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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sign/sign0013.gif...but... I cannot begin to tell you how much I loathed "Catcher in the Rye" when I was forced to read it in high school! I tell you, it was one of the books which turned me OFF reading and contributed to the downfall of my vocabulary! That and "The World According to Garp" by John Irving and as I mentioned previously, The Grapes of Wrath. These books did nothing for me except make me hate to read as a child and young adult.
How old were you when you had to read those books? "The Grapes of Wrath" is definitely not a book for children, and I rather liked it when I read it as an adult. "The Catcher in the Rye" was also originally written as a book for adults, although many teens came to love it... And it is a well-known fact that chidrens almost never appreciate any books they are made to read as a part of their school curriculum.
And you know, it is sometimes hard to explain why you like what you like... Maybe I liked "The Catcher in the Rye" because I could really relate to the hero? I know it is a rather trite thing to say, but he became like a real, living person for me. And I could really, really sympathize with his protest against all things phoney. (By the way, many of his heroes seem to be on a sort of personal anti-phoney crusade. Does it tell us something about the author himself?). And then, it was about an American kid—which meant I could have a glimpse into how people live in America. You know, books of foreign authors always held some kind of charm for me for that exact reason: reading them helped me to better understand the life and the people of other countries. That was one of the reasons I was so eager to learn foreign languages. And, of course, Salinger is just a good writer. I mean, he has his way with words.
Stainbeck, in my opinion, was less of a wordstmith than Salinger was, but I still liked The Grapes of Wrath because of the insight into a part of the pre-war American history and American life it provided to me. I didn't find it boring at all. It was actually interesting to follow the adventures and struggle of the Joads family. Maybe it was just because I was learning something new while I was reading it?
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
I more or less agree with I translationsnmru's comments and experience on this.
The Catcher in the Rye was fabulous! I read it voluntarily as a teenager, at my own initiative. I completely identified with Holden Caulfield. I was at boarding school like him and was very close to expulsion a couple of times, exactly like Holden. I completely related to the idea that people were "phoney". Some pretty outdated English expressions were used in the book, I think. But at that time I felt this was one of the top ten books I'd ever read. I suppose I just liked the style of writing, the nonsensical plot and the anti-hero style of Holden.
Did you really read "The World According to Garp" in school? It has a VERY x-rated scene in it! I haven't read the book, but as a kid I looked in it because I knew of that scene... That killed any desire I had to read the book later in life.
Personally I didn't care much for Steinbeck; read "Of Mice and Men" in school but I just barely remember the plot - it failed to engage me. I did not know about Steinbeck's book on Russia that Basil mentioned. Sounds interesting judging from the Wiki entry. I think I'll check that out and perhaps add to my super-long "to read" list.
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Did you really read "The World According to Garp" in school? It has a VERY x-rated scene in it! I haven't read the book, but as a kid I looked in it because I knew of that scene... That killed any desire I had to read the book later in life.
Yup! 11th grade English class (Ms. Rosner) along with the other mentioned books. So I was about 15/16 years old.
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
translationsnmru & Johanna, thank you for sharing with me your points of view. They help a lot for me to understand. I never would have thought about those books as windows on "my" world. To me they were just dull dry books as dry as the dust bowl!
---------------
I am VERY excited though!!! My older daughter has her new book assignment and the book is... drum roll please..... The Hobbit, by J.R.R. Tolkien. Once again, I HAVE NOT read this book before and therefore I am pleased as punch with this choice by her teacher. I picked up a copy last night from the library. Now, I did of course watch all of the Lord of the Rings movies so I have a general idea about the characters; however, it is my understanding that this book is a prelude to those movies.
Someone on this forum MUST have read this book, no? What did you think of it?
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sign/sign0182.gif
Would someone please point me in the right direction here???
Younger daughter has been given the assignement "to write a poem, so that the "essence" of that poem would be fathers. Two stanzas is the requirement, anything else (rhyming, free flowing, etc.) is their choice. The poem should also have a "wow" factor."
Maybe I am just thinking too hard here or the brain cells are dying off from the meds... but I am lost with this "essence" term. Does anyone have an example to share (in English of course :) ) or can someone explain to me what this means? So I in turn can then help poor said child?
coffeecup, olya, basil, it-ogo, johanna, bitpicker, BappaBa, ekaterinak, lampada, translationsnmru ???....have I left anyone off??? If so....http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sign/sign0013.gif and your help is still wanted and appreciated!
Thanks!
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Well, rockzmom, I don't know any Russian examples - actually Iknow one Russian example, but first:
Robert Frost's poem, Birches, although long (sorry!) is a great example of the ESSENCE of growing up as a boy, on his own, among other things. Frost's father died of tuberculosis when he was 11 years old, he grew up with his mother and mother's family. To me, this poem captures both memory (the ice falling off the trees, leaving them as they were when he was young) and the way a young boy faces the world - through play on birch trees, he learns to overcome difficulties and bend them to his will - hopefully! Frost's life was tragic, hence the overlay of cold ice bending the trees as well.
Something I didn't know until I went looking: Robert Frost (one of my favorite poets) was actually an ambassador to Russia for awhile!
Birches
by
Robert Frost
When I see birches bend to left and right
Across the lines of straighter darker trees,
I like to think some boy's been swinging them.
But swinging doesn't bend them down to stay.
Ice-storms do that. Often you must have seen them
Loaded with ice a sunny winter morning
After a rain. They click upon themselves
As the breeze rises, and turn many-coloured
As the stir cracks and crazes their enamel.
