Thread: London terror attack, yo. :O

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by Cyphyr

[

But what really makes me dispair is when I see people in the 21st century in the world's most technologically advanced nation trying to get creationism taught in science class.

You could say the exact same thing about Darwinism.

Darwinism is a science and got a lot of facts to support it.

Creationism is a religion, got no facts to support that, outside of one or 2 books written as you said yourself by humans. By Constitution of US, religion is separeated from state, so creationism should not be taught in state schools.

Oh no Pioner you've got him started again. This thread is never gonna die

Well, I'm staying out of it this time. Just to say, that in Europe there is by and large a consensus among the religious and the non-religious alike that the theory of evolution is the best explanation for the origin of life on earth. It's just not an issue and people of faith don't feel threatened by it. Like Rosa Anna said, they believe that 'God flipped the switch'. The fact that the whole thing is still an issue the other side of the Atlantic is one of those things that makes America look very strange in European eyes.

Cyphyr, you are right, but my biological education forced me to post this, although I already gave up urguing with DDT regarding religion, as he does not listen to any arguments unless they support his point of view.

Problems with teaching Darwinism exists only in Jesusland, which is far from being majority of America (not by size of the states but by population).

Yep, I understand that. It's not an issue for many Americans but there still seems to be a sizeable chunk of the population who have a big problem with it. I remember reading some frightening statistic about the number of people who favoured Creationism over Darwinism. Can't remember exactly what it was but I remember feeling quite shocked at the time when I read it.

Originally Posted by Cyphyr

. Yet they claim they're carrying out these atrocities because of injustices in the Middle East and Africa.

If this was the case, I don't think it would make much sense to hold up the G8 Convention. I feel very sorry for those who live in London. It's sad, and I'm glad nothing worse happened. Whether this has anything to do with the situation in the Middle East or not, I think they still would have done something like this. It is a very poor and barbaric way to speak out against those things you don't agree with.

Originally Posted by Cyphyr

Yep, I understand that. It's not an issue for many Americans but there still seems to be a sizeable chunk of the population who have a big problem with it. I remember reading some frightening statistic about the number of people who favoured Creationism over Darwinism. Can't remember exactly what it was but I remember feeling quite shocked at the time when I read it.

It depends where statistic was collected, if it was in some Jesusland state, the percent can be shocking, if here in California - not as much. And again, here in California there lives about 20% of USA population. Another 15% in NY state, that gives 35% of all. So, if you go nationwide average for USA, I think the difference with Europe will not be that stricking.

Yeah that's right, quit stirring me up. I have't picked on Atheism yet and I need to study Russian.

I'll just say this though. If one has ever really dug into the subject of Evolution and i mean by studying the arguments against it by educated scientists who disagree with the status quo of mainstream science, (which by the way many of sciences best dicoveries have come from outside the mainstream), one would have found many legitmate conscernes over the validities of so called dicoveries that are said to support the Theory of Evolution.

To just dissmiss anyone who disagrees with Evolution as foolish, is foolish in it's self as there are debates on this subject frequently, by some of today's greatest minds in the scientific community.

I will leave you now a link for anyone who is interested in investigating further.
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/index.html

Originally Posted by Dobry

(heavy sigh)

"He who is without guilt may throw the first stone."

This is a fundamental principle of my faith.

Has America done wrong? Yes.
Has Russia done wrong? Yes.
Has Iraq done wrong? Yes.
Has France done wrong Yes.
Has Germany done wrong? Yes.
Has U.K. done wrong? Yes.
Has Spain done wrong? Yes.

...and the list goes on and on.

No nation is clean and blameless. Are you arguing, then, that "terrorists" are justified? No, I don't think this is your argument.

It pains me as an American, living in Europe, to constantly be told.."The U.S. is bad, and deserves to be hurt." Or, "The U.S. has caused most (or all) of the World Problems.

Every nation has blame. And terrorists are evil, in my opinion.

The U.S. is not perfect...and it never will be. But most Americans are normal, nice, kind, and decent people...same as Russians, French, British, Spanish, etc....who do not deserve to be blamed for everything wrong in the world, and all of the problems.

Does anyone here really believe that most Americans sit at home, watching ther children play, or reading a book, or spending time with friends...and also are wishing non-Americans to die, or to suffer tragedies???

Anyone believing that knows very little of the American people.

