The state of education in your country.....

After watching a documentary about American state (public) schools I would say that if I lived in the US and had kids I would feel obliged to enroll them in a private school! The environment that was shown in the documentary was terrible and I don't see how the child could get a good start or succed in their studies in such an environment. The lack of discipline and knowledge was unbelievable. How could American politicians let things get so out of control?

In a better state school shown as a contrast, it just seemed that being "cool" was the main objective for going to school, not learning... No doubt there are exceptions, but after seeing that I felt really sorry for American parents. What a nightmare situation.

In Britain some state schools are bad and some are very good. The trick is getting the child into a good state school ("grammar school") and get a top class education for free. Parents will revert to ANY strategy! The most common one is to start attending church so the child can get a place in a church-run school (requires active church membership..) or buying a house right next to a particularly good school. This skews the housing market in a very odd way.. The system seems TOTALLY BIZARRE to a foreigner.

In Sweden all schools are more or less the same... Not bad but not exceptionally good either. A lot of talent is lost by not channeling the brightest kids into more challenging courses where their skills can be developed. Hardly anyone supports private education but recently a few more private schools have started whereas before that there were only a few in the whole country. Such schools usually specialise in something, like sports or music.

I also saw a Youtube video of a school in Ukraine. The teachers seemed REALLY passionate and competent and the children appeared motivated. The school building looked like it had once been very nice. But all the equipment was outdated and the school was clearly short of money -- this was casting a long shadow over the situation. The children had no access to modern electronic equipment at all.

What's the situation in Russia and other ex USSR countries and how does it compare to the above examples?

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Originally Posted by Johanna

In a better state school shown as a contrast, it just seemed that being "cool" was the main objective for going to school, not learning... No doubt there are exceptions, but after seeing that I felt really sorry for American parents. What a nightmare situation.

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Yes, I've read an interesting article recently which highlights this problem of popularity, geeks, bullying, etc. Actually, I think you might have seen one, Johanna, :wink: but I'll put the link to it here for all those who might be interested, since we're discussing schools. Why Nerds Are Unpopular. We had this problem too at my school, though on a much lesser scale. To be quite honest, I didn't like that time, especially high school. For many reasons.

As for the state of the Russian system of education now... Well, you know, some people are prone to spelling doom and gloom for it; there is talk about it collapsing and so on but I don't really think it's true. Somehow it survived the 1990s when teachers' salaries were so ridiculous. Now it's a bit better though there are problems, of course. Like in Great Britain some schools are considered better, so parents try to get their children there. I'm not sure where we are moving now with all those standard tests introduced. I know that the Finnish system of education is considered very good and it actually borrowed heavily from the Soviet system. I don't like a few things that are being introduced. For instance, poor kids now have to study 12 (or 11??) years instead of 10. I also wouldn't want Russian children to have to start school at 5 as it's apparently done in GB. (?) Children from 3 to 7 can go to a kindergarten if their parents can get a place (which is a REAL problem) but they don't actually have to start formal education so early. :shock:

Also there are quite a lot of complaints that those who graduated from pedagogical/teacher-training universities don't want to work at schools. People who could be great teachers choose other places of work because they can do much better there. In fact, it's good if they don't leave the country altogether. One of my best friends who clearly had pedagogical talent, a very active, energentic sort of person, left for France right after the uni. I could work at school technically because I have the diploma but I don't think it's my vocation. I didn't do brilliantly during the practice we had at schools (though, admittedly, it was a difficult time for me due to other reasons). I'm just better suited psychologically to working alone -- when the result of my work depends only on me -- which I'm happy to be doing now as a translator.

I went to school during the 1990s. It was a very simple one but in my opinion all people who had any desire to learn and any capabilities succeeded to enter universities and make a career for themselves... So I don't really think we lacked opportunities. It would perhaps be better if schools were better equipped but other than that... As I said, all who wanted to study managed to find ways and means. Where there's a will, there's a way. Of course, improvements can, and should, be introduced. I think we could borrow some things from the American system of education, like a broader choice of subjects and the opportunity to ditch those subjects you are not good at. For me, personally, those hours spent learning algebra, geometry and chemistry in the last two years didn't do anything. It was pretty much a waste of time.