Soon the sun's warmth makes them shed crystal shells
Shattering and avalanching on the snow-crust
Such heaps of broken glass to sweep away
You'd think the inner dome of heaven had fallen.
They are dragged to the withered bracken by the load,
And they seem not to break; though once they are bowed
So low for long, they never right themselves:
You may see their trunks arching in the woods
Years afterwards, trailing their leaves on the ground,
Like girls on hands and knees that throw their hair
Before them over their heads to dry in the sun.
But I was going to say when Truth broke in
With all her matter-of-fact about the ice-storm,
I should prefer to have some boy bend them
As he went out and in to fetch the cows--
Some boy too far from town to learn baseball,
Whose only play was what he found himself,
Summer or winter, and could play alone.
One by one he subdued his father's trees
By riding them down over and over again
Until he took the stiffness out of them,
And not one but hung limp, not one was left
For him to conquer. He learned all there was
To learn about not launching out too soon
And so not carrying the tree away
Clear to the ground. He always kept his poise
To the top branches, climbing carefully
With the same pains you use to fill a cup
Up to the brim, and even above the brim.
Then he flung outward, feet first, with a swish,
Kicking his way down through the air to the ground.
So was I once myself a swinger of birches.
And so I dream of going back to be.
It's when I'm weary of considerations,
And life is too much like a pathless wood
Where your face burns and tickles with the cobwebs
Broken across it, and one eye is weeping
From a twig's having lashed across it open.
I'd like to get away from earth awhile
And then come back to it and begin over.
May no fate willfully misunderstand me
And half grant what I wish and snatch me away
Not to return. Earth's the right place for love:
I don't know where it's likely to go better.
I'd like to go by climbing a birch tree
And climb black branches up a snow-white trunk
Toward heaven, till the tree could bear no more,
But dipped its top and set me down again.
That would be good both going and coming back.
One could do worse than be a swinger of birches.
from: http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/birches/
Theodore Roethke is another of my favorite poets. Here is one which, for better or worse, captures the ESSENCE of his father:
MY PAPA'S WALTZ
The whiskey on your breath
Could make a small boy dizzy;
But I hung on like death:
Such waltzing was not easy.
We romped until the pans
Slid from the kitchen shelf;
My mother's countenance
Could not unfrown itself.
The hand that held my wrist
Was battered on one knuckle;
At every step you missed
My right ear scraped a buckle.
You beat time on my head
With a palm caked hard by dirt,
Then waltzed me off to bed
Still clinging to your shirt.
from: http://unix.cc.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems ... .papa.html
and, my Russian being what it is lately, here's my Russian example, by Anna Akhmatova, the ESSENCE of this marriage is made obvious by the poem, without really explaining:
He Loved...
He loved three things in this world:
Evensong, white peacocks and very
Old tattered maps of America.
He despised it when little kids bawled,
Disliked tea served with berries
And women acting hysterical.
… And I was his wife.
in Russian:
Он любил...
Он любил три вещи на свете:
За вечерней пенье, белых павлинов
И стертые карты Америки.
Не любил, когда плачут дети,
Не любил чая с малиной
И женской истерики
...А я была его женой.
Hope this helps a little!
P.S. to all learning English: I went looking for a Russian translation of Birches. Nothing yet, but, here is someone reading the poem, and commentary, in English: http://www.englishcafe.com/blog/birches ... rost-18757
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
From Apollonia (Lampada's friend):
Hello dear Rockzmom, I hope I can help a wee bit.
A poem where the essence is fathers, with a WOW factor, eh? Your daughter can talk about her own experiences with her father, or she can research "famous" fathers, or fathers in history, or fathers in general. Possibly, if her father has a WOW factor, or perhaps a famous father with a flair for the unsual. I am sure your daughter will make the right decision. I wish her all the best. Please let us know the outcome.
These are just suggestions, but when Lampada asked me to read your question, I wanted to try and help. :-)
Peace and Love,
Apollonia x
http://spiritualquest.ning.com/
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Winifred, Lampada and Apollonia!
I was beginning to think I had stumped the librarian with my question!
Winifred, your examples are wonderful. Thank you so very much for finding them and posting the complete text. This helps all here with learning and me from having to look them up :D
Lampada, you also went the extra mile for reaching out to your friend. Please thank her and let her know her ideas and explaination were most useful. Said daughter has said that if she gets a good grade she will let me post her poem.
One of the companies I used to work for had an acronym of GEM for "Going the Extra Mile." Today the three of you earn a GEM Award!!!
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/q...n/gemaward.jpg
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
The Hobbit, by J.R.R. Tolkien. Once again, I HAVE NOT read this book before and therefore I am pleased as punch with this choice by her teacher. I picked up a copy last night from the library. Now, I did of course watch all of the Lord of the Rings movies so I have a general idea about the characters; however, it is my understanding that this book is a prelude to those movies.
http://chud.com/articles/content_images/5/hobbit.gif
Yeah it's a good book. I read it when I was eleven or so, but I still remember the plot. It explains how the Hobbits came to be in possession of the Ring, and where the creature "Gollum" came from. I am not sure if Tolkien wrote it before or after the Ring Trilogy. I would guess it was before... It's very well written, of course, and simply a charming "fantasy story" in its own right. I don't think children below 12 or so ought to read it though - despite the "fairytale" plot, it's really a book for adults -- there are some very dark moments. How old are your daughters?