I agree with Dobriy... it's sickening to constantly hear that Americans are to blame for everything, even if it has nothing to do with us. People need to learn the difference between the average American person and the American government. Or the average Spanish person and the Spanish government. So on and so forth. Many people in the United States are against the coalition forces in Iraq. Not the soldiers themselves, but the cause. Thinking that Americans fully support this is wrong. I'm against war, but what other resort do you really have? Do you really think that Hussein, bin Laden, Zarqawi, or any other extremist leader is going to calmly sit there and discuss things in a civilized way? Any time there is a conflict between Russia, Germany, the US, France, etc, you never see them sending suicide bombers to the opposing country. They have a meeting to discuss things. They may not agree at first, and may leave the meeting in a bitter mood, but they wouldn't send a missile or hijacked planes to kill innocent people.

If there was something accidental on US soil from Russia, for instance, a plane went down, or a missile was accidently sent off, or something else, the US wouldn't retaliate. Differentiating between accidental and intentional are actually very important. Thinking about those things before you act is what keeps a war from developing and prevents one.

Originally Posted by rgkatyaisashaukr

Do you really think that Hussein, bin Laden, Zarqawi, or any other extremist leader is going to calmly sit there and discuss things in a civilized way?

We could have civilized discuss with Hussein in Iraq, but now we got Zarqawi and ben Laden there.

Originally Posted by Партизан

I dont want to add again facts about my country, but its true that the U.S. are the world policeman since the SU doesnt exit anymore and that you did many many bad things

Many countries turn us into the world police though. If we help out another country because they ask us, we're accused of being wrong, bad, evil.. Many times Bush has even been called a dictator. If the US doesn't help, then it's because "there's no interests in that country", the US is evil, bad, wrong, and a dictatorship. For instance, the discussion with N. Korea. We're helping Russia, China, and Japan (I think they're involved right?) to hold meetings with Jong Il. But, many people say the US should mind their business. The other side says, do something, do something. If something goes wrong, the US will be the one to blame. If N.Korea withholds everything, the US is then accused of controlling other countries and not minding their own business. It's a no win situation.

Oh my god! This is turning into the thread from hell! We've got the Darwinism v Creationism and the Causes of Terrorism debate running at the same time. All we need now is Vending Machine to step in and start talking about how to treat women again

On first place we should not be there at all. And yes, we need to leave.

But what about Bible? Or you learned Chinese already? [/quote]

Out of all the sermons I have been to in church, not one priest or one passage that they've quote has said anything about killing anyone from another religion, or killing anyone as a matter of fact. According to our religion, in the 10 Commandments, which are the basic laws of the Christian religion, killing is one of the things it's against. So please, really, point out where it says that killing someone is approved of by God. And if there is, I don't see anyone in the 21st century from the religion or 20th century at that, killing in "the name of God" or because of the Bible.

Originally Posted by rgkatyaisashaukr

On first place we should not be there at all. And yes, we need to leave.

But what about Bible? Or you learned Chinese already?

Out of all the sermons I have been to in church, not one priest or one passage that they've quote has said anything about killing anyone from another religion, or killing anyone as a matter of fact. According to our religion, in the 10 Commandments, which are the basic laws of the Christian religion, killing is one of the things it's against. So please, really, point out where it says that killing someone is approved of by God. And if there is, I don't see anyone in the 21st century from the religion or 20th century at that, killing in "the name of God" or because of the Bible.

Well, I participated several muslim ceremonies in Mosques, never heard a single word for killing.

Didn't church bless soldiers going to war in Iraq? Or pilots dripping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? More examples?

Originally Posted by Pioner

Well, I participated several muslim ceremonies in Mosques, never heard a single word for killing.

Didn't church bless soldiers going to war in Iraq? Or pilots dripping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? More examples?

I posted a link to sermons in Palestinian mosques where such sermons were being preached. Didn't you bother to click on it?

Some of us on this forum would not be alive today if we had not have blown the crap out of Japan.

Originally Posted by DDT

Some of us on this forum would not be alive today if we had not have blown the cr@p out of Japan.

Oh, really? What was a military use of murdering tens of thousands of japanese, most of them civilians? The Japan was already loosing the war.

"What book people who droped A-bombs on Japan read?"

Wow, that's a really stupid question to ask Pioner. The United States, (which is really off topic by the way, because we're discussing religion here, not specific countries), didn't declare it as an "act of God" or "in the name of God" and posted it in newspapers or on websites. These extremists commit these acts and then declare that it is in the name of their god. You can't even compare the two.

