Thanks all for encouraging me.
Actually I already get both short and full versions on my e-reader and this is why I am swaying in my choice. If had only one version I would have no choice and no doubts ;-) .
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Thanks all for encouraging me.
Actually I already get both short and full versions on my e-reader and this is why I am swaying in my choice. If had only one version I would have no choice and no doubts ;-) .
Wow! I read the short story a long, long time ago when I was at school, but I never knew there was a novel-length version of it.
I've only read the short story.
But according to wikipedia, one big difference in the novel is the addition of a subplot about a second woman that Charlie becomes romantically/sexually involved with. (As his intelligence increases, his libido "awakens," and he starts to fall in love with his attractive young teacher, Alice Kinnian. His new sexual feelings for Miss Kinnian are referred to in the short story, but in the novel, he later meets a second woman -- she's a fun-loving "шлюха" who is quite unlike the academically-minded Miss Kinnian.)
Ultimately, both women have great difficulty dealing with the rapid changes in Charlie's personality and intelligence, though their reactions are different, just as their personalities are different.
Я, как и многие другие в России, читал детскую и юношескую (приключенческую) английскую литературу и могу сказать, что она и в переводе не перестаёт быть интересной.
A number of my daughter's friends were talking in school about the book Post Secret so we went to the library yesterday and got a copy, The books (there is more than one now) came out of an art project by a man who lives not too far away from us.
BTW.. the song used in this video is by Sia who I mentioned in the Music thread.
http://youtu.be/B6rTkp1dek4
Quote:
The instructions were simple, but the results were extraordinary.
"You are invited to anonymously contribute a secret to a group art project. Your secret can be a regret, fear, betrayal, desire, confession, or childhood humiliation. Reveal anything -- as long as it is true and you have never shared it with anyone before. Be brief. Be legible. Be creative."
It all began with an idea Frank Warren had for a community art project. He began handing out postcards to strangers and leaving them in public places -- asking people to write down a secret they had never told anyone and mail it to him, anonymously.
The response was overwhelming. The secrets were both provocative and profound, and the cards themselves were works of art -- carefully and creatively constructed by hand. Addictively compelling, the cards reveal our deepest fears, desires, regrets, and obsessions. Frank calls them "graphic haiku," beautiful, elegant, and small in structure but powerfully emotional.
As Frank began posting the cards on his website, PostSecret took on a life of its own, becoming much more than a simple art project. It has grown into a global phenomenon, exposing our individual aspirations, fantasies, and frailties -- our common humanity.
Every day dozens of postcards still make their way to Frank, with postmarks from around the world, touching on every aspect of human experience. This extraordinary collection brings together the most powerful, personal, and beautifully intimate secrets Frank Warren has received -- and brilliantly illuminates that human emotions.
I must say, I was very moved in reading the postcards. Some are funny and many are sad. I found several that were things I felt or feel.Quote:
The secrets are meant to be empowering both to the author and to those who read it. Frank Warren claims that the postcards are inspirational to those who read them, have healing powers for those who write them, give hope to people who identify with a stranger's secret, and create an anonymous community of acceptance.
I was also surprised to learn that Post Secret Kazakhstan, a trilingual (Russian, Kazakh, and English) project was launched in January 2011. I believe this is the link to the correct site... Открытки с секретом Казахстан – Құпиялы ашық хаттар Қазақстан – Post Secret Kazakhstan | Какова Ваша тайна? – Сіздің қандай құпияныз бар? – What's your secret?
Older daughter has to read The Odyssey for English class. I never had to read this in school and I don't look forward to reading this with her. I downloaded a full-cast audio version of the book and a free digital version of it to read.
Has anyone read this (or listened to it) and if so, what are your thoughts)
The Odyssey of Homer
Author: Yuri Rasovsky; Edward Asner; Irene Worth; Homer. Publisher: [Ashland] : Blackstone Audiobooks, [2004] Edition/Format: http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/rel2011...-recnsrurl.gif eAudiobook : MP3 : Document : EnglishView all editions and formats Summary: It seems quite natural, given the original intent of The Odyssey as a story to be listened to and savored, to present this epic to the modern audience in a medium that most adheres to its aural-oral nature and the immediacy of its telling. Divided into eight one-hour segments of dramatization, each segment is followed by commentary on a particular aspect of the segment by a noted expert. Rating: (not yet rated) 0 with reviews - Be the first.
