Thread: Ilya Frank Method for Language Learning?

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by starrysky

Оля will correct me, if I'm wrong, I'm no philologist

Guys..... I AM NOT EITHER!!

Are you not?!! I was sure you were -- you know everything about commas! :P

Шерлока Холмса из меня явно не выйдет...

ETA: Today I have finished reading book three of the trilogy by Alexandra Brustein. I have come to really love this trilogy -- though it's a children's book, it is interesting to read for an adult as well -- my mum is also reading it with me, she's now in the middle of the second book and loves it! So I would recommend it to anyone -- it has sufficiently easy grammar, a lot of humour and jucy spoken language, it's amusing and thought-provoking. Though a children's book, its language is quite sophisticated so it might be a bit difficult...

It was written in the 1950s, so in terms of language I think it qualifies as a contemporary book. It is an autobiography, so it tells the story of Brustein herself growing up in 1890-1900s in Vilnius which was part of the Russian Empire before the Revolution of 1917. It might be a bit biased, of course, but it's very humane and talk eloquently about many political issues of the time, including the Dreyfus affair. And it really shows how the revolution came about in Russia.

Here's the text: Book 1 "Дорога уходит вдаль" http://www.lib.ru/PROZA/BRUSHTEJN/doroga_1.txt
Book 2 "В рассветный час" http://www.lib.ru/PROZA/BRUSHTEJN/doroga_2.txt
Book 3 "Весна" http://www.lib.ru/PROZA/BRUSHTEJN/drg3.txt

About the book: http://booknik.ru/reviews/fiction/?id=10759
http://booknik.ru/context/?id=17081

And it's available at ozon.ru http://www.ozon.ru/?context=search&text ... 2%e5%e9%ed

Originally Posted by starrysky

Are you not?!! I was sure you were -- you know everything about commas! :P

Я один год отучилась на филфаке в платном вузе - мне однокурсник (отличник, между прочим) мог прислать смс-ку типа "поздравляю с успешной здачей экзамена". А уж что и как писали у нас не-отличники - вспомнить страшно. Так что о чем вы говорите... Дипломы ничего не значат, особенно сегодня.
А запятые я из художественной литературы, изданной в советское время, выучила. Там всё на месте было.

Well I am trying to organise to use the first "Pelagia" book, by B. Akunin as a parallel text - more or less following the Frank method...

I've already got the Audio and the text in Russian.
I am working on getting the text in English (see Silly Questions topic). Unfortunately there is no English Audio.
EDIT: Yes, there is an English audio, and it is available on Audible. (has not been pirated yet). So I will buy it and share with anyone who is interested.

If a Russian person wants to study the text at the same time, then me and another English speaker can simply record the text chapter by chapter, and upload...

Perhaps it would have been better to follow Zubr's advice and stick with an older classic text which is available for free everywhere and has been recorded in all langauges. But I wanted to try something more modern...

Let's see how it works out....

The two people who are REALLY good at linguistic style are Zaya and Ivan, I think. Probably Bitpicker too....

Personally I only know the basics, and sometimes I ignore it on purpose.

Originally Posted by Johanna

Perhaps you can recommend something that is likely to fit the criteria?[/b] What have you enjoyed yourself? It needs to be interesting enough for me to keep struggling on through difficult grammar and vocabulary... I'd be really grateful for a tip.

I wish I could help, but I've chosen to get into Russian literature from the beginning - I mean chronologically. I plan to read "classical authors" from Pushkin up to soviet times, so I'll probably not be able to discuss modern writers before a couple of years. The only contemporary works in Russian I've read yet are Anna Ahmatova's "requiem" (a poem) and Nina Berberova's "the italics are mine" (an autobiography which you most likely don't want to read, unless you are interested in the life of Russian emigrants in France during Soviet times, and want to learn some anecdotes about Nabokov, Gumiljov, Gor'kij and others).

Originally Posted by starrysky

I read "The Little Prince/Le Petit Prince" by Antoine de Saint-Exupery this way. It was a nice experience. I actually think it was the first book I read in French.

Да, любой, кто решит изучать французский, вначале прочтёт эту книгу. А между тем, мало кто во Франции читал её. Я сам и не читал до того, как мне посоветовала итальянская подруга, которая начала с этой же книги.

Originally Posted by Zubr

Да, любой, кто решит изучать французский, вначале прочтёт эту книгу. А между тем, мало кто во Франции читал её. Я сам и не читал до того, как мне посоветовала итальянская подруга, которая начала с этой же книги.

Правда? Странно. Вроде такая известная вещь.

P.S. I have a question for those people who have read Akunin. Or two questions. First -- OK, these books have been written within the last ten years, but is their language modern? As I understand it, they relate events which happened about a hundred years ago, so while in terms of grammar they might be modern, you certainly won't find words there such as "mobile phone", etc? Instead, the language must include a lot of words that have gone out of use, like "ибо" or the "-с" particle.
Second question -- I don't know what to give my mum for New Year, but she is really into mysteries and detective stories. She has never read Akunin. If I decided to buy her one of his books what would be the best to start with? The one Johanna is going to read about Pelagea?