Originally Posted by rgkatyaisashaukr

"What book people who droped A-bombs on Japan read?"

Wow, that's a really stupid question to ask Pioner. The United States, (which is really off topic by the way, because we're discussing religion here, not specific countries), didn't declare it as an "act of God" or "in the name of God" and posted it in newspapers or on websites. These extremists commit these acts and then declare that it is in the name of their god. You can't even compare the two.

well, I perfectly can. Imagine if you are a muslim, and you see the world the same way DDT sees world, us good muslims, them bad everybody else. Do you have enough imagination? And for you that will clearly see that the bomb was dropped by christians.

Anyhow, what difference it does make for civilian japanese who died in that attack? Oh, they did not posted that it was from God? Well, I died from taht. Or my childeren died in that attack. The attack was totally useless from military point of view, Japan was already loosing the war, and was about to sign peace with USA.

Originally Posted by Cyphyr

Well, I'm staying out of it this time.

I'm with you, Cypher. I'm sitting this one out, on the side-lines.

Originally Posted by Prince of Persia

Hi every body
I'm from a Muslim country . 99% of my people are Muslim mostly shiah.
I'm not religious.
DDT , you have good information about Islam and history of Islam , but I assure you there are only a few Muslims who know that things about Islam and Mohammad , because if they know those things they won't be Muslim anymore and they will change their religion (like me).
So the Muslims (especially non Arabic language Muslims , like Iranians , Turks and ...) think there are only good things in Koran . In every house in Iran you can find Koran but I'm sure bellow than 1% of Iranian have read the whole Koran , and those who's read because they have a good view about Koran when they read they only get good things . I don't think nobody after reading Koran had been so angry to go to kill Americans. If Muslims only want to kill Christians why don't they kill Armenians or Greeks , they are very near to Muslim's world . Why Muslims go to USA or England to kill Christians .
I think all these terrorist attacks and war against terrorist is a political play .
Why Muslims weren't terrorist 30 years ago , even 10 years ago , Koran was written 1400 years ago , but why Muslims became terrorist only 5 years ago? ( I don't deny religious wars during these 1400 years , Iran was the first victim of this kind of war in 1400 years ago , but they were wars not terrorist attacks) .
Why Muslims became terrorist only after there wasn't USSR anymore ? because USA needed another enemy . Now American soldiers are in every where in the whole Middle east (except Iran) . They're looking for Ben-ladan , Al-zarghawi and.... but they don't find them .Do you know what's the best way to don't find somebody? it's to know where he is , then you can easily don't search there . USA needs Ben-laden , USA needs Al-zarghawi , USA needs terrorist attacks and USA needs Muslims terrorists .
I admit those terrorists who hijacked on 11sep or who blow up themselves to kill people are true Muslims . I admit Islam has serious problems but as I told before I think all of these attacks and wars are only a political play. Those terrorists are only Marionette.

Muslims were not perceived as terrorists only 5 years ago. They were placed in that position when the conflict between Israel and Palestine began after WWII. You all also forget about the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which was also conducted by bin Laden. Except that time, it didn't affect the towers like they had thought it would. So, in 2001, they decided to try again with 2 fully fueled planes. I'm sorry, but if you think it's humane to do something like that in the name of your god, then maybe you should have seen the buildings smoldering with your own eyes in person like I did. Maybe you should have seen constant videos of people jumping from windows. Or those few that survived who have psychological problems now, maybe you should talk to them.

Over time, the image of Muslims being "evil" will slowly fade away, if this war with extremists ever comes to an end. The same thing happened with the Japanese during and after WWII. It also happened during the time of the Soviet Union when the world was in fear of communism. Unfortunately, the war has already begun and it would be very difficult to just turn your back on the whole situation. Many of you think it would be simply to just pull the troops out, and everything would be finished. But, it will just continue, even if no troops were sent in.

well, enjoy:

The Second World War finally came to
an end in 1945 with the atomic bombing of
Nagasaki and Hiroshima. A plane, piloted by
Catholics and blessed by a Catholic chaplain,
dropped a bomb on Nagasaki, and the epicentre
of the explosion was the Catholic cathedral,
annihilating Japan’s main community of
Catholics. Not only have Christian churches
tended to take the side of the wars waged by
the countries in which they find themselves,
they have exhorted their members to kill fellow
Christians elsewhere.

http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/nwm20/crit_geog_chr.pdf