Tolkien as a person is very interesting, I think, as is his friendship with CS Lewis - both were multi-talented geniuses, academics at Oxford, committed Christians and veterans of the First world war. They also played public roles during the second world war. Two truly outstanding Englishmen in my opinion.
JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis against a backdrop of Narnia and some figures from the Lord of the Rings
http://abettercountry.files.wordpres...nd-tolkien.jpg
People who like both Tolkien and Lewis should consider reading this book:
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/x0/x885.jpg
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
On a point that was made earlier: If you say that "only a native can fully appreciate poetry" I wont argue, I would just point out that "fully appreciating" poetry or whatever is a difficult task and it is doubtful how many native speakers who read only for pleasure (the majority) fully appreciate what they are reading.
I am not putting myself in the category of someone who fully appreciates, but, if, for example, I wanted to fully understand Tess of the Durbervilles by Thomas Hardy, I would have to read his other novels and poems; I would have to study the history of the novel going back to the 18th century; I would have to learn about the social and intellectual history of England in the 19th century; I would have to read many of the other contemporary writers; I would have to read any other literature that might have influenced Hardy when he wrote Tess, even if it is in French, Latin or Greek; it would be necessary for me to acquaint myself with the pastoral tradition in English literature; I would need to read biographies of the author; since his novels have a strong sense of place I should visit the English West Country to get a feel for the setting; a good knowledge of the Bible would be useful, and after doing all of that I might still not fully appreciate Tess because I have no sympathy for the man and his ideas.
Because when you read a book you are entering into a relationship with the author. What are his thoughts and feelings, his view of life? There are some English writers I will never appreciate or understand. A sympathetic non-native, I believe, can sometimes understand a poet's message better than a native who can't see the world through the poet's eyes.
I am not contradicting the statement that in general only a native can fully understand poetry, just qualifying it, and pointing out that full understanding is rare, even for natives.
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
On a point that was made earlier: If you say that "only a native can fully appreciate poetry" I wont argue, I would just point out that "fully appreciating" poetry or whatever is a difficult task and it is doubtful how many native speakers who read only for pleasure (the majority) fully appreciate what they are reading.
What's the point of "fully understanding?" What's important is if you enjoy and get something out of what you read. A non-native can, with work, enjoy and appreciate foreign poetry; much more so than someone reading a translation. I would rather do that than read something that I "fully understand" yet don't enjoy or appreciate.
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
You don't have to oppose reading for pleasure and reading for fuller understanding. Some people just get pleasure from getting to the bottom of something, turning it over, finding out how it works, comparing it with other similar things, learning as much about it as they can. I will criticise neither those who read only for enjoyment, nor those with more scholarly inclinations.
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
On a point that was made earlier: If you say that "only a native can fully appreciate poetry" I wont argue, I would just point out that "fully appreciating" poetry or whatever is a difficult task and it is doubtful how many native speakers who read only for pleasure (the majority) fully appreciate what they are reading........
Miles... I hope you will not mind if I use your thougths for our topic of conversation at the dinner table tonight. You make very interesting points and I feel my girls should have these nuggets tucked away in the event they get a question like this on a test one day. :)
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
I am not contradicting the statement that in general only a native can fully understand poetry, just qualifying it, and pointing out that full understanding is rare, even for natives.
Agreed. :|
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Ahhh, another video I have been waiting for someone to post online so that I could share with all of you!!! This is when I start making certain my daughters at least KNOW of these books even if they NEVER read them :instruct: I can just see them at a press conference one day and ... no... I can't have them be as clueless as one of these people :shock:
Quote:
Finish this Russian novel...Crime and ...?
Passion?
No, Crime and... what usually goes with crime?
Vodka? It's Russian!
And of course..
Quote:
What books did Homer write
What?
What books did Homer write?
Oh my God, you mean Homer Simpson?
http://vimeo.com/6959400
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom video clip
Robinson and Crusoe :D
After the movies in the following list were released there was no any way to be anything but "Robinson and Crusoe" :D . Quote:
Bonnie & Clyde
Thelma & Louise
Butch Cassidy & Sundance Kid
Kate & Leopold
Frankie & Johnny
Fanny & Alexander
Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde
Tom & Jerry
Turner & Hooch
Smokey & The Bandit
Harley Davidson & The Marlboro Man
Tristan & Isolde
Romy & Michelle
Tango & Cash
Harold & Maude
Homer & Eddie
Batman & Robin
Mad Dog & Glory
Harry & Sally (When Harry Met Sally)
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
I'm reading Lermontov's A Hero of our Time. It's a great book in my opinion, although for some reason this writer is not so much liked by every Russians (if I remember well, Nabokov doesn't even mention him in his Lectures on Russian Literature). It is concisely written and void of old-style grandiloquent declamations (those are in fact mocked more than once). I like the fact that, as opposed to Pushkin, Lermontov was not *too hardly* influenced by French and French literature and does not sprinkle gallicisms every now and then. If I had to investigate the book's influences I'd rather think of, say, Byron.
Anyway, this book is a very important part of Russian culture, Pechorin's character especially is well-known, to the point that he became some sort of archetype or cliché of some sort. I believe that anyone interested in Russian culture ought to read it.
Also,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
I don't like to read poetry in English.
Have you read Coleridge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by translationsnmru
Rhythm is also very important.
It is indeed. This may be hard to conceptualize for non-Russians, because rhythm is not equally important in every languages (French poetry for example is very different), so if you don't mind I'd like to provide an example.
Опять поминальный приблизился час.
Я вижу, я слышу, я чувствую вас:
И ту, что едва до окна довели,
И ту, что родимой не топчет земли,
И ту, что, красивой тряхнув головой,
Сказала: «Сюда прихожу, как домой».