I've never heard this voicing of the story - but I love the Odyssey, all of Homer's works.. Some would argue, but, of all the Greek writings/stories/myths/sagas/what-have-you, I think this one is by far the coolest.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
You probably already know this, but the movie O Brother Where Art Thou? was (albeit loosely) based on the Iliad/Odyssey story.. For those who don't feel like digging through the old dusty version that might be something to look at.. though scholastically it won't hold water =)
The story at its heart is really simple.. This guy has to go off and do his manly/heroic duty, so he leaves his amazingly beautiful wife, sure he's only going to be gone a short time.. But the Goddess of the Sea holds him back from going home, through various crazy adventures, for - I think it's 10 years? It could be more than that, I might not be remembering right - and even when he does get back he's got to deal with other men after his woman, and a son that grew up while he was away.. In the right setting, this could totally be an American big budget movie..
There's also magic, sirens, a cyclops, some cannibals, a little war, and at least one shipwreck, so it's got something for everybody. =)
I probably didn't answer your question very well if you're looking for something specific, but I want to help if I can, anything specific I can answer for you?
EDIT: Homer loved to mess with names. Homer isn't even his real name - supposedly, he was a Babylonian by the name of Tigranes, but when the Greeks took him prisoner, he took the name "Homer" - literally homeros, or "hostage." Odysseus’ name means “trouble” in Greek, referring to both the giving and receiving of trouble—often the case in his wanderings. An example is the boar hunt in which Odysseus is injured by the boar and responds by killing it. Odysseus' heroic trait is his mētis, or "cunning intelligence": he is often described as the "Peer of Zeus in Counsel." This intelligence is most often manifested by his use of disguise and deceptive speech. His disguises take forms both physical (altering appearance) and verbal, such as telling the Cyclops Polyphemus that his name is Ουτις, "Noman", then escaping after blinding Polyphemus. When asked by other Cyclopes why he is screaming, Polyphemus replies that "No man" is hurting him, so the others assume that, "If alone as you are [Polyphemus] none uses violence on you, why, there is no avoiding the sickness sent by great Zeus; so you had better pray to your father, the lord Poseidon".The most evident flaw that Odysseus sports is that of his arrogance and his pride, or hubris. As he sails away from the island of the Cyclopes, he shouts his name and boasts that no one can defeat the "Great Odysseus". The Cyclops then throws the top half of a mountain at him and prays to his father, Poseidon, saying that Odysseus has blinded him. This enrages Poseidon, causing the god to thwart Odysseus' homecoming for a very long time.
EDIT EDIT: I'm an idiot, didn't realize this post had been answered very thoroughly.. please ignore my post if you like or if it's repetitive..
Kidkboom... I feel like the idiot as I don't see where someone else answered this...Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkboom
As for what you wrote... THANK YOU.. you made the book seem VERY interesting and made me actually want to read it :) I'm printing out what you wrote and giving it to my daughter. If she has questions, I'll post them in a new thread so that if anyone else wants to join in we have it there.
BTW... younger daughter just finish reading Of Mice and Men (older daughter had to read it last year). This time I did read it and I'm glad I did as the the week after she finished reading it Saturday Night Live did a skit and had a reference in the skit from the book that I would never had understood if I hadn't read it. Otherwise, I felt there was absolutely no use to reading the book... sorry to anyone who liked it.
I can only find the video on Hulu and I know a number of you can't watch that, so here is the transcript of the part I'm talking about
Transcript
RICK PERRY (BILL HADER): I'm not gonna be president, am I?At this point, Romney pulls out a handgun, to shoot Perry.
MITT ROMNEY (JASON SUDEIKIS): No. No, you're not.
PERRY: Can I be your vice president?
ROMNEY: Sure, sure, sure. (Shakes his head and mouths 'no' behind Perry)
PERRY: Where are we goin' after this, Mitt?
ROMNEY: We're going to go to a nice field, where you never have to say another word. There's going to be a cow and a chicken.
PERRY: I like that. Are there rabbits?
ROMNEY: Yeah, yeah rabbits everywhere.
PERRY: Tell me about the rabbits, Mitt.
ROMNEY: You can tend the rabbits.
kidkboom (or anyone else who has read The Odyssey) my daughter would like to have your take on Chapter 11 The Kingdom of the Dead and Chapter 12 The Castle of the Sun. As you gave an amazing summary and put it into understandable every day English, she'd like to hear what you have to say about them.