Specialisition is a very controversial topic. I know a lot of people who don't care for history, for example, -- my best friends, in fact. I don't think it's right not to know the history of your own country but it seems school lessons don't do much in the way of cultivating love for it. One of my friends, an A student ("отличница") also hated the literature lessons, besides history, and having to write compositions. Does it mean that students should be able to drop studying Russian literature at some point? Or that the lit courses should be altered to make them more appealing? For example, I have just read "The Dead Souls" by Gogol and enjoyed it a lot but it didn't seem interesting when we studied it at school.

I liked literature and history, so I naturally think those subjects are necessary. On the other hand, I hated algebra, geometry, chemistry, and physics, so if I were to go to school again, I'd gladly drop them, at least in the 10-11 forms/grades. Those lessons were a torture. It doesn't mean that I think these sciences aren't worth studying -- in fact, I'd gladly learn a bit more now, if I had the time -- but it was just impossible for me to succeed in them then.

All right, that's enough ranting... :)

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Originally Posted by Johanna

I also saw a Youtube video of a school in Ukraine. The teachers seemed REALLY passionate and competent and the children appeared motivated. The school building looked like it had once been very nice. But all the equipment was outdated and the school was clearly short of money -- this was casting a long shadow over the situation. The children had no access to modern electronic equipment at all.

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Mostly the same in Russia.

«building looked like it had once been very nice» — it was nice at the USSR time. When USSR disappeared the Knowledge and Intellect become out of fashion (and schools with it). The Money lust came instead. In USSR children wanted to be cosmonauts, doctors and teachers. Now everybody wants to be a businessman (because doctors, teachers and scientists have the lowest salary due to their work connected with knowledge, not with money). The common example shows us that knowledge is not necessary to earn money in Russia. Instead there are needed impudence, connections with influential people, and so on.

In school, I liked algebra, geometry, chemistry, and physics, so I naturally think those subjects are necessary. On the other hand, I hated literature and history, so if I were to go to school again, I'd gladly drop them, at least in the 10-11 forms/grades. Those lessons were a torture. It doesn't mean that I think these sciences aren't worth studying — in fact, I'd gladly learn a bit more now, if I had the time — but it was just impossible for me to succeed in them then.

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Originally Posted by SAn

The common example shows us that knowledge is not necessary to earn money in Russia.

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The biggest problem is that it has almost always been this way. If you think about it, it was a way much worse in the past. Not that long ago scientists had to be rich up front in order to afford themselves to be engaged in the science. Others were seeking refuge in the applied science which actually paid some money - astrology. :mosking:

Also, let's not be too nostalgic as the knowledge didn't help much to most Soviet engineers who earned their 120 rubles a month salary with not many prospects in life.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

The lack of discipline and knowledge was unbelievable. How could American politicians let things get so out of control?

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I think you should compare apples with apples. I could easily find a Moscow (or suburb-Moscow) school that would look like a prison for the under-aged. :mosking: For the most part the level of the public schools depends primarily on who ATTEND those schools which, in turn, examines the parents educational background. It could either be a good neighborhood or a bad neighborhood. For the real good nerds there's always the option of the home schooling. (Which I think is great, as I remember my intelligence quickly drained down the toilet as I attended my school. I was actually learning only when I was sick.)

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Originally Posted by starrysky

Specialisition is a very controversial topic.

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Yeah, that's a toughie. I would gladly skip most of the subjects as totally useless. And, of course, the first and foremost is Russian Language and Literature! What a useless subject! People would write without mistakes if they read well. And those so-called "rules" are helping to write in real life not a bit more than the legs-counting for a caterpillar! This is the most apparent when a person would study a foreign language, learn "the rules", and then find himself not being able to say or write anything! And the literature classes were totally and utterly useless. The lit teachers always claimed they teach how to think, but try to think (and write in your composition anything not like Belinsky said) and you'll get a fail for the content (and an excellent for the grammar). And don't even get me started with the curriculum which was designed for a very mature readers and not for children. Like, who the heck in school would really understand anything of what Gogol and Dostoyevskiy were actually trying to say? :mosking:

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I know that the Finnish system of education is considered very good and it actually borrowed heavily from the Soviet system

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Yes, it's considered one of the best, perhaps THE best in the EU. They stuck with exams and streaming based on ability, whereas the other Scandinavian countries thought that approach was too elitist and would discourage children who had no particular talents. But they also make real effort to help the low-achieving kids and making sure they do not "fall off".