Хотелось бы всех поимённо назвать,
Да отняли список, и негде узнать.
Для них соткала я широкий покров
Из бедных, у них же подслушанных слов.
О них вспоминаю всегда и везде,
О них не забуду и в новой беде,
И если зажмут мой измученный рот,
Которым кричит стомильонный народ,
Пусть так же они поминают меня
В канун моего погребального дня.
Stress falls on bold vowels. Every verse shares the same rythm, that is: abcdefghijk.
Rockzmom, I've hosted a recording of this made by a professional Russian reader for you to listen. It begins at 0:58. http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=C8C92EF11
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
This may be hard to conceptualize for non-Russians, because rhythm is not equally important in every languages (French poetry for example is very different), so if you don't mind I'd like to provide an example.
Rockzmom, I've hosted a recording of this made by a professional Russian reader for you to listen. It begins at 0:58.
http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=C8C92EF11
Zubr, http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sign/sign0200.gif
Thanks for thinking of me (and of course others)!!
So, this was way cool. I have NEVER heard "professional" Russian poetry before!! I listened to it first and of course I tried to see if I could get a vibe about what it might be about and if I could even match any of the spoken words with the written and "no way Maria" did that happen. BUT, I actually did pick up on the vibe!!! She's a VERY good reader. I know the Google translation is..well... you know, yet after looking at the translation, it appears I did actually get the basic meaning of the poem just by listening to the mood and intonations of her voice!
Thanks so much for sharing this Zubr!!!!
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
What books did Homer write
What?
What books did Homer write?
Oh my God, you mean Homer Simpson?
Of course it should be Homer Simpson. Because that blind and illiterate Greek definitely was unable to write anything... :instruct:
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
If you remember a little while back, younger daughter had her assignment to write a poem with "essence" and a "wow" factor.
WELL... with YOUR help she was able to understand whole "essence" idea much better and she "thought" she understood the "wow" part. It turns out she did not. The teacher did not want the wow to be so much in the writing of the poem, but in the presentation of the poem. Example, one girl said her mom did cartwheels and then the girl actually DID a cartwheel. That was a WOW factor as you were not expecting the girl to do that.
Now when my daughter read her poem, she did place dramatic emphasis/pause on the next to last line.
In any case, my daughter received a "B" for her efforts and here is her poem:
Essence of a Father
The adventures we have are exciting yet sometimes odd;
He can turn a walk in the woods into a trip to a magical forest with creeks turning into raging rivers and branches into swinging vines.
He does not give many kisses or hugs, that just is not his thing;
Yet building for me a cat house, window seat and a swing so I can fly to the moon and oh so much more is how he shows me his love.
Although I am his little girl, he beats me up;
While instructing me in the fine art of wrestling and sparring, yet always letting me win.
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Thought about posting this under Learn English... but as we were talking about the book here... I figured I keep it here.... :unknown:
As I mentioned, older daughter (8th grade/13) had to read "The Hobbit" for English Class. For her final Semester Essay, she had to select a quote from several the teacher provided and then use that quote in the essay and then answer the question "What wisdom does Bilbo discover?" In a well-developed essay, explain his journey to discovery and what he learns about himself as a result. She received a perfect mark of 50 points.
Rubric
5 for Ideas and development- the paper is clear, focuses, and insightful. Relevcant examples and details effectively support the main idea.
5 for Organization - The organization enhances the main idea. The order, structure, and presentation of information effectively move the reader through the text.
10 for Explicitly identified the purpose of your essay
10 previewed the introducory paragraph
10 clearly explained the idea you inteneded to prove
10 avoided using "I" or "MY"
She did have footnotes in the paper for all of the quotes, however they do not come over when I copy and paste here.
Bilbo’s Journey
“The road of life twists and turns and no two directions are ever the same. Yet our lessons come from the journey, not the destination,” claimed Don Williams Jr., and that is ever so true for an unsuspecting well-to-do hobbit, by the name of Bilbo Baggins. During Bilbo’s expedition, Bilbo grows very much as a person (hobbit) from being a shy, timed hobbit to a confident and brave leader. And in the end while he still go back to being a hobbit, giving up most of his gold and getting back to his normal life, he is truly is a different hobbit who came back from his journey.
In the beginning of Bilbo’s story we see him as a kind, mannerly, fat old hobbit who would rather eat (as they have dinner twice a day when they can get it) and blow smoke-rings than go 10 feet from his house. Then one day and old wizard friend named Gandalf comes along and the next thing Bilbo knows, contrary to all his normal homebody ways, he is out on an adventure to find gold guarded by a dragon. Bilbo is not your everyday hobbit as this particular hobbit does have a very interesting bloodline. He is a member of the Took-clan and every so often this clan did in fact go out and have adventures, “They discreetly disappeared, and the family hushed it up.” Bilbo himself had a strong bit of Took in him waiting to wake up and Gandalf knew this as he had had adventures with Old Took, the head of the hobbits. While Bilbo himself professed to Gandalf that he did not want anything to do with adventures, “We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can’t think what anybody sees in them.” Somewhere deep inside of him he really must have wanted to go on the adventure because he had been thinking about it in the morning, “Don’t be a fool, Bilbo Baggins!” And, it did not take much for Gandalf to convince Bilbo to leave his warm comfortable home without even finishing his breakfast and set out on his quest,
“That leaves you just ten minutes. You will have to run,” said Gandalf.