Thanks!
Sure, I'll do whatever I can! First my links and resources, the copy of Odyssey I'm referring is The Odyssey of Homer in English verse - Homer - Google Books (there's a more authentic copy, but I can't read Greek).. and the SparkNotes (just to make sure I know what I'm talking about) I used are here => SparkNotes: The Odyssey: Books 10–11Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
Well a lot is going on in Book 11 - Odysseus was instructed by Circe (a witch and one of his more lengthy "flings") to speak to Tiresias in the land of the dead (Hades) to find a safe way to return home (which is his overriding goal for most of the literature), so he goes to the land of the Cimmerians, to the River of Ocean ("the furthest edge of Ocean's stream") which is where, vaguely, all souls enter into the afterworld.. There they perform some weird sheep-blood sacrifical ritual that Circe explained to him, wherein the blood "attracts the souls of the dead" and he begins to speak to them.. His intent is to speak to Tiresias but he ends up speaking to like 400 people in no particular order.. the important ones, scholastically speaking, would be Elpenor, one of Odysseus' men, who got too drunk in Circe's palace and fell down a ladder and died, rather gruesomely, and begs Odysseus to bury him properly.. (Greeks had strong beliefs about proper burial being relative to proper admission to the afterlife) .. Then ""Odysseus then speaks with the Theban prophet Tiresias, who reveals that Poseidon is punishing the Achaeans for blinding his son Polyphemus. He foretells Odysseus’s fate—that he will return home, reclaim his wife and palace from the wretched suitors, and then make another trip to a distant land to appease Poseidon. He warns Odysseus not to touch the flocks of the Sun "" -(literally, sheep the Sun owns)- ""when he reaches the land of Thrinacia; otherwise, he won’t return home without suffering much more hardship and losing all of his crew."" Then a long scene where Odysseus talks to him mom Anticlea (heh, Aunty Cleah) and she tells him how crazy things have been back home in Ithaca, his wife sorrowfully waiting for him; she tells him that she herself (mom) died of grief waiting for him (major guilt trip! =P ) -- So did I speak, and my reverend mother forthright replied: "Nay, but with a patient spirit thy wife doth abide / In thy halls; and evermore, for the burden of sorrow she bears / Her days are consumed with heaviness, yea, and her nights with tears."
At this point Book 11 is getting wordy so Homer breaks up the text, by having Odysseus say he wants to go to sleep - which pisses off his hosts the king & queen of the Cimmerians, they ask him to be polite enough to finish.. so he agrees and goes on. (Scholars say this is ONLY written in to break up the monotony.) [This text is written as if Alcinous the king and Nausikaa the queen are actually there, as if the ritual was being performed in their court - they even mention the 'people' of Phaecia as being shared hosts of these sailors their guests - yet in the beginning of the book, the scene is only set as being in the land of Cimmeria, in their "dreary" and "grey" town they have there; and the ritual involves digging little holes in the dirt for filling with libations, from what I can tell, so why the king and queen are actually THERE I'm a bit loose on as a writer.. wish I could actually ask that question to a real live scholar, which I'm not..] Anyway accepting that the king and queen and some Phaecians are in the background of the scene they go on.. Some of these meetings and recounts go beyond the scope of an average class and writing into the meat of Greek Myth. Majors's studies..
The most important meaning of all these events is a) Teiresias giving Odysseus a bunch of warnings and helpful advice, free of charge (which is the sort of mistake that led T. to be blind in the first place [[..different stories were told of the cause of his blindness, the most direct being that he was blinded by the gods for revealing their secrets.]] ), then b) tying together a lot of prior events in the book and foreshadowing some upcoming ones, and c) tying the characters throughout the Odyssey in to the colloquial Greek life, so that Greek audiences would appreciate the story more.
I'm going to try to jump back on later tonight and cover Book 12 - luck/life/kidk
Hey Kidkboom.... daughter says many thanks and to say... not to be rude or anything, but ya never came back with Book 12 :) She has to write a script for a small skit for those two books.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkboom
I've started "One flew over the cuckoo's nest" by Ken Kesey. Well, this is quite a hard journey with a lot of things which refer to a US way of life and are a sort of a puzzle for a non US person. On the other hand Kesey uses present tense instead of past tense for the story flow narration.
