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demography is obviously a key factor to the growth rate of a country.
russian people don't make enough babies (the problem is far worse than, say, germany where it's already severe).
what do you all think? will russia find a way to reverse the tendency (by keeping men who have two babies out of the military draft for instance;))? will asian immigration compensate (the recent figures in immigration are really bad)?
I think I can solve the problem single handedly (but id rather do it old fashion).
I believe a law like that already exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by possopo
Fertile women of Russia, flock to me!
Aren't you an author of "Flirt and the Village" series? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
no one got my pun?
YES! Beautiful fertile woman flock to me!!!
Russians won't make more babies until the wages and lifestyle in Russia improve to the point where they can feed and house 2 babies.
What kind of "growth rate" you mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by possopo
If you're talking about economic growth, this is obviously untrue.
There is popular theory, what, according to some western economists, the "economically rentable population of former USSR is 15-20 mln".Quote:
Originally Posted by possopo
Most frequently these words are attributed to Margaret Thatcher.
Who knows, did she (of some other influental person) said something like this actually? Or it's just a myth?
Russians can feed and house 2 babies. We simply don't want them in such quantities. So the birth rate is dropping, so what? Nations come and go. Been this way since time immemorial.Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
Russia's lack of affordable housing and low wages make having even one baby burdensome.
What do you mean lack of affordable housing? Do you think we live in dugouts?Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
Low wages? Yep, they're low compared to what you have in the US, but as Einie used to say, everything is relative - quality food and consumer goods are much cheaper here in Russia than in the US and we have a wider selection. Someone who earns 12K in Russia can easily afford the same lifestyle you can afford in the US only if you make at least 120K. Having babies isn't burdensome at all, it's simply not in these days, it smacks of the 19th century working class philosophy so much.
The average Russian annual salary is a lot less than 12k and 1 room flats in Moscow start at $50,000 (purchase price, old, no modern remont). The new morgage plan (to help young families) that went into effect this year is still too expensive for most. I know one young couple that has a baby that got a one room flat on this plan but their morgage is $600 each month for the next 15 years. Having babies is not out of fashion, just expensive and hard work. Food is cheaper than in America (I pay about 600p a week for 2 people) but all other consumer goods are almost the same price in Moscow as they are in America.
Well, I certainly didn't mean a bomzh kind of family. I meant a normal family. Anyone who earns less than 12K is a total loser.Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
I find that dirt cheap.Quote:
and 1 room flats in Moscow start at $50,000 (purchase price, old, no modern remont).
Not surprised, it's a ferkin scam, this plan.Quote:
The new morgage plan (to help young families) that went into effect this year is still too expensive for most.
Like I said, that's dirt cheap. Anyone I know could easily afford it. But this plan is a ferkin scam. Personally I prefer upmarket property in respectable neighbourhoods. I don't fancy buying hovels in slum districts.Quote:
I know one young couple that has a baby that got a one room flat on this plan but their morgage is $600 each month for the next 15 years.
It is. I know the latest trends far better than you do. I happen to live in Russia while you've only seen Russia on TV.Quote:
Having babies is not out of fashion
Hard work? Since when is having sex hard work?Quote:
just expensive and hard work.
Of course it is. And a lot healthier too.Quote:
Food is cheaper than in America
No way. 600p is nothing. I spend something like 7000p - 9000p for myself as a very bare minimum (my wife buys her own food) You can't possibly survive on less than a 1000p a day.Quote:
(I pay about 600p a week for 2 people)
Don't know about Moscow (and frankly, I couldn't care less), but in St Pete all consumer goods are of superior quality and cost far less than in America. Last week I bought a superb Loewe TV set for only a coupla thou for my new malachite bathroom.Quote:
but all other consumer goods are almost the same price in Moscow as they are in America.
VM, either you are joking (most probably) or you are completely unaware of economic situation in Russia.
According to you, the overwhelming majority of Russian are total losers. Well may be. But stating that does not help. Russia does not consist of only Msk and SPb, which is good for you and bad for them (the provinces).
But I believe that it is mentality that determines the demographic situatuion, not the economy.
My grandfather had 10 siblings, of which about a half survived (the rest of them died of starvation and diseases) and became adult. A half of 10 is still not bad, isn't it?
In the past, this situation was quite common. Parents tried to produce as much babies as they can in a hope that at least some of them will survive. Well, and they had no contraception.
But now we don't think of our children in terms of numbers, we think in terms of personalities. We prefer not to create a new life at all than to create a bad one.
Scorpio wrote:yes, i mean economic growth. why am i wrong?Quote:
What kind of "growth rate" you mean?
If you're talking about economic growth, this is obviously untrue.
europe's babyboom boosted the economy.
us immigration is boosting the economy.
being a young nation (meaning you have few elders and lots of youngsters) have a major weapon, that is their labour force.
why is china becoming a major actor in the world economy? because there are a lot of chinese.
JB wrote:usually, the poorer you are, the more babies you make. that works for countries (more babies in poor countries) and households (in rich countries, the poor make more babies than the rich).Quote:
Russians won't make more babies until the wages and lifestyle in Russia improve to the point where they can feed and house 2 babies.
so the eastern europeans births' deficit is a huge problem for the economy. they don't fit the theory.
the kremlin issued a survey that says the dramatic russian demography is going to harm russian economy in the next 20 years.