“But--,” said Bilbo.
“No time for that wither! Off you go!”
“To the end of his days Bilbo could never remember how he found himself outside, without a hat, a walking-stick or any money, or anything that he usually took when he when out; leaving his second breakfast half-finished…”
Once Bilbo is on his adventure he begins to change as well as his attitude towards the adventure begins to change. It is no longer this fun and amazing sounding trip that he had heard stories about as a young hobbit, “Anything from climbing trees to visiting elves – or sailing in ships, sailing to other shores!” Bilbo had been captured by trolls and they threatened to skin and eat him, “And can yer cook ‘em? said Tom.
“Yer can try,” said Bert, picking up a skewer.
“He wouldn’t make above a mouthful,” said William, who had already had a fine supper, “not when he was skinned and boned.”
The Bilbo of just a short time ago if having survived this peril would have run quickly back to the Shire and never left his lovely home again. Yet our Bilbo was changing and instead of running away like he would have if he was his normal hobbit self, he helped his companions who had now been captured, he actually stayed and fought the trolls! “Bilbo did his best. He caught hold of Tom’s leg – as well as he could, it was thick as a young tree-trunk- but he was sent spinning up into the top of some bushes.” Bilbo also proved that he was growing less selfish and more willing to give up his possessions to his team members, “I found it on the ground where the trolls had their fight,” he told his companions as he offered them the key he had found. And yet, just as he takes a few steps forward toward growing, he still wants to cling to his old life, “He was thinking once again of his comfortable chair before the fire in his favorite sitting-room in his hobbit-hole, and of the kettle singing.” But then, he would be adventurous again and try things like riding a pony and sleeping in caves. Unfortunately by the end of this time period Bilbo has not completely learned to trust, and give up everything for his companions. For example Bilbo would not give up the ring he found, in fear that his companions would start a fight over it, and he would not be able to keep it, also Bilbo likes the power the ring gives him, “He wanted it because it was a ring of power, and if you slip it on your finger, you were invisible;”
Towards the end of the adventure Bilbo has changed dramatically from the Bilbo we meet at the start of this tale. In the beginning of his adventure Bilbo goes for the promise of enormous wealth, but when he returns home he gives most of his money away because he has now learned that having a peaceful, quiet afternoon and a warm-cooked meal is worth 10 times more than any amount of gold Bilbo could have, “Not far from the rode they found the gold of the trolls, which they had buried, still hidden and untouched. “I have enough to last me my time,” said Bilbo, when they had dug it up “You had better take this, Gandalf. I daresay you can find a use for it.” Also, Bilbo who was just come along for the ride, is now a great leader of the expedition. No longer a shy hobbit but in-charge and strong, “I am Mr. Bilbo Baggins,”…
“Indeed!” said they, “and what would be your business?”
“Whatever it is, it’s my own, my good elves.”…"you will take me along quick to a fire, where I can dry- and then you will let me speak to your chiefs as quick as may be. I have only an hour or two to spare.”
Bilbo Baggins, our homebody little hobbit, experienced a life changing adventure which turned him into a confident leader and a better person. From starting out as not even wanting to leave his cozy little house, to learning how to be a leader, and then to actually become a leader, Bilbo matures all along the way. Bilbo also learns two very important lessons at the end of his journey, that sometimes what you have is already worth more than what you will receive and that anything is possible, even for a little hobbit, “Gandalf looked at him. “My dear Bilbo!” he said. “Something is the matter with you! You are not the hobbit that you were”
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
I love "The Hobbit." :) I now have it in English and I've also got a radio production of it - with music, actors and everything. It's great! And I have to say, rockzmom, your daughter is lucky. I don't know whether it's the teacher or your school system in general but there's no way Russian children could read something like this at age 13 in school - it would be considered too childish or something. Poor guys have to read some really boring stuff. Well, not all of it is boring, but some things could be exchanged for something more interesting. We studied "Crime and Punishment" in the 9th grade, at 14 years old. I did get it, actually, it's not that difficult for that age.
When I was 10 I read "The Three Musketeers" by myself and really liked it, and was really proud of myself because the book is quite long and many of my classmates were still reading very slowly and struggling with much shorter books. So I came up to my literature teacher to share my joy and instead of encouragement I heard: "Well, it's only an adventure book, isn't it?" What a downer. So what are children supposed to read at 10? Nietzche?
So these are my favourite Russian "adult" books. I like children's lit a lot as well, but I'd better put those somewhere else. And I'll probably be back later with my faves of the world's literature but that's gonna be a huuuuge list... :roll: Well, maybe not so huge, actually.
Шолохов "Тихий Дон"/Sholokhov "Quiet Flows The Don" - that's a very long, four-volume saga about the 1917 revolution and how it affected the lives of the Don cossacks. This is 20-th century "War And Peace", but rather more exciting, violent and dramatic. I remember really enjoying its language - they used a lot of words that I'd never heard prior to reading this book, e.g. "хучь". Haven't seen the movie yet, somehow doubt it can do the book justice.
Борис Васильев - "А зори здесь тихие", "В списках не значился"/Boris Vasilyev, "The Dawns Here Are Quiet", "He Was Not Listed" Those are about WWII or the Great Patriotic War. I basically love Vasilyev's prose - it's short, light, modern, completely matter-of-fact, and not devoid of humour.
Антон Чехов - короткие рассказы/Chekhov's humorous short stories. I've got two compilation books of them, they are a real treat. And I don't mean "The Lady With A Dog" and other longer-type stories, but those that are really short - just a page or two, like "The Horse's Surname", "The Letter To A Learned Neighbour", etc.