When the book started I thought that the present tense was selected since there is a description of a typical day flow in the mental hospital. But after some pages when the action begins with new patient incoming and disturbing the typical day flow the tense selection has not changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Kesey
Well, is it a typical way to not use the past tense for the story flow or it is just a specific choice for the Kesey's book only?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Kesey
I've read a German book in which almost every verb was used in the present tense, and I liked it - the story flow is more living. Why are anecdotes told with verbs in the present tense or why do we use the present tense telling about what happened to us yesterday? In order to make them more inpressive, as if you saw things happening with your own eyes. And the past tense is boring - all works of literature in the world are written in past. People like the new and unusual.
Hi, CoffeeCup: Kesey is using an informal style for this story, using first person, in the voice of that person. Some people use this kind of present tense to tell things that happened to them. I don't think Kesey is the only one to do this in books in English. He is simply using the character to give the story the way that the character would in real life. Some people talk that way.
Well, thus using the typical past tense for a story flow is a sort of a movie in a cinema when a reader watch it as a third person, while the present tense is a sort of first person 3D shooter (PC game). There is even more coincidence with Kesey’s book since his character is pretending being dumb as well as in most PC shooters a protagonist does not say a word too. I do remember when I was younger and played 3D shooters I had a filling that the PC game’s character I was operating was dumb since he was able only to move and shoot as I liked but never recited a word of mine about those monsters to be shot. Though Kesey hardly had this resemblance in mind since there were no 3D shooters at his time yet.
Maybe it is like this as you describe, because in this style of talking/writing about something that has happened in past, using present tense, person is re-living events right now, in memory, and so is 'now' because person is re-experiencing events even though they are over and passed. When a person has extremely powerful event occur to them, they re-experience them as though happening right now, and so not uncommon to use present tense, even though is really a memory, and passed. 'Flash backs' are 'right now'.
CoffeeCup,Quote:
Originally Posted by CoffeeCup
Sorry for coming in late to this... I thought I had talked about this book or the movie made from it... The Time Traveler's Wife it is written in present tense. Here is an interesting article about this style of writing:
Grammar Girl : Present Tense Books :: Quick and Dirty Tips
Why Use Present Tense?
Now, in my experience, most books are written in past tense, as if the story has already happened and the narrator is telling you about it after the fact. John Updike's novel Rabbit, Run, published in 1959, is sometimes thought to be the first novel written in the present tense (2), but Updike credits two other writers as coming before him: Damon Runyon and Joyce Cary. Nevertheless, I found Updike's comments about his state of mind when he was choosing the present tense to be illuminating. I've heard people complain that present tense novels sound like screen directions, and for me, it IS easier to imagine the sentenceJack walks into a diner just south of Japantown as the opening sentence of a screenplay than as the first sentence in a novel. And here's what Updike had to say about Rabbit, Run back in 1990:
It was subtitled, in my conception of it, ''A Movie''; I imagined the opening scene as something that would happen behind credits, and I saw the present tense of the book as corresponding to the present tense in which we experience the cinema (3).
I read that and thought, "Ah, ha! He thought of it as screen direction too."
I was so intrigued by this idea of writing a novel in the present tense that I interviewed Seth Harwood a few days ago to learn more about his reasoning for doing it and learned that other people had also told him that it seemed like a screenplay. But his background is in writing short stories, and he tells me that short stories are more commonly written in the present tense, so it wasn't a big leap for him to write a novel that way. Also, because his book is a crime novel, writing it in the present tense allows the reader to unfold the mystery at the same time as the main character. When Jack is surprised, we're surprised at the same time.
Reading a fiction novel requires the reader to suspend disbelief to some degree to get wrapped up in a story we know isn't true, and a present tense novel can require an extra suspension of disbelief to accept the idea that events are unfolding right now.
I was also reminded by one of my Twitter friends that another book I recently read was written in the present tense: The Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger. I found the use of present tense in that novel less distracting, I imagine because the entire novel is written in such an unusual way. That book is about a time traveler and tells the story from the perspective of two different people, and there is a lot of jumping around in time.
Anyway, my take away from reading about verb tense in novels and from talking with Seth Harwood is that some people think writing in the present tense is modern and other people think it is trendy and annoying. It's kind of a risky move if you're trying to get your first novel published, but it didn't stop Seth. He got his book published. And although I did find the present tense in his book distracting, I still enjoyed the story. It had a lot of action and was a great book to read on the plane.