We use the Russian-style grading system (1-5) but I did not know that anything else was borrowed.. There was some talk of having a national school uniform while I was in school, but it never happened.
Oh yes, relatively late school start (at 7) might be another similarity. This is later than everywhere else in Europe.

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I also wouldn't want Russian children to have to start school at 5 as it's apparently done in GB.

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I think it's 4 actually!! And it is sooo strange. I can only imagine that it is a form of childcare. It's been proved that it makes no difference at all whether they start learning at 4 or 7. I have no idea why it's done.

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

I would gladly skip most of the subjects as totally useless. And, of course, the first and foremost is Russian Language and Literature!

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Shocking comment, Croc!! Everyone should know SOME literature, but it ought to be possible to opt out. What about OTHER literature, I mean not Russian, for example German, French, English, Italian? Or did you ONLY read Russian literature?
I like ONLY history, maths and textile works, LOL!

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Originally Posted by San

building looked like it had once been very nice» — it was nice at the USSR time

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Yeah, it had a very impressive indoor swimming pool which was not in use. The school was architecturally very grand but had started literally falling apart. Very sad.

This was part of a "Russian course" that a woman is running on Youtube. She lives somewhere in Ukraine and part of the course is about her interviewing her friends about their jobs and families. Her friend was a teacher at that school.

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

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Originally Posted by SAn

The common example shows us that knowledge is not necessary to earn money in Russia.

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The biggest problem is that it has almost always been this way. If you think about it, it was a way much worse in the past. Not that long ago scientists had to be rich up front in order to afford themselves to be engaged in the science. Others were seeking refuge in the applied science which actually paid some money - astrology. :mosking:

Also, let's not be too nostalgic as the knowledge didn't help much to most Soviet engineers who earned their 120 rubles a month salary with not many prospects in life.

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Agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

The lit teachers always claimed they teach how to think, but try to think (and write in your composition anything not like Belinsky said) and you'll get a fail for the content (and an excellent for the grammar). And don't even get me started with the curriculum which was designed for a very mature readers and not for children. Like, who the heck in school would really understand anything of what Gogol and Dostoyevskiy were actually trying to say? :mosking:

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Yes! I even wrote blog post about these problems: http://iproc.ru/2009/02/essay-with-distinction/ . The post is about writing essays in schools and excellent marks just for the «right» style (not for the real value of work).

In Russia there are very good schools as well as truly abominable ones. The sutuation changes with geography also, a school in Chechnya differs much from a school in Kirov, for example. Also the area where a school is situated, matters much. In the worst areas there're many students with North-Caucasian background who from ethnic groups in schools. The others are bullied by them. It sometimes applies to teachers also.

The school load's increased dramatically since the Soviet times. Even high-schoolers've never had more than 6 45-minutes lesson per day before, now they have 8 on the most days. That's because many useless subjects have been added, like "The basics of the Orthodox Culture". Many schools use their opportunity to add subjects by choice and the result is often stupid, like attempts to teach pshycology to 10 year olds.

The teachers are assessed by the marks of their students. This means that teachers mark their students better than they really perform.

A good school means a school with a caring principal. Such principal would try to get her school certified as 'gymnasium' or 'specialised'. This gives the right to accept children through entrance examinations, while the other schools have to accept anyone dwelling in a certain area.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Shocking comment, Croc!! Everyone should know SOME literature, but it ought to be possible to opt out. What about OTHER literature, I mean not Russian, for example German, French, English, Italian? Or did you ONLY read Russian literature?

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Well, it meant to draw attention. You see, there's a vast difference between know some literature and be graded on some literature. I'm not sure what you experience was in school, but whoever I know developed deep hatred towards that Pushikin-Dostoyevskiy-Tolstoy in school, and were only cured from it if they took a second glance at their writings at a later age. What do children really read at schools? What forms them? At the best Dumas and Jules Verne, for sure not Prishvin and Chernyshevskiy!

Here's a sentence that could (???) help you learn Russian:

Чу! Наклонился, подбоченясь, жирный овск; продрал горлышко, позеленел от натуги; взмахнул руками, как лопастями мельницы, зависевшимися без дела; ткнул зобом в микрофон и вдруг распелся, распоясовшись, разухабившись надрывно, расплескавшись зычным рёвом аж до самой околицы, а то и до околотка. :mosking:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

I think it's 4 actually!! And it is sooo strange. I can only imagine that it is a form of childcare. It's been proved that it makes no difference at all whether they start learning at 4 or 7. I have no idea why it's done.