Гончаров "Обломов"/Goncharov "Oblomov" - a classic about a very lazy man. Don't know why I like it, s'pose it's because I'm lazy :)
Куприн "Поединок"/Kuprin "The Duel" - liked it as a teenager a lot.
Борис Полевой "Повесть о настоящем человеке"/Boris Polevoy "Story of a Real Man" - based on a real story of a WWII fighter pilot. I read it as a teenager and it made a great impression on me.
A non-fiction book I've recently read about Russian women who fought in the Red Army during WWII - Светлана Алексиевич "У войны не женское лицо"/Svetlana Alexievich "War's Unwomanly Face"
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
I love "The Hobbit." :) I now have it in English and I've also got a radio production of it - with music, actors and everything. It's great! And I have to say, rockzmom, your daughter is lucky. I don't know whether it's the teacher or your school system in general but there's no way Russian children could read something like this at age 13 in school - it would be considered too childish or something. Poor guys have to read some really boring stuff. Well, not all of it is boring, but some things could be exchanged for something more interesting. We studied "Crime and Punishment" in the 9th grade, at 14 years old. I did get it, actually, it's not that difficult for that age.
starrysky, you brought up a really good question and you may have answered for me WHY it is "you" Russians have such a wonderful vocabulary and wordsmith so well!
So, let me answer your question about why it is the teacher might have selected this book. For our school district, the teachers have a list of books they may select from and then there are certain books which each child must read as well. Each book is assigned a Lexile score as to how difficult the reading material is and each child has a Lexile reading score range that is update during the school year as they are tested 3 times a year. The school tries to group the children in classes by that Lexile score so when the teacher selects a book, they will ALL be able to read that book and be able to understand/comprehend it.
"The Hobbit" had a Lexile score of 1000. My daughter's class had already read "The Pearl" from that list which had a score of 1010. In that category ("Journeys") at around that Lexile level of 1000, were "Thunder Rolling in the Mountain," "I Heard the Owl Call My Name" & "Pedro’s Journal." So I am guessing the teacher thought the kids would enjoy "The Hobbit" more or it might have been a case of this was the book they had the most copies of!
Here are the links of the list of approved books by grade if you want to look:
8th grade
9th grade note all students must read Romeo and Juliet
10th grade
11th grade
12th grade
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
So, let me answer your question about why it is the teacher might have selected this book. For our school district, the teachers have a list of books they may select from and then there are certain books which each child must read as well. Each book is assigned a Lexile score as to how difficult the reading material is and each child has a Lexile reading score range that is update during the school year as they are tested 3 times a year. The school tries to group the children in classes by that Lexile score so when the teacher selects a book, they will ALL be able to read that book and be able to understand/comprehend it.
"The Hobbit" had a Lexile score of 1000. My daughter's class had already read "The Pearl" from that list which had a score of 1010. In that category ("Journeys") at around that Lexile level of 1000, were "Thunder Rolling in the Mountain," "I Heard the Owl Call My Name" & "Pedro’s Journal." So I am guessing the teacher thought the kids would enjoy "The Hobbit" more or it might have been a case of this was the book they had the most copies of!
Here are the links of the list of approved books by grade if you want to look:
Wow, this is a very elaborate system. See, that's what I like about American education - the stress on the individual approach and the greater freedom for the teacher to choose something that would be more enjoyable for the students. (now, I'm not really sure what articles should be used here. Is it "the freedom", "the teacher" and "the students" in this sentence? Articles are a great stumbling block for most Russians, since we don't have them). The Russian education has a lot of vestiges of the old Soviet system, where it was all uniform - the same standard program for all schools across the country. They are trying to change it and make it conform to the European and American standards - introducing tests and what-not and meeting quite a bit of resistence from the public along the way. I don't know which is better - I have heard that the Soviet system was very good, actually. But I would do away with boredom in school. Too many people just don't care about what they learn and read.
Yes, I see there are some very serious titles on those lists as well. Tolkien would have a high Lexile score, because his prose is not for the faint-hearted, at least in LOTR. :D "The Hobbit" is a bit easier, of course. I like the fact that it's not only American lit but that French, English and German titles are in the mix. In Russian schools it's almost all about Russian literature, which is way too exclusive. I mean, of course, we had "Romeo and Juliette" and some other foreign things but they seemed very rare. Mind you, I'm talking only of my own experience here, perhaps things have changed now. The problem with literature lessons today is that kids don't want to read. I do think it would help to solve the problem if there were more choice, freedom and creativity in our schools and if the best titles of the world literature were included. It's just too boring and ineffective to have to read about characters and events that you don't necessarily care about and relate to, and then have to write a composition about the stuff that you have no thoughts about. The fact that we'll never agree about what stuff should be read at school only shows that the teenager or at least the teacher should be able to choose for themselves.
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Has it ever been that kids wanted to learn something on their own, except on rare occasions? Loosen the reins and straight away you get this:
Quote:
This is great! Not only am I not learning, I'm forgetting stuff I used to know, heh
Quote:
Bart: You know what our homework is? Find a toy and bring it to class.
Marge: Boy, that sounds fun!
Bart: I know, but I'm still not gonna do it.
Quote:
I'm sleepy. Let's go to school. ...
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
Wow, this is a very elaborate system. See, that's what I like about American education - the stress on the individual approach and the greater freedom for the teacher to choose something that would be more enjoyable for the students.