Also, If you go to Seth's webpage--sethharwood.com--you'll find a recording of our interview, in which we actually talk about tense and person.That's all. Thanks for listening.
A Sampling of Books Written in the Present Tense
- Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger
- House of Sand and Fog by Andre Dubus III
- Choke by Chuck Palahniuk
- Fight Club by Chuck Palahniuk
- Ilium by Dan Simmons (some parts)
- Olympos by Dan Simmons (some parts)
- Rabbit, Run by John Updike
- Line of Vision by David Ellis
- The Sound of My Voice by Ron Butlin (also in second person)
- Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas by Tom Robbins (also in second person)
- The Mezzanine by Nicholson Baker [This one was recommended by a Twitter friend, but I couldn't independently confirm that it's in the present tense. Anyone?]
Wow, rockzmom,
this is quite a good discussion on the topic with a number of interesting comments:
Quote:
Originally Posted by writingsuga
Well, the "Time Traveler's Wife" is now in my reading list for sure. By the way I was quite surprised with the option of second person narration, so my reading list is certainly lengthened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan G. Hagger
Older daughter's English class is now on to... Frankenstein. Yet again another book I never read. Never saw any of the movie versions either.
You can get the book legally online in English HERE
Book updates: Older daughter had to Read Catcher in the Rye (which we already talker about in this thread and I posted a vocabulary thread about). Now for mandatory summer reading, younger daughter has to read it! Poor girl. Well, maybe she might actually like :)
For mandatory summer reading... older daughter she has to read:
Life of Pi by Yann Martel (which is being made into a 3D film by Ang Lee)
The Secret Sits by Robert Frost
The Tiger by William BlakeQuote:
We dance round in a ring and suppose,
But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
Some things that fly there be (#89) by Emily Dickinson
Do Not Go Gentle into That Good Night by Dylan Thomas
and Aunt Jennifer’s Tigers by Adrienne Rich
Then... Select one of the poems and write an essay in which you compare and contrast a particular aspect of this poem to the novel Life of Pi.
While looking to the Life of Pi in the used book store, I came across a copy of Dreams of My Russian Summers by Andrei Makine. This book is the first novel in history to win both the Prix Goncourt and the Prix Medicis plus the Goncourt des Lyceens. It was actually written in French and translated into English. Here is a link to the review from The New York Times
I hope that maybe... I'll be able to read this one over the summer. Has anyone read this book already???Quote:
The first of Makine's four novels to appear in English, this autobiographical novel won the 1995 Prix Medicis for Best Foreign Fiction as well as France's prestigious Prix Goncourt, never before awarded to a non-Frenchman. Its coming-of-age story describes young Andrei's summers with his French grandmother Charlotte in the remote Russian village of Saranza. She came to Russia as a Red Cross nurse during World War I and fell in love with a Russian lawyer who went off to the front and later died a premature death from his war wounds. Charlotte and Andrei spend many summer evenings sharing her memories of turn-of-the-century Paris. As the adolescent Andrei struggles with his identity?is he Russian or French?he discovers that it was possible for Charlotte to live in such a foreign land and retain her "Frenchness" because of her love for her husband. Andrei finally reconciles these contrasting facets of his identity and eventually emigrates to France. Makine has fashioned a deeply felt, lyrically told tale.
Older daughter has now been assigned The Handmaid's Tale. I remember watching the movie back in 1990, but I never read the book.
The Handmaid's Tale is a dystopian novel, a work of science fiction or speculative fiction, written by Canadian author Margaret Atwood and first published by McClelland and Stewart in 1985. Set in the near future, in a totalitarian Christian theocracy which has overthrown the United States government, The Handmaid's Tale explores themes of women in subjugation and the various means by which they gain agency. The novel's title was inspired by Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales, which is a series of connected stories ("The Merchant's Tale", "The Parson's Tale", etc.).
The Handmaid's Tale won the 1985 Governor General's Award and the first Arthur C. Clarke Award in 1987, and it was nominated for the 1986 Nebula Award, the 1986 Booker Prize, and the 1987 Prometheus Award.
I read the short stories collection "Bears discover fire" by Terry Bisson. In the stories "Two Janets", "Two Guys From the Future" and a couple of other stories I've encountered an intriguing writer's trick which I've never met before: being a male author he wrote some stories as a first person female character (as if a female character tell us the story herself).
