Thread: 1000$ - much or little?

An interesting article about living and expenses in the US (in Russian language)
http://www.gazeta.ru/money/2010/02/03_e_3319412.shtml

Originally Posted by Ramil

Then your employer pays so called 'black salary' to you and nobody pays anything from it.

This scheme was working fine but if your 'official' income is low it's hard to get a loan so many people try to find an employer who will pay 'in white'.

I think the level seems normal by European standards, but it's probably smarter to force companies to automatically take ALL the money from the paycheck instead of leaving some of it to the individual.

The excessive cheating ("black salary") among REGULAR people is not normal... Only shady people, or small businesses would try that in most of Europe. Most of Northern Europe, at least, is so well organised that the cheater would get caught pretty soon.

In the UK, some specialised jobs (mine for example) can be done on a "contractor" basis which leaves some interesting options for tax avoidance and leaves you with much more cash... But these jobs are harder to find, less secure and require a fair bit of involvement to manage the whole thing, so I am not doing it right now. I probably ought to though....

Also, in the UK you are responsible yourself for paying your local ("council") tax for local services in the area where you live. A lot of people don't do this, get found out, get in serious trouble and ruin their credit rating for years.

Seems to me the Russian government needs to stop/reduce this institutionalised cheating in order to get the right level of funding for public services in! It's surprising they haven't already put a stop to it, what's stopping them?

From an historical perspective: Is it correct that taxes as such where not used during the Soviet era?

Since Russian taxes aren't excessively high it seems like a shame that people and companies in Russia cheat in the way that Ramil outlines -- particularly when there is such a huge need in many areas.

(But on the other hand, if people suspect that their tax money may be wasted on corruption and useless schemes, then I suppose it's understandable that they hold back... )

Btw, what do you think about Mikhail Khordorkovsky who is frequently brought up as a sort of "martyr" in the UK press for having been falsely (?) imprisoned for tax crimes... I assume he is probably nor a very honest or decent person, but is it right that he should remain in prison for such a long time...? Hasn't he served his sentence by now?

Originally Posted by Johanna

Since Russian taxes aren't excessively high it seems like a shame that people and companies in Russia cheat in the way that Ramil outlines -- particularly when there is such a huge need in many areas.

26% ** 13% ~= 36% is not _excessively_ though enough high. Also, local (municipal, city-level taxes) are almos non-existend and don't affect thequality of local services - the whole idea that taxes are used to fund public services is somewhat alien.

I think the level seems normal by European standards, but it's probably smarter to force companies to automatically take ALL the money from the paycheck instead of leaving some of it to the individual.

We have a job market here. No way a business can find a good worker without paying him at the market level. This 'mixed' scheme is common too. In this way the market limits an employee from the other hand.

Most of Northern Europe, at least, is so well organised that the cheater would get caught pretty soon.

You mean countries where serious crisises have been absent for at least two centuries. We had an anarchy 20 years back, and 70 years before that - a system based on a lie which in its turn required cheating to survive - go figure.

Btw, what do you think about Mikhail Khordorkovsky who is frequently brought up as a sort of "martyr" in the UK press for having been falsely (?) imprisoned for tax crimes... I assume he is probably nor a very honest or decent person, but is it right that he should remain in prison for such a long time...?

If we delivered justice to anyone who had deserved it, there would be a genocide. Khodorkovsky was unlucky enough to get his. Just because he had political ambitions.

Thanks, MasterAdmin, nice article. There are a few errors but overall very informative. (For example, bedrooms do not usually have their own bathroom, although in the more expensive houses the master bedroom does (it is also usually larger than the others too).

Можно кто-нибудь расскажет о системе общественной страховки в России? У нас в США такая система называется Social Security. Количество денег, которое будешь получать в отставке (по крайней мере в возрасте 62 года) зависит от количества денег, которое ты вложил на протяжении своей рабочей жизни (рассчитывают только на основе тех 35-и лет когда ты получал самые большие зарплаты). Так, если работодатель не платил бы целую зарплату, то в отставке получаешь меньше. Поэтому мы не склонны принимать «черные» зарплаты.

http://www.401k.ru/pensionnaja-sistema-v-rossii/

Так, если работодатель не платил бы целую зарплату, то в отставке получаешь меньше. Поэтому мы не склонны принимать «черные» зарплаты.

У нас все это не имеет смысла, все равно обманут. На пенсии будешь получать жалкие гроши, независимо от того сколько лет работал и сколько зарабатывал. Наше государство - вор на воре. Оно всегда издевалось над народом и будет издеваться. Это наш крест.

It should work in theory, but there was a reform not so long ago and there are really nobody who'd lived and retired with this system.
People don't believe in anything that comes from the government so everyone of my age (30+) is convinced that the state won't help you should anything happen. Everyone thinks that he's on his own.

