Thread: 1000$ - much or little?

Originally Posted by Ramil

In my case it's been 5%/95% up until recently.

Сдается мне, кредита тебе не получить ни в каком банке. =)

Originally Posted by Johanna

This is a HUGE scam and you are saying that all companies do it... Shocking corruption! (What about State employers, like schools and hospitals, or foreign companies?)

Imho Ramil just scares you. =) That black/white stuff works only in small business.

Originally Posted by Johanna

I still don't understand how this black/white salary thing actually works.

I used to work in a foreign company some years ago (shareholders were Italian, Spanish and Dutch) and it (the company) pretended that it's working "all in white". "We are Western company, we pay all the taxes and salaries are all oficial" - that's they said to me right before I was finally employed. And then I started to work there it turned out that "white" part is only fixed part of salary, i.e. оклад. The variable part, i.e. bonus (wich were usually even greater part), was paid "in black", moreover, it was paid not by employer company itself (witch didn't have so-called "black accounting"), but it was it's Russian distributor companies, who paid the "black part" to the employers of the main Western company. A fine example of Western hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by Johanna

I still don't understand how this black/white salary thing actually works.
I mean, the companies have to use financial auditors, don't they?

There's an 'unofficial' flow of cash. This is deals without signing official papers, logging them in official books and declaring them aftewards.

Originally Posted by Johanna

This is a HUGE scam and you are saying that all companies do it... Shocking corruption!

That's not corruption, just tax-avoiding.

Originally Posted by Johanna

(What about State employers, like schools and hospitals, or foreign companies?)

They don't pay black salaries.

Originally Posted by Johanna

And do you have to negotiate about how much of your salary is white vs black?

Well, sometimes. This happens when an applicant wants to receive a bank loan.

Actually, this 'black salaries' phenonmen is been shrinking since no big business can work like this, but it'll take decades to limit it.

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Originally Posted by Ramil

In my case it's been 5%/95% up until recently.

Сдается мне, кредита тебе не получить ни в каком банке. =)

Ага, ни в каком Я - нищеброд )))

Originally Posted by Johanna

This is a HUGE scam and you are saying that all companies do it... Shocking corruption! (What about State employers, like schools and hospitals, or foreign companies?)

Imho Ramil just scares you. =) That black/white stuff works only in small business.

I work for a big company (branches in 22 cities, 10000+ employees)

[quote=Zombie Acorn][quote="Оля":1eg2fnjf]

Originally Posted by "Zombie Acorn":1eg2fnjf

it seemed like they didn't have housing districts and everyone just lived in stacked apartments, is that true?

That's true, and not only for Moscow; but what's wrong about it? It's absolutely normal in Russia.[/quote:1eg2fnjf]

...

I think in America apartments have a "temporary" feel to them, most people want to buy a house and move out if they can afford it. It might just be a culture difference.[/quote:1eg2fnjf]

Sorry for retrieving an old post, I just cannot help commenting on it.

I am sure there is something of a cultural difference. But maybe the things are changing now. However, I will only express my personal opinion.

Yes, I do not understand the people who want to buy a house and move out of the city. I've been living in "stacked" apartments in an urbanized city since my very birth. And this living style has been always associated with the "urban", "civilized", "modern" living style for me. Living in a 1-2 - storey private house is associated with "rural", "peasant" living style. Russian rural areas were considered to be much poorer, less-educated, uncivilized in the Soviet years of my childhood (70's and 80's).

Moreover, first I lived in an apartment on the 7-th floor of a 9-storey building, while the most of buildings in our district were only 5-storey ones (until I was 9). And I was very proud of living in taller, more modern building than many of my neighbour fellows. Then my family moved to another district of newly built apartment blocks, and I lived on the 7-th floor of a 12-storey building. That made me even more proud , however I used to envy some of my classmates who lived on 10-th or even 12-th floor. BTW, 9, 12 and 16 floors were the most standard Soviet-era apartment blocks. Our city had only a few 16-storey buildings that time, therefore I thought it is very "cool" to live in Moscow, where much taller buildings existed.

The USA have always been associated with skyscrapers for me first of all! I dreamed of visiting that country, I thought it would be so great to see New York City or Chicago with more than a hundred - floored towers. Lucky is a man who lives so high! Yes, that what I was thinking about in my childhood.

And this impression still works for me.
Now I am renting an apartment with my wife because we wanted to separate from my parents. It's on the 9-th floor of a 12-storey building. One of my requirements to a real-estate agency was the apartment should not be lower than on the 7-th floor, because I would not like to move to a lower floor than I used to live all my life.