I have some mixed feelings about the experience. Probably it is because I knew that the author is a male and I expected the male person who would told me the story, probably the author did not care too much for the reader to "feel" the female character but rather he was focused on the plot.
Well, did anybody read something written by a male author where the story is told by the first female person? Actually there are tons of vice versa examples where a female author tells the story from the first male person. For an example, Agatha Christi. But it is what would any publisher expect or probably even ask from the author. As it was mentioned in the thread about Ryan Reynolds "Girls will go to a guy movie if it’s good, but guys will not go to a movie if it appears to cater to girls". So, why would a male author write a story in the way as if it was written by a women?
"The Collector" by John Robert FowlesQuote:
Originally Posted by CoffeeCup
Коллекционер (роман) — ВикипедияQuote:
Вторая часть романа представляет собой «дневник» Миранды, во время заточения её в подвале дома, купленного Клеггом, вкупе с воспоминаниями девушки.
Ну и про Красную Шапочку не забываем. Все-таки, девочка же сама там говорила: "Бабушка,а почему у тебя такие большие зубы?")))
The Fault In Our Stars Author John Green has done this and he did it as a teenaged girl. They are currently making a movie out of The Fault in Our Stars as well. Here is a link to an answer he gave about writing from girl's point of view so to speak..Quote:
Originally Posted by CoffeeCup
The Fault in our Stars author John Green on sick-lit, zombies and writing through the eyes of a teenage girl | Sugarscape |
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
It was really a challenge to dare to put it this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Green
Все-таки там "Жила-была в одной деревне маленькая девочка". Т.е. повествование ведется от третьего лица, а не от самой девочки.Quote:
Originally Posted by diogen_
Ну а дальше-то Шапочка начинает “отсебятину плести”: - Иду к бабушке и несу ей пирожок и горшочек масла и т.п. и т.д. Чем это принципиально отличается от того, как Пуаро с Гастингсом у той же Агаты Кристи “воркуют”?Quote:
Все-таки там "Жила-была в одной деревне маленькая девочка". Т.е. повествование ведется от третьего лица, а не от самой девочки.
Я так, честно говоря, и не понял (если опуститься с высот метафор и сравнений на грешную землю), в чем заключаются трудности письма от имени женщин:Quote:
I have some mixed feelings about the experience. Probably it is because I knew that the author is a male and I expected the male person who would told me the story, probably the author did not care too much for the reader to "feel" the female character but rather he was focused on the plot.
Well, did anybody read something written by a male author where the story is told by the first female person? Actually there are tons of vice versa examples where a female author tells the story from the first male person. For an example, Agatha Christi. But it is what would any publisher expect or probably even ask from the author. As it was mentioned in the thread about Ryan Reynolds "Girls will go to a guy movie if it’s good, but guys will not go to a movie if it appears to cater to girls". So, why would a male author write a story in the way as if it was written by a women?
-В загадочной женской душе, ее иррациональности и непостижимости?
-Ограниченности мужской способности к эмпатии и воспроизведению чужого “потока сознания?
-В том что это просто нехорошо, и “настоящие мужики ни за что на свете такими делами заниматься не станут?
-Никому такое чтиво не интересно?
-Стилистические трудности?
-Что-то другое?
Ну и в чем заключаются "mixed fillings"? Что там так не понравилось?
First person narration is the narration by a person who has participated in the story him/herself.Quote:
Ну а дальше-то Шапочка начинает “отсебятину плести”: - Иду к бабушке и несу ей пирожок и горшочек масла и т.п. и т.д. Чем это принципиально отличается от того, как Пуаро с Гастингсом у той же Агаты Кристи “воркуют”?
Third person narration is the narration by a person who does not participate in the narrated story.
In the both ways of narration the narrator can recite what other characters said (or thought) it is called direct speech.
In the case of the "Little Red Riding Hood" it is neither the young girl nor the big bad wolf who tells us the story, even though there is direct speech of the both of them in the story. It is somebody else who was secretly running behind the red riding hood and listened and scripted everything she and the big bad wolf said. It is called the third person narration.
While in the "Hercules Poirot" stories it is Hustings who tells us the story. And he refers to himself as "I" in all the parts of the text outside of direct speech quotations. This is called the first person narration.