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I actually disagree with that one.

There is a great deal of data about how it does make a HUGE difference especially with children who come from socioeconomic disadvantaged homes where parents may not be able to teach their children basic skills. Or the native language spoken in the home is not that of the country they are living in. When these children enter into K or 1st grade and can't even speak one word of the "native" language or know any letters, colors, numbers... it is a big problem and disadvantage for this child, the other children in the classroom and the teacher who must now spend additional time and resources helping this one child now learn years worth of information they should have already learned. By attending these "Head Start" and "All Day Kindergarten" programs, this is all avoided.

Additionally, as colleges are now dictating what they want students to know by the time they enter, the school systems must therefore back map the classes accordingly. Example, all students need to be taking Algebra by 9th grade to be on target for college level math. To get to that correct level by 9th grade, they must start teaching more difficult concepts earlier in the elementary levels.

But school and kindergarten are two different things. I don't think anyone argues that children shouldn't learn anything at all before school starts (though supposedly they are taught all the basic things, like reading, cursive writing, and doing sums in the first grade and it used to be ok...). At a kindergarten children learn in a fun and relaxed way and for very short periods of time, like 15 minutes. There are no fullblown 45 min lessons, marks and homework. Classes in Russia are a serious matter -- children have to sit straight behind their desks, learn to listen to the teacher, to be disciplined, assiduous and so on. They can't go round the class, eat, not pay attention and so on. It seems that it's too harsh to introduce children under 7 to all these things. They'll get enough stress with marks and tests later on...

In the Russian school curriculum there're lots of topics taught to everyone, which will prove useless later when a former student leaves school. Those are:

Chemistry: manufacturing sulphur acid, smelting iron (two methods), nitrtogen fertilisers, different plastics and so on...

Physics: combustion engine's operating principles, nuclear reactions ...

Math: differential and integral calculus ...

I believe these topics must be made optional. Those who want to specialise in these areas, will choose them.

At least my daughter doing economics in a unversity now, remembers not a damn of making hydrochloric acid, while she passed an exam in this not earlier than 4 years ago.

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Originally Posted by starrysky

But school and kindergarten are two different things.

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Not any longer. Children are now taught and expected to learn to read and write while IN kindergarten. It is ALL day in many US school systems now and starts at age 5, always I believe it always has started. I guess this Parent's Guide to Kindergarten would make you want to home school your kids and let them just go back to the good old days of milk, cookies and nap time :D I know that's what I had growing up in Kindergarten!!http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/c...ndergarten.pdf

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Originally Posted by Ленивец

In the Russian school curriculum there're lots of topics taught to everyone, which will prove useless later when a former student leaves school. Those are:

Chemistry: manufacturing sulphur acid, smelting iron (two methods), nitrtogen fertilisers, different plastics and so on...

Physics: combustion engine's operating principles, nuclear reactions ...

Math: differential and integral calculus ...

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But differential and integral calculus are needed almost every day of life! I will not be able to solve any real word problem without such knowledge.

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Originally Posted by SAn

But differential and integral calculus are needed almost every day of life! I will not be able to solve any real word problem without such knowledge.

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I like math too, but let's not stretch it out. You can build a very decent sand box without solving a system of differential equations. :roll:

I think that calculus, organic chemistry, as well as all the nits and grits of Russian Grammar are specialized knowledge.

When I entered a university my math analysis professor kept saying 'forget everything you've been taught at school'. My wife, whose occupution is teaching French, have no idea on the subject. So it's to be taught in universities.

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Originally Posted by Ленивец

When I entered a university my math analysis professor kept saying 'forget everything you've been taught at school'. My wife, whose occupution is teaching French, have no idea on the subject. So it's to be taught in universities.

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It strongly depends on the school and the teacher. When I took my pre-PhD exams in Solid State Physics, I found that my secondary school knowledge was about 40% of the requested. *)

I can honestly say that I don't remember anything of chemistry, biology, physics, and math I've been "taught" at school. There was also a strange subject - "economic geography"; nothing of it left in my memory either.

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Originally Posted by Оля

I can honestly say that I don't remember anything of chemistry, biology, physics, and math I've been "taught" at school. There was also a strange subject - "economic geography"; nothing of it left in my memory either.