I am well aware of the economic situation in my country and I'm not joking. I maintain that whoever earns less than 12K is a loser and has only himself to blame. I come from a very poor family, but my parents taught me never to sit on my arse doing sh*te, but to get on my bike and go and look for work.Quote:
Originally Posted by pisces
All my mates make well over 12K. I don't know anyone earning less than 12K. The chap that sweeps the streets in our elite neighbourhood makes 14K. Of course, I can't speak about everyone as I clearly do not know every person in this country, but I do know some and I can observe and I can extrapolate.Quote:
According to you, the overwhelming majority of Russian are total losers.
VM, come to Nizhny Novgorod and restart your extrapolations from here. The result will be surprisingly different. If you are aware of economic situation, you should know that our society has very high level of stratification. Wages for equal work in capital (or nearly-capital as SPb) are several times bigger than in regions. I don't complain about this - neither people are born equal nor they ever become equal. It's a decree of nature and not the reason for laments.
And consider that Nizhny Novgorod is the third biggest city in Russia. The situation in smaller towns is even worse. Of course you can say something like "if you're unsatisfied with you income - work hard and move to Moscow or SPb", but entire Russian population physically cannot move to 2 cities. And even if it could, this huge human resource supply would drop the wages to the same average level.
pisces, I was living in the country, not in St Pete when I made it big on the Forex market for the first time. Your location has nothing to do with your success.
P.S. People who are used to sitting on their backsides all day will come up with all kinds of explanations of why they're so poor. You know, I've heard their stories, I've had them up to here.
I personally do not know anybody who earns less than 12K. And I see more than 100 thousand cars in 200 thousand town... Even in buses I see people in furs, almost everybody has cell phone, and that's in one of Russian distant regions.
Of course things I mentioned aren't really a luxury, but where's total poverty we're told about? I don't really know.
Sorry, guys, but what does K in 12K mean? :oops:
12K = 12,000 (12 thousand)
Thank you, translations.nm.ru.
I find the world to be over-populating for its own good. I'd welcome a low birth-rate through-out the world. But I guess unless all other countries also have fewer people, you can be left behind economically. But in the longrun, over-population is a detructive thing. It's countries with high birth-rates that should be rethinking its effects on the world on a grand scale. Lower population is actually a positive, if the whole world is doing it. The world has well overstepped the balance, as far as I'm concerned. It's not Russia that needs to change, it's everyone else.
Well look at china, and how they took care of the problem. One child law, pregnancy tests every three months in the country side. Sure their population growth is going down but watch how messed up their society will be when a whole country of only children growns up, not to mention the strain it places on everyone of them to take care of and to pay for their parents retirements when they grow older. Engineering populations can be just as destructiveQuote:
Originally Posted by brett
A decreasing birth rate can result in financial problems and a change in a country's lifestyle and culture. Less babies = less future workers = less future income for the country to use for pensions, defense, maintenance and improvements. A change in culture can occur when people from other countries come in to fill the worker gap. So while a decrease in birthrate is good for overpopulated countries like China, it can spell disaster for underpopulated countries like Russia.
Try looking at the rest of the world, for example Africa or most muslim countries. They all have a very high birth rate. But this doesn't help them being richer. This only helps them to become poorer.Quote:
Originally Posted by possopo
Not to mention other totally insignificant factors, like powerful political system, wise leaders, political stability and most important low life expenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by possopo
Scorpio wrote:i fully disagree. you have to handle well a high demography but it's definitely positive for the economy.Quote:
Try looking at the rest of the world, for example Africa or most muslim countries. They all have a very high birth rate. But this doesn't help them being richer. This only helps them to become poorer.
arab countries and indonesia will rise eventually.
africa has to face the problem of aids.
да, наверняка. Овощи, например, очень выгодно…Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
однако, к сожалению, стоимость пива в Китае такая же, как в России. :(
These countries had more than enough time to "rise". They have not because of an "education" problem. This is why there is aids and superstition in Africa.Quote:
Originally Posted by possopo
DDT wrote:such words are scarying me. don't worry, these parts of the world will eventually find their way to development.Quote:
These countries had more than enough time to "rise". They have not because of an "education" problem. This is why there is aids and superstition in Africa.
if lack of education is ignorance, then, yes, africa has a problem.
but always remember, russia and the ukraine are, according to the unesco i guess, the countries where the epidemy is growing faster :?
They seem to have another mentality in some parts of Africa. My cousin runs a very small a non-profit mission in a small African nation. Recently her husband was contacted by guerrillas and told he must pay them a large sum of money or he would be taken captive. He told them that he did not have that kind of money and they were very upset with him. He was eventually able to negotiate down to a small amount of money. The funny part is that when he paid them off they gave him a receipt.
It is one thing making a girl pregnantQuote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
It is another to raise a child
I agree with you VM on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
But you got to admit that 50 years of hardcore communism does not help...