I had a business trip to the USA in 2008 (I worked 4 months in Kansas). The office was in a small town of Overland Park, which reminded me a village (in spite of the living conditions inside). My colleagues and I used to visit Kansas City or some other places on weekends. However, once upon a time, we were traveling somewhere by car and we were passing a 1-storey settlement area in suburbs. I said to my colleagues: "Look! That's like a village. Is it the USA at all?" They answered: "You do not understand! It is the American dream, to have one's own private house and to live out of an urban area" Then I replied: "I would never live in such an area even if I was offered a lot of money for changing my mind! If I were an American multi-millionaire, I would by an apartment in a skyscraper on Manhatten instead. And sure, that should be on the highest floor!"

Yes, I've visited both NYC and Chicago. They are great!

A private housing area with its 1-2 - storey houses still reminds me of the 19-th century. I do not mind its inner conditions too much. I just believe that the 20-th (and especially the 21-th) century is the time of skycrapers, urbanized infrastructure etc. When I travel abroad, I always try to stay in the tallest hotel if I have a choice.

That is my personal attitude to the question. I do not think there are many people thinking the same way. However, may be it'll drop some light on the idea.

[quote=Zombie Acorn][quote="Оля":3flpynnn][quote="Zombie Acorn":3flpynnn]it seemed like they didn't have housing districts and everyone just lived in stacked apartments, is that true?[/quote]
That's true, and not only for Moscow; but what's wrong about it? It's absolutely normal in Russia.[/quote:3flpynnn]

...

I think in America apartments have a "temporary" feel to them, most people want to buy a house and move out if they can afford it. It might just be a culture difference.[/quote:3flpynnn]

I expressed my personal opinion in the previous post.
I'd like to add some objective facts, however.

1. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_blocks"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_blocks[/url]
I am not sure if external quotes are allowed on the forum, but it's a very short one:
"Russia is currently undergoing a dramatic buildout, growing a commercially-shaped skyline. Russians, both poor and wealthy, from Soviet time had conserved the impression of prestige about Tower blocks itself."

2. In Russian, the word for "house" (дом) is usually more generic than in English: basically, any building (including both a small rural house and a modern skyscraper) can be called дом in Russian. We do not usually use special terms for apartment blocks, they are just "houses" for us. The typical address system in Russia is City - Street - House number - Apartment number.

Originally Posted by Basil77

...but it was it's Russian distributor companies, who paid the "black part" to the employers of the main Western company. A fine example of Western hypocrisy.

THIS I have no problem understanding. The Western corporate corruption is certainly there too. There are many ways for them to get huge rewards over to those they want to reward, without paying too much taxes. They just had a bit longer to refine the methods.

I have heard that most of the famous auditors like Ernst & Young and the likes are swarming like bees to the honey to Moscow. And they are passing all of the big Russian companies and clearing them as safe investments. Interesting.


THANKS ALL FOR THE EXPLANATIONS ABOUT THIS.

Originally Posted by Ramil

I work for a big company (branches in 22 cities, 10000+ employees)

Согласись, это редкое исключение из правил. К тому же, если вы не поделены на более мелкие филиалы, то ваш комсостав состоит из отчаянных ребят. =) Стоит кому-нибудь из уволенных обидеться и накатать телегу про уход от налогов... Нужен зиц-председатель. =)

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Originally Posted by Ramil

I work for a big company (branches in 22 cities, 10000+ employees)

Согласись, это редкое исключение из правил. К тому же, если вы не поделены на более мелкие филиалы, то ваш комсостав состоит из отчаянных ребят. =) Стоит кому-нибудь из уволенных обидеться и накатать телегу про уход от налогов... Нужен зиц-председатель. =)

Нет, просто все кушать хотят. И ОБЭП, и налоговая и пр. шушера.
На самом деле, все, кому надо - в курсе. А обидеться - ну и что? Уже были прецеденты, доказать-то ничего нельзя. Мало ли что обиженный работник наклевещет. А так - вот отчётность, вот результаты проверок, всё чисто.
И на самом деле это не такое уж и исключение. В крупных компаниях, конечно же, с зарплатой не парятся как у нас (обычно), но "черных" схем хватает. Тут и обналичка, и занижение таможенной стоимости ввозимых товаров, и оффшоры и махинации с НДС - обычно всё это - нормальный набор инструментов российских финансистов. Да и с зарплатой - лишние 26% (при сохранении уровня взяток на прежнем уровне) платить никто не хочет.
Нас просил руководитель посчитать картину, если перейти на "белую" з/п, а потом посмотрел и сказал - вот что я сейчас этих уродов всех (контролирующие органы) кормлю, что потом буду кормить, так зачем же мне ещё и в бюджет лишние деньги платить? Ведь не платить *ИМ* уже не получится, какой бы ты "белый" ни был.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

Yes, I've visited both NYC and Chicago. They are great!

A private housing area with its 1-2 - stor[s:3nkx8sl6]e[/s:3nkx8sl6]y houses still reminds me of the 19-th century. I do not mind its inner conditions too much. I just believe that the 20-th (and especially the 21-th) century is the time of skycrapers, urbanized infrastructure etc. When I travel abroad, I always try to stay in the tallest hotel if I have a choice.