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It would probably still be OK if you'd acknowledge those subject at least contributed to the development, but since it's highly unlikely (as unlikely as myself remembering any of the History or Geography "taught" in school), I could agree that torturing you with those was a total waste of your time. I guess their main job was just to babysit the students making sure we don't eat each other alive. I recollect myself answering that New Zealand was near Australia (because I just finished reading The Children of Captain Grant) and I was soon sent to the district Geographic Olympiade (as the best in my class) and I happened to get the 6th place without knowing anything! That was how they taught Geography in Moscow in those "knowledgeable" USSR days. :oops:

Oh, I think I was unjust with respect to math. I forgot about four simple arithmetic operations which I know from the school lessons (I'm not sure though; perhaps I knew them before the school :D ). I must admit they are very useful. :)
Well, I actually meant all the math we had in last years of the school. It was a permanent torture for me. And I really remember nothing.

Actually remembering or not remembering depends on whether the knowledge is needed presently. The knowledge is still there in your head and if you need something there will be something like 'Hey, I remember I studied this at school', and if you would want (or be forced) to go any deeper you'll find out that 'remembering' is much easier than learning it from the very beginning. The knowledge sleeps until you need it. In fact, our subconsciousness 'remembers' everything we saw or heard in our lifetime (hypnosis works because of this).

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Originally Posted by Ramil

The knowledge is still there in your head

The knowledge sleeps until you need it

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It could be true if I had ever HAVE that knowledge in my head. But believe me, I even didn't.
Chemistry, physics, trigonometry, and many other things always were a complete "black hole" or something to me; if you think a teacher was telling us something, and I was sitting and digesting it - no, it wasn't so. It was completely "something-I-don't-understand-even-a-word-and-what-it-is-about", if (s)he was telling anything. But usually, if I am not mistaken, we just should read the book at home and get all ourselves. In the upper school I didn't even try to do that. I knew it's not mine.

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Originally Posted by Оля

It could be true if I had ever HAD that knowledge in my head.

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:) :sorry:

I don't think 'learning and forgetting afterwards' is a good way to invest one's time and effort. Instead of poking to kids' heads what they might need in future we could concentrate on what's they'll really need. There're lots of things that are not taught! Like the ability to clearly express one's ideas in the both written form and in speech. Basic pshycology, foreign languages.

Many disciplines may be made optional. So we'll have different diplomas, suitable for entering specific departments in universites (engineering but not literature, literature, but not medicine), as well as to be allowed for manual jobs.

Teachers work shouldn't be measured on performance of their students. The government must finance only a fixed-time period of education. Those who need more than one attempt to finish a grade, must pay to finish or leave.

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Originally Posted by Ленивец

I don't think 'learning and forgetting afterwards' is a good way to invest one's time and effort. Instead of poking to kids' heads what they might need in future we could concentrate on what's they'll really need. There're lots of things that are not taught! Like the ability to clearly express one's ideas in the both written form and in speech. Basic pshycology, foreign languages.

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Who would risk a guess what they will really need? One will become a writer and the other will become a physician, the third will clean the streets, the fourth will be a taxi driver.

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Many disciplines may be made optional. So we'll have different diplomas, suitable for entering specific departments in universites (engineering but not literature, literature, but not medicine), as well as to be allowed for manual jobs.

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That's the point. What they teach at schools is called 'общее образование' (general education or basic education) in Russian. It's only afterwards when you are already capable of deciding what's yours and what isn't you choose your speciality. An average 10 y. o. kid simply cannot decide it yet.

Here are the disciplines that I think should be taught to everybody at schools in order of importance as I see it: Russian language (lots of it), Math, Foreign language, Literature, Physics, History, Biology, Chemistry, Sociology, Psychology.

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Who would risk a guess what they will really need? One will become a writer and the other will become a physician, the third will clean the streets, the fourth will be a taxi driver.

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I mean the knowledge neccessary to everyone no matter whether they're writers or janitars.

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An average 10 y. o. kid simply cannot decide it yet.

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Why is this age?
Anyway, it's the parents who are supposed to decide for 10 y.olds (as well as for younger and older kids). Moreover, parents may have professional advice at schools.

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Russian language (lots of it), Math, Foreign language, Literature, Physics, History, Biology, Chemistry, Sociology, Psychology.

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No problem with this list as far as it's not supposed to be exhaustive. But the specific curriculums for each of them matter.

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Originally Posted by Ленивец

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Originally Posted by Ramil

An average 10 y. o. kid simply cannot decide it yet.

