex for years and years decided it in Rome.

Also, God doesn't exist, so.... :P

Taty, you said in an earlier post that "Pope John Paul II chose to be pope knowing the corruption but still acclaiming the church's 'infallibility' ( meaning his belief that the church is incapable of making a mistake). " I disagree with this as JPII even went as far as to admit the churches falibility regarding the crusades and the churches silence during Hitler's reign.
I also think one of the great qualities of humankind is our creation of "man made traditions" I enjoy all of my man made traditions whether it is in the form of religion or even state holidays. I don't consider that "sad" or even pathetic in any way.

Originally Posted by kwatts59

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by kwatts59

Saint Peter was pope from 32AD through 67AD. There is some debate on whether or not he is really the first pope.

‘Pope” would not have been his title. He was not catholic.

OK, just let these guys know http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Your quote was from a catholic site. I am well aware of their outrageous claim that Peter was one of theirs. History doesn’t see it that way though. Anyway Jesus is head of the church. Not Peter nor any pope.

Originally Posted by kwatts59

Originally Posted by DDT

You should care because if your religion is spreading lies, you should step out of it.

I would rather call them opinions than lies. You are free to believe whatever you want.

If they were only opinions I would not bother with all this. Here are a few of the lies.
1 Priests can forgive sin.
2 Mary ascended
3 The pope is Gods representative on earth.

You wont find any of that in scripture. Look!

However, here is what the Vatican says.:-

21."""""""" "We confess that whatsoever new thing the pope of Rome may have instituted, whether it be in Scripture, or out of Scripture, is true, divine, and salvific;and, therefore, ought to be regarded as of higher value by lay people than the precepts of the Living God...We confess that the Pope has the power of altering Scriptures, or increasing and diminishing it, according to his will...We confess that the Holy Scripture is imperfect and a dead letter, until it is explained by the Supreme Pontiff and permitted by him to be read by lay people." (Confessio Romano--Catholica, Articles IV, I, and XXI)."""""""""""


Pope has the power of altering Scriptures Did you get that??
Why are you still catholic? ……Tradition I suspect.

This is what God says about Tradition.:-


Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...
And he said unto them, Full well YE REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, THAT YE MAY KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION.
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:5-9, 13

This is what the pope says:-

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, #82, "...Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."
The Question Box Column, Brooklyn Tablet, Nov. 8, 1958, teaches, “Tradition as a source of Faith would suffice without Scripture”

So the pope says that tradition is as good as scripture. Well we have already seen that that is not Biblical........oh I for got..the pope fixed that when he said that he has the authority to change scripture....silly me!

And that was for you too Pokey!

It is time for you to do some serious research.

Did Jesus appoint a multi-billion dollar organization to be boss? I don’t think so. Look how much money has been spent on the popes funeral. Look at all the statesmen and world leaders that have showed up for this spectacle. They are still taking about it as I type. Do you really think that this was Gods idea. And in contrast, now look at how Jesus died. It is quite plain that God is not in the Vatican.

Originally Posted by Pokey

Taty, you said in an earlier post that "Pope John Paul II chose to be pope knowing the corruption

Taty never said that, I did.

800 babies born to nuns? Is this just Catholic nuns or does it include Russian Orthodox nuns too? (and don't forget the Serb, Greek, and Armenian Orthodox nuns)

I stand corrected. I apologize for the attributing DDT's qoute to TATY.

Originally Posted by DDT

If they were only opinions I would not bother with all this. Here are a few of the lies.
1 Priests can forgive sin.
2 Mary ascended
3 The pope is Gods representative on earth.

1. God forgives sins - (though priests perform the cofession)
2. Jesus ascended from the dead (clarify what you mean by Mary ascended)
3. The pope is Gods representative on earth - (I think all Catholics are considered representatives of God)

My choice of words was incorrect. I meant "doctrines" or "beliefs" rather than opinions. These are beliefs of the Catholic church. If you are Catholic, then it is your belief. If you think they are not true and you are not Catholic, then you don't have to believe. Whatever the case, they are not lies.

