demography in russia

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Originally Posted by Mordan

Typical of russian arguing strategy to reverse the question against the one who asked in the first place.

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To know what is typical of our "arguing strategy" as you put it, you should first live among us for 10 - 15 years and only then draw your conclusions. Otherwise it's nothing but labelling.

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Nevertheless you non-answer shows the irony.

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There is no irony involved.

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But the main point holds. One should not based his opinion on History with just a single source of information.

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That is correct. But did I ever suggest we should do so?

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While in the USSR there was only the official line of thought

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Again naivity at its utmost. Take pills or something, you need to get the effects of your country's brainwashing campaigns out of your digestive system somehow.

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in the West there are, I think, more than one source of information concerning History.

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Bald-faced lies, barefaced lies, blatant lies, brazen lies, downright lies, monstrous lies, outright lies, transparent lies, whopping lies. Which pack of lies do you prefer? Choose freely.

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Historians in the West are free to battle their line of thoughts without the interference of the political police.

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Ask yourself this question - who benefits from this? There's no free nothing in this world, everything's under someone's influence.

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[quote:13gcna93]

in the West there are, I think, more than one source of information concerning History.

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Bald-faced lies, barefaced lies, blatant lies, brazen lies, downright lies, monstrous lies, outright lies, transparent lies, whopping lies. Which pack of lies do you prefer? Choose freely.
[/quote:13gcna93]

:) At least in the west we have plenty of choice. While in the USSR you had the "official lie" and that was it.

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[quote:13gcna93]Historians in the West are free to battle their line of thoughts without the interference of the political police.

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Ask yourself this question - who benefits from this? There's no free nothing in this world, everything's under someone's influence.

[/quote:13gcna93]

What was the book I read about a russian journalist that got sent to the goulag because he did not write as many STALIN IS GREAT as he should have written in his paper of his. Jeez wake up

Here in the West we do have the money power, meaning that with enough money you can ask someone to write whatever you want. But understand that here in the West, if someone wants to know the truth, he won't have the political police in his back. the West tends to be a self organizing society where governement is controlled by the citizens.

At least we have our different historical theories that are free to clash together. And it benefits only the System in which we live. And what you have to get into your head is that the System is ultimately controlled by me, you , my friends... the citizens. Who controlled the USSR at the end of the day? The undying communist Party!!!!

You must live in a different West from the one I live in, buddy.

Or maybe the colour of your specs is just a bit rosier than mine.

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Originally Posted by Mordan

At least in the west we have plenty of choice.

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And who gives a hoot? A lie is a lie, no matter what colour the wrapping paper it comes in is.

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While in the USSR you had the "official lie" and that was it.

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Says who? Says someone who's never lived in the USSR to someone who has.

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What was the book I read about a russian journalist that got sent to the goulag because he did not write as many STALIN IS GREAT as he should have written in his paper of his.

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That was a ...ing mickey mouse book, stop reading such books.

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Jeez wake up

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It's you who should wake up. Wake up and smell the coffee - you have been fed a pack of lies, a pack of lies about a great country you have never even been to.

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But understand that here in the West, if someone wants to know the truth, he won't have the political police in his back.

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I knew you were a naive person but I didn't think you had been brainwashed to such an extent.

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the West tends to be a self organizing society where governement is controlled by the citizens.

At least we have our different historical theories that are free to clash together. And it benefits only the System in which we live. And what you have to get into your head is that the System is ultimately controlled by me, you , my friends... the citizens. Who controlled the USSR at the end of the day? The undying communist Party!!!!

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Man, stop it, I'll wet myself laughing. YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER YOUR COUNTRY'S POLITICAL SYSTEM - you are a nothing, a discardable part in an enormous Heath Robinson contraption.

More blood!!! Fight! Fight!

Anyway, VM, do you not agree that there has been quite some bias in the Russian media throughout the USSR's time of having fun? How does that saying go? В Правде нет известиях, в известии нет правды.

I agree that the west is no better: McCarthy, Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, Nixon, etc.

To a person who has lived in the USSR, I have a question I have always wondered. Is it true that they removed Trotsky from the picture with Stalin, or was the story invented by the West? I am being sincere.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

More blood!!! Fight! Fight!