That is my personal attitude to the question. I do not think there are many people thinking the same way. However, maybe (one word) it'll drop some light on the idea.

Боб Уайтман, about your thoughts on living in apartments or actually wanting to live in the penthouse, vs. a single family home. I've lived in single family homes, a dorm room on the 15th floor in a major city, a castle turret (for real... I rented out the room of an old castle for about a year), bottom floor apartments and top floor apartments and many other housing arrangements! And I must say, I have always found advantages and disadvantages to each one of them. The reasons many people don't like apartment living is exactly the reason many love apartment living, the close proximity of PEOPLE! The noise. The smells. The chance of fires or theft. Living in a single family home, well, once you get used to not having the pounding noise of radios, TVs, screaming kids or fighting couples, it can be really nice. But then again, when you are all alone and want company on your acres of land, you might miss those annoying sounds!

BTW, People in NYC LEAVE the city on the weekends to go to the "country" and don't you do the same with your Dachas?

Originally Posted by rockzmom

The reasons many people don't like apartment living is exactly the reason many love apartment living, the close proximity of PEOPLE! The noise. The smells. The chance of fires or theft.

In a good house you don't hear noise from your neighbours. And of course no smells!! I never had the "smells" experience, and I lived in many various houses. As for theft, it's a bit funny - isn't it a single-standing one-storeyed house what has more risk to be robbed?? If you live on the 10th floor in a big house with a lot of locks, from the entrance door intercom to the lock in the front door of your flat, and the house has a concierge, and your windows are impossible even to peep in from the street, and your door is a solid metallic one... And why do you think the thief will choose you, particularly? If you don't want to have a company in an apartment building, you don't have it!!! You even have a right not to open the door for anyone, even for the police, if you don't want to! The only thing you need to do is saying 'Goog day' to your neighbours when you meet them in a lift which I don't find very hard.
Well, I just suppose that the situation about American and Russian apartment buildings must be just quite different... Probably in America they're just worse...

I quite voluntarily live in a block of flats, a rather nice one.
I agree that it is important to have good insulation so that noise form the neighbours don't disturb you. I practically never see any of my neighbours or hear any sounds from them.

I'm interested to hear what happened to public housing in Russia after the change to market economy. Someone said that everyone owns their own flat. That must be a total change to Soviet times. How could people suddenly find money to buy their flats and who did they actually buy them from? Did they get discount if they already lived in a place? Did lots of people lose their flats?

Was their a central queue for flats before that? What happened with the transformation?

Sweden has this type of old system for public housing (not private..) and frankly speaking the system is outdated insane and wildly unfair and unpractical, not to mention subject to cheating. But no government dares changing it because they would never be re-elected if they did... And you could get VERY lucky or get a great flat for life, for a very low rent..

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by rockzmom

The reasons many people don't like apartment living is exactly the reason many love apartment living, the close proximity of PEOPLE! The noise. The smells. The chance of fires or theft.

In a good house you don't hear noise from your neighbours. And of course no smells!! I never had the "smells" experience, and I lived in many various houses. As for theft, it's a bit funny - isn't it a single-standing one-storeyed house what has more risk to be robbed?? If you live on the 10th floor in a big house with a lot of locks, from the entrance door intercom to the lock in the front door of your flat, and the house has a concierge, and your windows are impossible even to peep in from the street, and your door is a solid metallic one... And why do you think the thief will choose you, particularly? If you don't want to have a company in an apartment building, you don't have it!!! You even have a right not to open the door for anyone, even for the police, if you don't want to! The only thing you need to do is saying 'Goog day' to your neighbours when you meet them in a lift which I don't find very hard.
Well, I just suppose that the situation about American and Russian apartment buildings must be just quite different... Probably in America they're just worse...

Оля,
A couple of corrections:

If you don't want to have ____ company in an apartment building, you don't have it!!! *** No "a" there.

The only thing you need to do is to say__ 'Good day' to your neighbours when you meet them in a lift which I don't find very hard.

***"saying" should be "say" used that way.
***Maybe "Goog" is a British English word?

I have not lived in an apartment building for years so cannot give an opinion of the conditions.

Scott

I'm interested to hear what happened to public housing in Russia after the change to market economy. Someone said that everyone owns their own flat. That must be a total change to Soviet times. How could people suddenly find money to buy their flats and who did they actually buy them from? Did they get discount if they already lived in a place? Did lots of people lose their flats?

After the coup in the early nineties people were granted a right to possess (privatize) the flats the lived in.
The ownership was just transferred from the municipalities to people for free except for a small fee (toll) that one had to pay to the state for property registration.

Was their a central queue for flats before that? What happened with the transformation?