Let's imagine that you have two friends, a man and a women, who have watched a movie you did not. You ask them to describe the movie for you two decide whether you want to watch it or not. But currently they are unable to see you in person but are ready to send their descriptions by e-mail. I bet you find out which description is written by whom even if you will not look at the sender's e-mail address. So if a male author want to write a story as if it was written by a women he probably would need to put some efforts to do it a little bit different with respect to his general writing practice.Quote:
Я так, честно говоря, и не понял (если опуститься с высот метафор и сравнений на грешную землю), в чем заключаются трудности письма от имени женщин:
-В загадочной женской душе, ее иррациональности и непостижимости?
-Ограниченности мужской способности к эмпатии и воспроизведению чужого “потока сознания?
-В том что это просто нехорошо, и “настоящие мужики ни за что на свете такими делами заниматься не станут?
-Никому такое чтиво не интересно?
-Стилистические трудности?
-Что-то другое?
I don't know would these efforts be big or small I never tried it myself.
I didn't say I didn't like it. I just said it was unexpected and I was curious how frequently male authors do it this way.Quote:
Ну и в чем заключаются "mixed fillings"? Что там так не понравилось?
В таком случае Агату Кристи вообще нельзя приводить в качестве примера. Главным героем является Пуаро, и он произносит диалоги от третьего лица. Большая часть произведений цикла наполнена диалогами от его имени. Гастингс выполняет сугубо вспомогательную функцию, лишь оттеняя своей дремучестью гения бельгийца. Не исключаю толику плагиата по отношению к паре Холмс-Ватсон в качестве причины возникновения героев Агаты Кристи.Quote:
In the case of the "Little Red Riding Hood" it is neither the young girl nor the big bad wolf who tells us the story, even though there is direct speech of the both of them in the story. It is somebody else who was secretly running behind the red riding hood and listened and scripted everything she and the big bad wolf said. It is called the third person narration.
While in the "Hercules Poirot" stories it is Hustings who tells us the story. And he refers to himself as "I" in all the parts of the text outside of direct speech quotations. This is called the first person narration.
Я по-прежнему не понимаю, чем диалоги типа “Бла, бла, бла” – сказала Красная Шапочка” более естественны в написании, чем диалоги “Бла, бла, бла” – я сказал” при “половом расхождении” автора и главного героя. По-моему, тут сугубо дело индивидуальных предпочтений и не более того.
Почему, на ваш взгляд, женщине требуется меньше усилий войти в образ мужчины и написать соответствующую историю, чем наоборот (мужчине войти в образ женщины)? Почему первый вариант более “естественен” чем второй?Quote:
Let's imagine that you have two friends, a man and a women, who have watched a movie you did not. You ask them to describe the movie for you two decide whether you want to watch it or not. But currently they are unable to see you in person but are ready to send their descriptions by e-mail. I bet you find out which description is written by whom even if you will not look at the sender's e-mail address. So if a male author want to write a story as if it was written by a women he probably would need to put some efforts to do it a little bit different with respect to his general writing practice.
Просто так захотелось написать. Муки творчества. Возможно, такая “смена пола” поможет принести большую популярность и увеличить тираж.Quote:
So, why would a male author write a story in the way as if it was written by a women?
It seems that you lost the point I was focused on. I’ll try to explain it in Russian.
В любом литературном произведении есть такое понятие как рассказчик. И именно от его лица ведется повествование (этот рассказчик как бы рассказывает нам эту историю).Quote:
В таком случае Агату Кристи вообще нельзя приводить в качестве примера. Главным героем является Пуаро, и он произносит диалоги от третьего лица. Большая часть произведений цикла наполнена диалогами от его имени. Гастингс выполняет сугубо вспомогательную функцию, лишь оттеняя своей дремучестью гения бельгийца.
Если этот рассказчик не участвовал в описываемых им событиях, то такой литературный прием называется повествованием от третьего лица (он сказал, она сказала).
Если этот рассказчик является одним из участников описываемых событий (я сказал, я сказала), то это называется повествованием от первого лица. При этом рассказчик вовсе не обязан быть главным героем (хотя и может).
Таким образом, произведения Агаты Кристи, где Гастингс рассказывает нам истории про Пуаро, являются примером, когда женщина автор пишет повествование от первого лица мужского пола. При этом совсем не важно кто в этой истории является главным героем. Таких примеров не мало. Однако, обратные примеры, когда автор мужского пола пишет повествование от первого лица женского пола, встречаются более редко. Почему? – я не знаю, поэтому и задал соответствующий вопрос.