Is it true that they removed Trotsky from the picture with Stalin, or was the story invented by the West? I am being sincere.

Thanks

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I don't know about that specific picture, but my guess would be that it is true. I have seen many other examples where photos of Stalin have been edited to make him look taller, or with different arm gestures.

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Vending Machine, please..... You are starting to be offensive with the way you are putting down other people's opinions.

Besides, if your opinions are important to you, you would realize that the best way to get people to understand them is to show that you respect theirs as well. Otherwise you are just being confrontational.

BTW, you won't see me getting defensive when a foreigner criticizes American policy. There is no rule that you have to live here to have a valid opinion about America. Historians have valid opinions about societies centuries ago, yet of course no one today could have lived in them. Why doesn't that same logic apply here, VM?

Yes, it is much easier to hide behind the "if you don't live here, then shut up" logic, but isn't the whole point of an English/Russian board to foster better understanding between peoples of different countries?

If you agree, I ask you to think if your tone is working towards this goal.

If you disagree, than what are you doing here?

Here is an example of a couple of pics:

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~hick0088/clas...101/false.html

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Originally Posted by Geoduck

Historians have valid opinions about societies centuries ago, yet of course no one today could have lived in them. Why doesn't that same logic apply here, VM?

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The more ancient society we study, the less our opinion is biased by our current political views and recent events we witnessed. Studies of ancient history are based mainly on facts, while studies of modern history is based on myths.

Western studies of USSR are highly influenced by atmosphere of the Cold War. The same with modern Russia. Result: almost everything written by westerners about Russia is lie. Tens of millions killed by Stalin blah blah blah, famine blah blah blah, 50% of GDP on defence blah blah blah, poor peaceful chechens blah blah blah evil Russians blah blah blah.

Everyday experience of people contradicts to western books, that's where "if you don't live here, then shut up" logic has its root.

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I agree that the west is no better: McCarthy, Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, Nixon, etc.

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If those are the best examples that you could come up with then I'm afraid you have already lost this fight!

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Originally Posted by DDT

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I agree that the west is no better: McCarthy, Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, Nixon, etc.

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If those are the best examples that you could come up with then I'm afraid you have already lost this fight!

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Uh... Ari Fleischer! lol!

[quote=Alex_Ivanov]

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Originally Posted by Geoduck

Studies of ancient history are based mainly on facts, while studies of modern history is based on myths.

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I think you could convince just as many people of the opposite. As far as I can tell, there is no way you can actually draw a distinction between history and the present.

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Originally Posted by "Alex_Ivanov":ir881aiv

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Originally Posted by Geoduck

The same with modern Russia. Result: almost everything written by westerners about Russia is lie. Tens of millions killed by Stalin blah blah blah, famine blah blah blah, 50% of GDP on defence blah blah blah, poor peaceful chechens blah blah blah evil Russians blah blah blah.

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[/quote:ir881aiv]

Where you have inserted "blah blah blah" represents the times when you should have been paying attentetion in school, and not plugging your ears.

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Originally Posted by Geoduck

Where you have inserted "blah blah blah" represents the times when you should have been paying attentetion in school, and not plugging your ears.

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Thanks to my school, I can distinguish lie from truth. That's a very important feature, which is not common at the West, unfortunately.

Concerning Stalin, there're two usual points of lie in western sources:

1. Overestimated numbers. Who can seriously take 20M as number of Stalin's victims (Robert Conquest, his estimate isn't highest, btw), if it contradicts to demographic data and common sense?

2. Different approaches to events of Stalin's time and to similar events from the past. Why great famine of 1932-1933 is man-made, and great famine of 1601-1603 is explained by "bad harvests"?

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Thanks to my school, I can distinguish lie from truth. That's a very important feature, which is not common at the West, unfortunately.

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Where exactly do you get your ideas about "the west". "The west" is a very diverse place, which west are you talking about? You know, as for myself, I can't speak very highly about highschool education in the west. However, I know that may not be the case for every single highschool across America. Also, I have had some absolutely excellent college professors. The college experience in the west is much different than the highschool experience.