Yes, it is. Our county started using it... oh, about five years ago I want to say. It is called MAPr (Measures of Academic Progress Reading) and it is a computerized testing program. The children read passages and then answer questions. If they get the question wrong, it gives them an easier passage. If they get it correct, it gives them a harder passage. It also tests them on vocabulary as well. So it spits out a report telling teachers and parents how well the child does on: word recognition and vocabulary, literal comprehension: narrative, interpretive comprehension: informational, literary response and analysis. And then based upon that, assigns the child that Lexile score range. So this way, if a child bombs out on say, understanding the main idea of a story, it will bring down their overall Lexile score. HOWEVER, it is an area that the teacher and/or parent can work on with the child to improve. Everyone knows, this is the problem area for the child and everything else is fine. Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
The problem with literature lessons today is that kids don't want to read. I do think it would help to solve the problem if there were more choice, freedom and creativity in our schools and if the best titles of the world literature were included. It's just too boring and ineffective to have to read about characters and events that you don't necessarily care about and relate to, and then have to write a composition about the stuff that you have no thoughts about. The fact that we'll never agree about what stuff should be read at school only shows that the teenager or at least the teacher should be able to choose for themselves.
This is true everywhere! My older daughter is an avid reader and my younger one... well let's just say she and AlexB would get along just great! :friends: However, just recently my younger one FINALLY found an author she loves! James Patterson. He usually writes adult books and he switched over to young adult just for this reason. He wanted to get more kids to read. His series of books called "Maximum Ride" and Daniel X and the new one Witch & Wizard (which just released in UK but will not be out in the US until Dec 25 boo hiss) are VERY popular among the tween/teen set and my younger daughter who NEVER likes to read.... well she read all of them NONSTOP! The first max book is even being made into a movie!
Now about the schools here in the US vs. Russia... I have written about this previously... my daughters attend a magnet school for the performing and creative arts and the teachers there try to make learning as creative as possible. So they don't always have to do written reports. Sometimes they can write a new ending to the book or create costumes and do research about the time period and write a diary as one of the characters. The school itself is also very relaxed. They can chew gum, wear flip flops, all sorts of things that make me go "say what?" because the principal would rather pick her battles on more important issues and keep the kids in school and focused on learning.
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Just came back from parent/teacher conferences for the girls and found out the next book older daughter gets to read for class is.... Animal Farm by George Orwell!! When it was brought up that I am on a Russian Forum, she was soooo happy and told my daughter she better get an "A" for this one because she will be able to ask ALL kinds of questions about Stalin and get lots of help. :wink:
So, how many of you have read this one and what did you think of it?
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Animal Farm -- So, how many of you have read this one and what did you think of it?
It was mandatory to read a book by Orwell for Litterature in school, and then write an essay about it. I picked this book because it was the thinnest....
The pigs on the Animal Farm are representing various people from early Soviet history, and the goings on at the farm are supposed to be an allegory to what happened in the USSR. I imagine this book was probably not available in the bookshops in the USSR..
The concept is fun, but basically the purpose is not to be great litterature (apparently it isn't) but to critisise Soviet communism. Which it certainly does, in a rather entertaining way. The tagline if I remember correctly was "Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others"
My litterature teacher happened to be quite a hard-core socialist and did not appreciate my essay (which ended up being critical of the USSR). She totally trashed it and accused me of having translated some questionable English material instead of writing my own essay. Which I hadn't, at least not completely... Oh well. But every time I hear the name Trotsky, I just think of a bullied pig from Animal farm!
In this day and age it shouldn't be hard to find a complete write-up of this book online.
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Has anyone read anything by this year's Nobel prize winner in Literature?
Herta Müller.
http://english.people.com.cn/mediafi...1977213262.jpg
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Has anyone read anything by this year's Nobel prize winner in Literature?
Herta Müller.
Johanna, I have not ready any of her work... sorry. Have you, and if so what would you recommend??
-------------
Older daughter has now read one of Ray Bradbury's short stories. I remember him very well from my junior high days! At her age we had to read "A Sound of Thunder" and to this day, I remember it very well. She read "All Summer in a Day" and I have the feeling this story will stick with her as much as Thunder has stuck with me.
Here are links to both of these if you wish to read them (if someone can find them in Russian, please post the links for them!):
A Sound of Thunder (English)
http://www.lasalle.edu/~didio/course...of_thunder.htm
All Summer in a Day (English)
http://staff2.esuhsd.org/danielle/En...%20a%20Day.pdf
There are even a short films of both that were made and you can watch them on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkLT57mVnGE A Sound of Thunder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QWmahMdeGUAll Summer in a Day
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
Johanna, I have not ready any of her work... sorry. Have you, and if so what would you recommend??
Nope.... It's the same every year - I usally haven't even heard of the person who won.
But Russians are a bit "different!"
Probably the most book-loving people in the world, according to the reputation at least.. So I thought that someone here might have read something by her.
Or perhaps Bitpicker who is the same nationality as the winner. (Although apparently she grew up in Romania.)
Apparently much of what she writes is about her feelings of being a stranger in Germany despite being a native German speaker. Basically she writes on the theme of alienation and "otherness". For me it's something I can really relate to right now. So I will read her over Christmas I think.
As for the books that your daughter read... Sorry I don't know about them at all... ! :search: :shock:
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Okay, so this was sort of off topic on another thread so I am swining it over here and hoping someone might know the answer!