You can download these. George Orwell's 1984. One in English and one in RU. There are many other books and writers on the other pages.

http://www.orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/russian/
http://www.orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/

Originally Posted by starrysky

ETA: Today I have finished reading book three of the trilogy by Alexandra Brustein. I have come to really love this trilogy -- though it's a children's book, it is interesting to read for an adult as well -- my mum is also reading it with me, she's now in the middle of the second book and loves it! So I would recommend it to anyone -- it has sufficiently easy grammar, a lot of humour and jucy spoken language, it's amusing and thought-provoking. Though a children's book, its language is quite sophisticated so it might be a bit difficult...

It was written in the 1950s, so in terms of language I think it qualifies as a contemporary book. It is an autobiography, so it tells the story of Brustein herself growing up in 1890-1900s in Vilnius which was part of the Russian Empire before the Revolution of 1917. It might be a bit biased, of course, but it's very humane and talk eloquently about many political issues of the time, including the Dreyfus affair. And it really shows how the revolution came about in Russia.

T

This books sounds really interesting. I am not sure if I am ready to read something without parrallel translation, but if I did, this would be perfect. The biographical aspect is fascinating.. I'm making a "mental note" of this, for sure.

We'll see how the Pelagia thing works out, right now I am having some trouble accessing the text... Might have to spend some time in the weekend manually pasting everything into Word.

Originally Posted by Zubr

Я [s:fwgax519]сам и[/s:fwgax519] и сам не читал [s:fwgax519]до того, как мне[/s:fwgax519] пока мне не посоветовала моя итальянская подруга, которая начала с этой же книги.

Interesting to hear about Zubr's experience with reading the Russian classics.
I could never do that - I am too pragmatic and I primarily want to speak with people and use Russian for practical reasons such as work and travelling.

But I really admire people who learn a language out of love for littarature in that language. T

A Swedish girl who is also learning Russian online learned in the same way; she went from no skills straight onto Dostoyevsky etc. She made the comment that she was able to read almost anything but wasn't able to understand a simple dialogue in a film without subtitles...!
Intriguing extreme situation.

My personal view is that I'll pass on the litterature for the time being, but I DO want to be able to participate in a serious discussion and write a simple business letter or personal email without making any serious mistakes.

My concern is that the Russian grammar is so hard that it doesn't matter how good my vocabulary gets... that I'll mess up the grammar regardless.

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by Zubr

Я [s:2jjhqf1m]сам и[/s:2jjhqf1m] и сам не читал [s:2jjhqf1m]до того, как мне[/s:2jjhqf1m] пока мне не посоветовала моя итальянская подруга, которая начала с этой же книги.

Ой, что со мной... Спасибо Оля, я стыжусь своей ошибки с «пока».

Johanna, I think your friend should have used audiobooks. They are *great* for improving your listening comprehension. A few weeks ago a rather famous Russian theater director called Lev Dodin came in Paris and half a dozen of plays were played, all in Russian of course. I could understand most of what was said. As I got used to the actors' voices and speech peculiarities I wouldn't even notice they spoke in Russian. One of the plays (based on Dostoyevski's «Бесы») was 7 hours long. If was wonderful. My English is just too limited to tell you how much we, the audience, loved it. If you go to St-Petersburg someday, his theatre is called «малый драматический театр». Go there - you won't regret it.

Anyway one of the bad side of reading classical is that from times to times you'll use archaisms like saying «полно» when you mean «хватит». But you can still make yourself understood most of the time, I think.

Originally Posted by Zubr

Ой, что со мной... Спасибо Оля, я стыжусь своей ошибки с «пока».

Don't. Your Russian's great. What is language learning without an occasional mistake? Though as a teacher and translator (and a perfectionist to boot) I do hate it when I do mistakes myself.
I absolutely admire you for reading Russian classics in the original. As we say here, "это вам не баран чихнул". I'm working through English classics myself but I don't do it chronologically. Just according to where my fancy leads me next. I hope to get to French lit some time soon -- Balsac, Zola, Hugo, Dumas, Jules Verne... We had a lot of French lit at the uni but I haven't read everything. Herve Bazin is the one writer that I remember really liking. And Robert Merle. But he was easy. I anticipate a lot of hard work with vocabulary -- Harry Potter and Gavalda in French is one thing, Flaubert is quite another... Anyway, reading for one's own pleasure is much more fun than doing homework. *rubbing hands in anticipation*

She made the comment that she was able to read almost anything but wasn't able to understand a simple dialogue in a film without subtitles...!
Intriguing extreme situation.

Hmm... I don't find this surprising. Listening is a very special skill, it doesn't come naturally through just "knowing" the language, it should be trained intensively. You may know the words, but won't recognise them because they're tied with other words in one quick stream of speech. You should accustom your ear to picking separate words out of that flow.
Besides, films may be harder to understand because of special vocabulary, etc. I'd say that talking to ordinary people might be easier. But you'll also need to learn lots of ordinary, everyday words, like the "(rubbish) bin"/"trash can", etc.

My concern is that the Russian grammar is so hard that it doesn't matter how good my vocabulary gets... that I'll mess up the grammar regardless.

Most likely, you'll still be understood, but yes, knowing a bit of good grammar definitely promotes understanding. As with any language, really.