Communism? Who had communism? We were building communism but we never had it, what we did have was our own (I think superior) version of socialism. On a slightly different note: it's not you who was brought up in Russia, you have no idea what it was like for me and my people. No offence, but all you know is the muck your gov't's proper gander officers stuffed your head with. My advice is this: go get yourself reborn in the Russia of the 1950s and grow up as a Soviet Citizen. Then we'll talk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Wouldn't that be interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
It's like. MOM, I'm going to get myself reborn! i wont be home for dinner tonight!
OK Timmy! have fun!
Well it was not superior since it has disappeared.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
And anyway you were thinking that you were building communism (which is an utter utopia, just look at the reason why humans are what they are.... GUESS WHAT???? It is competition and the failing of the weak that made you the human you are.).
On another note have you seen the Lord of the Rings? Then you should know that Power corrupts after awhile. And you would know your country was most of the time a dictaroship where freedom was restricted.
I do have an idea. I know an Ukrainian who swears to me Soviet times were way better during soviet times. But you know what? She was a member of the party!!! How biased is that view? How can you have a balanced opinion when you are part of the privileged class... You can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
She acknowledged however how inefficient was the soviet economic system. A centralized management is terribly inefficient. She told me about the free water supply in her free flat.. oh yea.. I'm happy to work in my country to help at the liberalization of the inefficient, slow, old and clunky electricity market in my country. State own companies tend to get fat, slack and lazy. Yeah now that COMPETITION is coming in thanks to the liberalization of the energy market, there is a lot of changes and reshuffling. Yeah you are right total losers are left employed, but this dynamic makes winners have more jobs heh.
I'm totally convinced educated citizen controled capitalism is the best system. And it is no wonder to me that the soviet system lost to the US capitalist system. And I'm happy the US invaded my country. I don't really care. That's thanks to their invasion (big stretch but It can be done) I'm educated and that I have an interesting job. It is also thanks to the US the world has a bright future, a future where human will be able to be totally free and choose their own nature, emotions and future. Now you will probably think I'm a fool, well so be it, but before making up your mind, unless it is already done (heh VM the KGB agent), google "transhumanism"... ultimate freedom.
You are not helping your country in living in lalala land. Please face the reality.
by the way while you are talking about "gov't's proper gander officers". We don't have them here. It is sooo ironic you bring up this issue.
And please stop playing the KGB agent ;). Ah yea and if you want, we can argue on the subject face to face... feel free to drop in my free country :), if you manage to get a visa of course (i heard russian students were refused a visa for Bratislava)
kthx gg :lol:
Mordan [/i]
Mordan
Being a memeber of the party didn't make you part of a privileged class in the Soviet Union at all. This just goes to show how little you actually know and understand about my country. Only being waaaaaaaay up the party ladder would have made her part of a "privileged" class. Go and discover some true facts about my country and stop drawing conclusions based on things you basically make up.Quote:
But you know what? She was a member of the party!!! How biased is that view? How can you have a balanced opinion when you are part of the privileged class... You can't.
That's entirely her own assessment and I disagree with her. Our economic system was very efficient indeed and superior to any other nation's.Quote:
She acknowledged however how inefficient was the soviet economic system.
I disagree. It is the ultimate you can gain in efficiency. Unless, of course, it's being handled by complete muppets.Quote:
A centralized management is terribly inefficient.
She was having you on. At no point did anyone in the Soviet Union have "free water supply" or "free flats", even high-ranking party officials. (You can take that from me, Mordon)Quote:
She told me about the free water supply in her free flat.
You have a different mindset where you come from. State ownership wouldn't work for you.Quote:
State own companies tend to get fat, slack and lazy.
I disagree.Quote:
I'm totally convinced educated citizen controled capitalism is the best system.
It never did. All the old party bosses are in their places. The same people as during the Soviet Times. The Soviet system did not loose, it is simply putting on new clothes. You remind me of the French of 1812 who were triumphant when Mr Koutouzoff let them have Moscow, but after that retreated in order to deal a fatal blow to Napoleon's army. Russia is full of surprises, but it takes one with a deep knowledge of our culture to understand that. You do not have that knowledge.Quote:
And it is no wonder to me that the soviet system lost to the US capitalist system.
You're a traitor, me lad.Quote:
And I'm happy the US invaded my country. I don't really care.
You'd make a perfect slave, Mordan. I'll make a note of that.Quote:
That's thanks to their invasion (big stretch but It can be done) I'm educated and that I have an interesting job.
Likely story.Quote:
It is also thanks to the US the world has a bright future, a future where human will be able to be totally free and choose their own nature, emotions and future.
Already have one (a multiple entry business visa) and I'm not a student.Quote:
if you manage to get a visa of course (i heard russian students were refused a visa for Bratislava)
Why would a "civilized" country do that, deny students entry visas?Quote:
(i heard russian students were refused a visa for Bratislava)
Playing a KGB agent? What are you talking about. (I can see you didn't do your homework, for the KGB is no more)Quote:
And please stop playing the KGB agent
You do matey, you do. I even used to know one personally. (We would sometimes play squash together when I was doing business in Antwerp)Quote:
by the way while you are talking about "gov't's proper gander officers". We don't have them here.