The Russian folktale Колобок
Roly-Poly: a baked roll which escaped from the house not to be eaten.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolobok
I really recall knowing this story and wiki does not show that it had an English version. They state that it could be The Gingerbread Man, which I don't think that is what I remember. Now, it could be that I recall a Spanish version for some reason as I know the girls learned a number of stories and maybe I picked it up from them?
Anyone have any ideas as to a version of this in either English or Spanish?
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
They state that it could be The Gingerbread Man, which I don't think that is what I remember.
As I read the text of "The Gingerbread Man" I found it to be extremely close to the Russian Kolobok fairy tale. Even the way the bread sings. The English song is just a word to word version of the Russian one. The only differences are: the bread shape, the set of animals willing to eat the bread, and the final scene. In the final scene English fox was just fast enough to catch the boastful bread while the Russian fox used a trick to cheat the bread and catch it. Upon being eaten the English bread cried while the Russian bread had no chances to say even a word.
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Hey, I'm a bit late, but if anyone is interested in Mayakovsky, you can listen to one of his famous poems "Вам" (1915):
http://audiotheater.indeep.ru/sound/mayak.mp3 (2,3 Mb)
The quality is good. On the downside there are a lot of silly and unneeded soundeffects, which can prevent an unprepared listener from feeling the rhyme and energy of the poem.
Вам! (1915)
by Mayakovsky
Вам, проживающим за оргией оргию,
имеющим ванную и тёплый клозет!
Как вам не стыдно о представленных к Георгию
вычитывать из столбцов газет?!
Знаете ли вы, бездарные, многие,
думающие, нажраться лучше как,-
может быть, сейчас бомбой ноги
выдрало у Петрова поручика?..
Если б он, приведенный на убой,
вдруг увидел, израненный,
как вы измазанной в котлете губой
похотливо напеваете Северянина!
Вам ли, любящим баб да блюда,
жизнь отдавать в угоду?!
Я лучше в баре блядям буду
подавать ананасную воду!
(To) You! (1015)
Translation by Anastasia Zabrodina
You, dwelling from orgy to orgy,
Having bathroom and cosy waterclosets,
How dare you to read about George’s laureates
From newspaper columns?!
Do you know, the talentless, the multiple,
How to devour thinking only of,-
Maybe now the legs of lieutenant Petrov
Have been torn out by a random bomb?..
If only he saw, being sent to death,
With wounds all over his body,
How you, with a meatball all over your lips,
Lustfully hum Severianin !
You, loving twats and meals,
Should I give my life to please to?!
I shall better serve pineapple drinks
In a pub to local tarts!
(the poem refers to the WWI and criticise the authorities and "bourgeoisie" in general. It caused quite an uproar when Mayakovsky had read it for the first time (like most of his poems, actually). )
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Translation by Anastasia Zabrodina
What a horrorible translation. George's laureates...Oh, my. :shock:
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by translationsnmru
What a horrorible translation.
I didn't like it either. Especially "tarts" instead of... what stands in the original. :mosking:
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Quote:
Originally Posted by translationsnmru
What a horrorible translation.
I didn't like it either. Especially "tarts" instead of... what stands in the original. :mosking:
Yeah, I agree. I didn't like many things about it either. :o
But it's the only translation I could find (I could try to translate it myself, of course, but... just one word - LAZY :oops: )
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
I was asked by a friend to find and read a book called ABOUT MY LIFE.
Does anyone know of a book by this name? The author? and if it is translated in English? Lastly, where I may buy it to read it?
My friend would not tell me the author, but decided to send me on a quest and search. So far I have only come up with the following:
Author: Nikolai Grech
Title of book: Notes About My Life
Would this be it? Is there a copy in English somewhere? I found I can order it in Russian. However, time does not permit me to translate every passage in order to read it.
Thank you! =)
PS
I have read so far by Tolstoy:
War and Peace
Anna Karenina
Resurrection
Just finished reading:
Nikolai Chernyshevsky's What is to be Done
Any other recommendations on reading Russian literature/
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by emeraldeyez
PS
I have read so far by Tolstoy:
War and Peace
Anna Karenina
Resurrection
Just finished reading:
Nikolai Chernyshevsky's What is to be Done
Did you like anything? :D
Quote:
Any other recommendations on reading Russian literature/
Strugatsky brothers
Mikhail Bulgakov
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Re: Literature Talk: Russian & Non -Discuss/Review/Q&As
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Quote:
Originally Posted by emeraldeyez
PS
I have read so far by Tolstoy:
War and Peace
Anna Karenina
Resurrection
Just finished reading:
Nikolai Chernyshevsky's What is to be Done
Did you like anything? :D
Yes. War and Peace. It was a hard read for me, as prior to this I read more "fluff" than anything. I did that because I wanted to "escape" for a little while and books are like movies to me, just richer and more vibrant.
So when reading War and Peace, it was a way to get "out of the box" or reading "rut" that I was in. I actually had to re-read and go over passages and look back several chapters to understand and make sense of some things.
Anna Karenina was alright. I did not find the book so much about her though. I found it to be more about 2 other characters and thus it created a bit of confusion for me. (to be more honest, having seen the movie (long time ago) really ruined what I "thought" the book was about. The book so so much more, IMHO)
Resurrection - mmmmm - still holding my thoughts on that. May have to give it a re-read.
I actually really liked What Is To Be Done. I liked the way this author wrote and how he kept me interested. I read the book through in one day. I could not put it down. It was interesting how the author would "narrate" or talk to his reading public, then switch back to the story and bring you "into" it. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Quote:
Any other recommendations on reading Russian literature/
Strugatsky brothers
Mikhail Bulgakov
Thank You!