Anyway, why do you say forgiveness of sins is a lie?
Everybody commits sins. If nobody is forgiven by anybody, then we might as well not exist.

I suggest discussing this with some Catholic priests.

The papacy preaches that Mary ascended (the assumption) to heaven the same way as Jesus and is a co-redeemer. Currently, the church recognizes four Marian dogmas. The most important of these, Mary's divine maternity, was defined by the Council of Ephesus in 431, granting that Mary is rightly called "God-bearer" because she was the mother of Christ. Later dogmas declared Mary's perpetual virginity (649), Immaculate Conception (1854), and Bodily Assumption (1950).
Now none of this is scriptural so why believe it?

Why should I believe that Mary was assumed, I ask? The Catholic almost invariably responds with a variation on the idea that I should believe this because the Church says I should, that I can't understand until I'm within the Church, and that the Church's beliefs have been vindicated over time


The papacy clearly believes that priests are to hear confessions. There is no scriptural authority for this. We can go and should go straight to God for this. The papacy was so corrupt that they even instituted a fee for the abolition of sins. For hundreds of years monks and friars fleeced the people for the forgiveness of their sins. This is well known and part of the reason for the reformation.

Given the situation it is not likely that "all Catholics are representatives of God". More likely to be reps for someone else.

Besides, I present evidence of papal herecies in my posts and you ignore them (such as the popes doctrine that he can change scripture). That should be enough to make any rational mind drop that church like a hot potato. But I suppose that if burning women and children at the stake doesn't bother you nothing will.

Do you think Bush will receive this much attention when he dies?

Uno,
Thank you for the best laugh I have had in a long time!
Pokey

Originally Posted by uno

Do you think Bush will receive this much attention when he dies?

I dunno, but I hope we'll find out soon.

and that does not include the 150,000,000 men women and children killed by popes in the Dark Ages in Europe.

let me tell you, John Paul II actually APOLOGIZED for all of the bad that catholicts have done in the Dark Ages etc.

Masturbation -- the bible says nothing.

and have you ever READ the bible? The Onan story, to be exact?? I think not.
As for the Pope not caring for the pedophile priests, he in fact dismissed more priests than you can imagine.

Anyway,I'm not going to argue with you lot, just wanted to point out some of the statments that were not exactly true.

I myself am a Polish catholic, and you have no idea just how much the Pope meant for all of us. He was not only a religious leader, but also a great person - and that one you cannot deny.

Originally Posted by kamka

and that does not include the 150,000,000 men women and children killed by popes in the Dark Ages in Europe.

let me tell you, John Paul II actually APOLOGIZED for all of the bad that catholicts have done in the Dark Ages etc.

[quote:3am00tcd]Masturbation -- the bible says nothing.

and have you ever READ the bible? The Onan story, to be exact?? I think not.
As for the Pope not caring for the pedophile priests, he in fact dismissed more priests than you can imagine.

Anyway,I'm not going to argue with you lot, just wanted to point out some of the statments that were not exactly true.

I myself am a Polish catholic, and you have no idea just how much the Pope meant for all of us. He was not only a religious leader, but also a great person - and that one you cannot deny.[/quote:3am00tcd]

I can deny that.

I just love Catholic bashing by those who claim they are the desendants of the "real" christians but don't even know the history of Christianity or the history of who put the bible into the form that they love to quote.
The divine maternity of Mary was not a "papal heresy" and the council at Ephesus was not a Roman Catholic affair. The Bishop of Rome didn't even show up. Non-Roman Catholic christians all over the world venerate Mary as Theotokos but none (not even Catholics) worship her as God.
Popes, bishops, ancient historians and modern writers have all been messing with the ancient texts that make up what we call the bible. Go to your local bookstore and see how many choices you have in bibles. But unless you can read and understand (both the language and culture) of the ancient languages the original texts were written in, you are only reading someone else's interpretation.
Now if you want to believe that JP2 was an evil person for his failure to make the Roman Catholic Church organization into what YOU want it to be, or that he should take responsibility for all the sins of the popes before him (are you personally responsible for all the sins of all of your former bosses and companies you worked for?)that's your choice. But I think the guy was genuinely a very good person who did everything in his finite human power to do good in the world.
But the Catholic bashing doesn't prove anything but your ignorance.(I love those old stories about nuns burying their murdered babies in the basement). There are plenty of historical accounts of non-Catholic Christians who tortured and murdered (Salem witch trials) which you should remember before you start out with the old Inquisition ball and chain.