Yes, there was a queue for flats. After the transformation it remained (as far as I know) but the probability of getting a flat dropped off dramatically and the queue faded away on its own.

A man's home is his castle. Very American thing to say. I felt the same when I lived on a sailboat. I loathe apartments. I think I will replace my lawn with tobacco this year. Why? Because I can. I'll leave the tulips though.

Originally Posted by Johanna

I'm interested to hear what happened to public housing in Russia after the change to market economy. Someone said that everyone owns their own flat. That must be a total change to Soviet times. How could people suddenly find money to buy their flats and who did they actually buy them from? Did they get discount if they already lived in a place? Did lots of people lose their flats?

During the Soviet times people just got their flats for free, for examle in my town a worker who just came to work on a plant had to work there for about 5 years to "recieve" a flat and the size of the flat depended of the size of his family. If he had a wife and 2 children he could recieve a 3-room apartment (3 living rooms, a kitchen, a bathroom, a toilet and a hall, and usually a balcony). During these 5 years he had to live in a hostel, wich was given to him by the employing plant right after he started to work. There were also so-called "cooperative" buildings, there people could partially pay for the flats if they wanted to get a flat sooner, but they weren't very widespread. After our country change to market economy the people, who lived in such flats got the right to become owners of the flats for free. Of course there were the people (not so many) who loose their flats, but they were mostly the ones, who, after they became owners, were forced to sell the flat by criminals. Many people still haven't become owners of the flat there they live in because they are afraid that when the "privatizing" campain will end in 2013 (it supposed to end in 2010 but it was prolonged recently), the state will greatly increase tax for owning a real estate (today it's incredible low).

Originally Posted by rockzmom

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

A private housing area with its 1-2 - stor[s:13ho1t5n]e[/s:13ho1t5n]y houses still reminds me of the 19-th century.

BTW, People in NYC LEAVE the city on the weekends to go to the "country" and don't you do the same with your Dachas?

Yes, I see what you mean. Many city-dwellers in Russia do leave for their dachas on the weekends, you're right Mostly in summer time, I think, but it depends. But not everybody has a dacha, and not everyone wants to. My family does not have any, and I am happy with that. Sometimes I can go to my friends' dacha just to have some "shashlik" there (a kind of barbecue, you know ). But as for me, I am personally a complete "urbanist", I've got used to the city life and I do not feel comfortably when staying out of it for more than 1 night. I start missing crowdy noisy streets, broad avenues, big supermarkets, cinemas, restaurants etc. Small towns are also boring for me.

BTW, thank you for correcting my mistakes! However, I'm just curious, what was wrong in my spelling of "storey"? I think I did not write it as "story", I know they are completely different words.

A detached house is better than an apartment mainly because it typically has more space (for living, working about the house and etc.). This space is also outside (e.g. a backyard) while an apartment has nothing.

There're no public places like lift halls which in many Russian blocks of flats are literally filthy.

The higher cost of maintainance is simply the price for a better accomodation. I'd like to live in a detached house, but in Moscow it means a huge transportation disadvantage (not work<->home only, since there're kids and old parents).

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by rockzmom

The reasons many people don't like apartment living is exactly the reason many love apartment living, the close proximity of PEOPLE! The noise. The smells. The chance of fires or theft.

In a good house you don't hear noise from your neighbours. And of course no smells!! I never had the "smells" experience, and I lived in many various houses.

That is interesting. In the apartment buildings that I have been in, you can almost ALWAYS smell in the hallways what anyone is cooking! As you walk to your apartment, you can tell what everyone is going to have for dinner! And the noise, oh my, you can hear the fights, the stereos, the tv, the heavy walking or if their are exercising from upstairs. Little children in an upstairs one is the worst!! You can hear them running back and forth all the time.

Originally Posted by Оля

The only thing you need to do is saying 'Goog day' to your neighbours when you meet them in a lift which I don't find very hard.

Orly??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLnuBQDcbD4

Originally Posted by [color=#0000FF

Уайтман[/color]]
BTW, thank you for correcting my mistakes! However, I'm just curious, what was wrong in my spelling of "storey"? I think I did not write it as "story", I know they are completely different words.

Ahhh, I just looked and I see this is one of those British vs American spelling words! Sorry about that. I am American and we don't use the "e" in the word.

A storey (in British spelling) or story (in American spelling) is any level part of a building, that has a permanent roof and could be used by people (for living, work, storage, recreation, etc.). The plural is storeys or stories, respectively. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storey

Originally Posted by rockzmom

Ahhh, I just looked and I see this is one of those British vs American spelling words! Sorry about that. I am American and we don't use the "e" in the word.

A storey (in British spelling) or story (in American spelling) is any level part of a building, that has a permanent roof and could be used by people (for living, work, storage, recreation, etc.). The plural is storeys or stories, respectively.

Thank you, didn't know about that spelling difference.