Теперь, когда мы разобрались, что пол главного героя не имеет отношения к нашему литературному приему, а имеет отношение только пол рассказчика, стоит отметить, что при повествовании от третьего лица такого понятия как пол рассказчика в принципе не существует. Историю, написанную от третьего лица, может декламировать (буква за буквой) как мужчина, так и женщина, и здесь не возникнет никаких несоответствий.Quote:
Я по-прежнему не понимаю, чем диалоги типа “Бла, бла, бла” – сказала Красная Шапочка” более естественны в написании, чем диалоги “Бла, бла, бла” – я сказал” при “половом расхождении” автора и главного героя. По-моему, тут сугубо дело индивидуальных предпочтений и не более того.
Я подобных утверждений не делал, я задал вопрос: почему мужчины реже прибегают к подобной тактике и как много подобных примеров вы встречали? Соответственно, какой из вариантов является более естественным? и почему? я не знаю.Quote:
Почему, на ваш взгляд, женщине требуется меньше усилий войти в образ мужчины и написать соответствующую историю, чем наоборот (мужчине войти в образ женщины)? Почему первый вариант более “естественен” чем второй?
По-моему, вы не до конца поняли вопросы, которые я задавал в этой теме. Меня интересовало, не чем отличается произведение, написанное от первого лица по сравнению с “собратом”, написанием от третьего лица в принципе, а почему вы находите первый вариант из ряда вон выходящим, а второй – обычным в случаях, если главный герой - женщина, а автор- мужчина. В чем заключается принципиальное различия в плане сложности их создания, раз вы посчитали пример с Красной Шапочкой неподходящим. Также я не понял, в чем конкретно состоит смешанность “mixed feelings” кроме того, что это было неожиданно (unexpected) , если в вашем романе нет ничего такого, что вам особенно не пришлось по душе.
Моя позиция в этой теме:
1.Литературных произведений, написанные мужчинами от лица женщин - немного (но достаточное количество), а противоположных примеров вовсе не тонны (tons), как вы писали в начале, а тоже ограниченное количество.
2. Не имеет особого значения, идет ли речь о повествовании от третьего или от первого лица, если диалоги пишутся от имени женщины в романах, написанных мужчинами. В обоих случаях основное содержание мыслей героини (диалоги) заключено в кавычки(диалоги), а прямая речь идет от первого лица, а уж каким образом они “обрамлены”- это вопрос авторского стиля, и это не имеет принципиального значения с точки зрения трудностей написания и частоты появления на свет.Отсюда - пример с Красной Шапочкой, хотя он больше был приведен в шутку и отмечен маркером ")))".
3. Писать роман от чужого пола в одинаковой степени сложно как женщинам, так и мужчинам, поэтому такие произведения создаются в целом не часто.
4. Причины появления на свет таких произведений – сугубо субъективная, творческая (захотелось написать – написал(а)).
Еще навскидку два романа, написанных мужчинами от лица женщин в первом и третьем лице соответственно:
Голдинг Уильям - Двойной язык(повествование идет от первого лица- женщины )
Иван Ефремов – Таис Афинская (повествование - от третьего лица- женщины)
First of all, I was not challenging the idea if it is easier for a women to write about a man or vice versa. I was focused on a technical trick for a literature work: writing as the first person narration from an opposite gender point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by diogen_
The difference between the third person narration and the first person narration is not just changing the words "He/Her said" to "I said". The male authors do frequently write stories about women in the way of the third person narration:
"The women in yellow shoes crossed the street".
But when the author write the same story in the way of the first person narration he pretends that the story was written by the woman itself:
"Before going to work I looked at the window and see the Sun smiling at me and to smile back I put the yellow shoes on. Made my way out of the house and crossed the street."
The author need to add an extra layer of the work for a reader to believe that the story was written by the character of the book but not by the author. So, by changing the narrating person the author changes a lot of things in his story: the events to describe, the order in which events will be presented (that my be different from the order the events happened), the attitude to events, etc.
It is like a matryoshka nested doll thing. For the third person narration we just read the story about an event. For the first person narration we read a story about a women who tell us the story about the event.
Повествование от третьего лица не имеет пола повествователя. Не может быть повествования от третьего лица - женщины. Может быть повествование от третьего лица о женщине.Quote:
Originally Posted by diogen_