Even if you read the Bible in its original texts it isn't like you're reading the word of your God... the 'holy scripture' was written by men, for men(read:humans not specifically males).

Although I am not Christian, and I don't think of the Bible(or any other holy book) as anything more than mythology(although i do think mythology can teach important lessons). I still was sad when I heard the pope died... just as I will be sad when the Dalai Lama dies....or any other spiritual person I know of dies...

People like the Pope and the Dalai Lama are great people who are closer to 'the divine' than any of us can probably ever hope to be, and even if I don't agree with all of their doctrines, I still think it is very sad when anyone who is that close to 'the divine' passes from this world as they did a great many good things throughout their lives, no matter what path they represent.

--Plastic

((OH yeah...no I don't think theyre somehow inherently better than anyone else, I just think they are able to help more people than most of us would even want to...))

Originally Posted by DDT

The papacy preaches ...

Besides, I present evidence of papal herecies in my posts and you ignore them (such as the popes doctrine that he can change scripture). That should be enough to make any rational mind drop that church like a hot potato. But I suppose that if burning women and children at the stake doesn't bother you nothing will.

This is nonsense. Modern Catholics do not approve of "burning women and children at the stake". Of course there are millions of horrors in the past by both Catholics and non-Catholics. I do not deny them, and I do not ignore them. We should never forget them. What can we do about them? We can only try to llive better lives and be better people than we were. That is what the Catholic church teaches today and I find nothing wrong with that.

I've been reading the entire six pages of this and I can not believe your arguments Kwatt. Do some research.

Originally Posted by kamka

As for the Pope not caring for the pedophile priests, he in fact dismissed more priests than you can imagine.

Actually, he gave promotions. One of the key players now has an important position in Vatican City.

Originally Posted by kamka

and that does not include the 150,000,000 men women and children killed by popes in the Dark Ages in Europe.

let me tell you, John Paul II actually APOLOGIZED for all of the bad that catholicts have done in the Dark Ages etc.

Because that makes it okay.

Originally Posted by kwatts59

As far as abstinence, monogomy and birth control, I don't care. You can rag the Pope all you want on the sexual beliefs. That is your opinion. I just don't like it when people say things like "the Pope wants to spread AIDS because he said don't use condoms". This is just ridiculous.

Who else’s opinion would it be? Condoms stop the spread of STDs. Pope says condoms are a sin, therefore the Pope damns the safeguard against STDs. How is that not spreading AIDS, which is a STD?

I responded to a few of my favirotes. I'll try to get up to pace after this.

Originally Posted by Николай

Who else’s opinion would it be? Condoms stop the spread of STDs. Pope says condoms are a sin, therefore the Pope damns the safeguard against STDs. How is that not spreading AIDS, which is a STD?

Why do people keep saying this?
THREE THINGS! NOT ONE, NOT TWO, BUT ALL THREE!!!
1. No sex before marriage
2. No extramarital sex
3. No condoms
That is the Catholic belief.

If you sleep with as many people as you can and you don't use a condom because the Pope said not to, YOU WILL GET AIDS. Don't blame the Pope, blame yourself for being stupid.

Originally Posted by JB

accounts of non-Catholic Christians

I think you are confused here. Since catholics are not christian by definition.

What do you think this whole debate is really about? All these quotes from the catholic establishment that I have been posting clearly put catholisism outside the bounds of christianity. And yet you or Mr Kwatts have failed to address them. The pope says he can change scripture. Well then he is not christian because scripture says he CAN NOT.