Originally Posted by Selexin

На пенсии будешь получать жалкие гроши

Моя родственница получает пенсию около 8000руб. + как "Ветеран труда" платит 50% за коммуналку. Это не идет ни в какое сравнение с тем, что было в 90-е, когда пенсионерам пенсии на еду не хватало, да еще задерживали выплаты на несколько месяцев.

The Russian government deserves three things only: mistrust, mistrust and mistrust. Therefore, I'd better collect more cash and take up my personal (and my family's) welfare rather than hoping on the government.

I'm not going to buy their social services.

Originally Posted by Ленивец

The Russian government deserves three things only: mistrust, mistrust and mistrust. Therefore, I'd better collect more cash and take up my personal (and my family's) welfare rather than hoping on the government.

I'm not going to buy their social services.

They won't ask you. That's why we have 'black salaries' here in Russia.

Well, yes, I don't pretend I have complete freedom in this area.

Well, this topic is getting closer to my heart as I am getting ready to retire, maybe this year, maybe next. At any rate, I will receive a pension and the miserly groshi from Social Security, which I figure at $1000 a month or probably less because of complicated laws. So my wife will have her SS (she'll be eligible in 4 years). Together we will have maybe about $40-50K after taxes and we will have to deal with it. I know it sounds like a lot to y'all, but over here it isn't.

Do you have a plan? Some Soviet emigrant told me that life expenses in US Midwest are quite cheap, while the people are of good character.

Originally Posted by chaika

Well, this topic is getting closer to my heart as I am getting ready to retire, maybe this year, maybe next. At any rate, I will receive a pension and the miserly groshi from Social Security, which I figure at $1000 a month or probably less because of complicated laws. So my wife will have her SS (she'll be eligible in 4 years). Together we will have maybe about $40-50K after taxes and we will have to deal with it. I know it sounds like a lot to y'all, but over here it isn't.

But how about a popular belief here that only western retired folks lead a happy life traveling around the globe, indulging themselves in every way imaginable, thanks to the system, making them work hard while they are young and active but providing them amply in their autumn years?

what's the usual ratio of white to black salary? I mean if you get X no. rubles/mo. what % is white?

I don't think there's a specific ratio. The larger the whole salary, the smaller its official part.

Originally Posted by sperk

what's the usual ratio of white to black salary? I mean if you get X no. rubles/mo. what % is white?

~ 40%/60% white/black
Естественно, такое возможно только в коммерческих/частных организациях. Все государственные, бюджетные организации выплачивают работникам 100% в белую.

In my case it's been 5%/95% up until recently. Now it's 50/50.

I still don't understand how this black/white salary thing actually works.

I mean, the companies have to use financial auditors, don't they?
This is a HUGE scam and you are saying that all companies do it... Shocking corruption! (What about State employers, like schools and hospitals, or foreign companies?)

EVERYONE has got to be in on this scam for it to work; the whole company finance department, the board of directors and the external auditors who are supposed to look for exactly this kind of thing!

Are all these people bribed, or completely corrupt, or what?
And do you have to negotiate about how much of your salary is white vs black?

Originally Posted by Johanna

I still don't understand how this black/white salary thing actually works.

I mean, the companies have to use financial auditors, don't they?

Yes, but if you work in retail you've got HUGE amounts of cash. Cash registers can be easily reprogrammed and fiscal memory be reset. Inspecting authorities won't find anything and even if they find - well, they will receive some cash too Auditors can be bought too. Everybody takes bribes here, starting from a doorman and ending with a president.

This is a HUGE scam and you are saying that all companies do it... Shocking corruption! (What about State employers, like schools and hospitals, or foreign companies?)

Everybody who CAN take a bribe takes it.

EVERYONE has got to be in on this scam for it to work; the whole company finance department, the board of directors

Yes, they are Finance department usually keeps two set of accounts - an 'official one' (for auditors and inspections) and a 'black one' - for shareholders (they are aware of this too, of course, moreover - they encourage it. The general motto says - there must be no profit (officially). The less we pay taxes the better. It's a game - tax authorities try to catch and tax payers evade. Someone gets unlucky from time to time, but this don't stop the game, it only brings a new level of sophistication to it.

and the external auditors who are supposed to look for exactly this kind of thing!

External audit is just a formality. They come, they browse through the official accounts and they leave.

Are all these people bribed, or completely corrupt, or what?

Well, I don't know. Personally I think that the corruption starts in highest echelones of government. There are huge amounts of scandals when budgetary funds get stolen. If the government steals from the budget then why should people pay taxes?

And do you have to negotiated about how much of your salary is white vs black?

Usually yes, this question is negotiated at the interview. There are companies that work 'completely white', but the majority still use 'black' or 'grey' schemes.

19% is actually REALLY low! If the state wants to stop this they have to start demanding that ALL taxes are paid in automatically, and really crack down on it.

Employed individuals don't pay taxes (unless they are self-employed) I mean physically - they get their money from their employer with tax deduced already.

And the most funny thing - the government may behave as if they really want to stamp out the corruption but in reality - they do not care. Moreover - the most corrupt ones are those in Duma and the Kremlin.