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Why is this age?

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No particular reason - just not too young and not too old.

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Anyway, it's the parents who are supposed to decide for 10 y.olds (as well as for younger and older kids).

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Yes, many parents do that, but what if their kids would hate them for it afterwards? Many parents dream of their kids doing things that kids themself are sick of (mine, for example, were trying to make an architect out of me).

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No particular reason - just not too young and not too old

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The possible curriculum specialisation may happen at an older age (say, 12, 14). If a child isn't capable to choose himself at an older age, than choosing by his parents is simply unavailable. The kid can take care for his education later, when he knows what he wants.

speaking on the your situation:

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mine, for example, were trying to make an architect out of me

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A kid in such circumstances would be in a better situation if he took a specialised curriculum, he recieves a smaller portion of spam. A standard school program + preparation to architectship is larger than a specialised (say, art) program.

In US, generally private schools are better, though not always.

One downside that I've experienced through 16 years of private (Catholic) education is that they put much more emphasis on maths and sciences, particularly in high school. I think the reasoning for this is that people who excel at things like calculus, biology, physics, and chemistry correspondingly become : engineers, doctors, physicists, and chemists - all which make a significant amount of money. And while private schools are in the business of providing education, they also need to stay afloat. I know that my high school relied primarily on donations from alumni to stay afloat; thus, alumni that are doctors are much more likely to donate than say, social workers. I think this may be why they never seemed to put as much emphasis on literature, writing, etc. And that I do regret.

But the pluses outnumber the negatives..

At the public high schools in my city, students are not required to go to class, and often don't. Even if they do, they hardly learn anything because they're unprepared, unmotivated, lack of parents, poor teachers, fights, etc.
There are even occasional shootings at sporting events. But my city is post-industrial, poor, and cold, things perhaps are much different in an area seeing economic growth

This is the state of education... children applying for grants and lobbying legislators to keep their schools funded! If you can, please vote for this one (every day) as I know these three schools and they really do need to stay open and funded!

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With one click of your mouse, http://www.refresheverything.com/msmc, YOU can help keep three magnet middle schools fully funded!

An 8th grade student at Loiederman Middle School has applied for a $250,000 Pepsi Refresh Project Grant and has been selected as a finalist. This grant is for teacher salaries for school year 2011-2012 for ALL three schools. The $250,000 grant receiving the most votes between NOW and March 31, 2010 will WIN the $250,000 grant!!!

Loiederman is part of a three magnet school consortium located in a portion of the Montgomery County Maryland Public School district with a high minority population and percentage of students receiving free and reduced meals.

Argyle, focuses on digital design and development; Loiederman, offers a creative and performing arts focus; and Parkland, provides students the opportunity to explore math and science through aerospace technology and robotic engineering. These three non-admission test required, whole school focused format, magnet public schools are jointly called the Middle School Magnet Consortium (MSMC).

You can vote for her grant once a day ~ every day! http://www.refresheverything.com/msmc

Last week this same eighth grader met with legislators in Annapolis and is also scheduled to meet with Congressman Van Hollen's people on Capitol Hill the 2nd week of March to try and obtain more funds and a longer term funding solution.

Please help keep these important public schools fully funded. Spread the word on every list serve, Face Book, Twitter... and vote EVERY DAY for the MSMC Grant!!!
http://www.refresheverything.com/msmc
Wiget Link http://pep.si/dxWopZ

Your votes can make a difference!

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Jazz, I see the winter of your discontent is not over yet. I hoped the only repercussions of your school being underfunded would be no new homemade yellow sweater for a little Lisa, no fire truck for a little Bart and no Cajun-sausage for a little Homer, but never the closing of the school itself.
Well, our virtual clicks for the right course, for, I take it, out of the US votes don’t count. :friends:

I think there are several problems with the US school systems across the board whether private or public. (and it does not rest entirely ON the system)

1. PARENTS - yep you are reading this correctly. It all starts with the parents. If you are NOT as involved with your child and his/her education, well there is a problem. Also with regard to parents is the whole "my child would NEVER" do this or that. Dear lord, kids are kids and as such require good examples to follow. So if a parent is not giving good examples or making excuses, the kids are too. Kids learn good habits and responsibility usually from those older, not their peers (though there are some exceptions)
A. side note here in regards to this. the US is so "the rights of" and "sue happy" that they forget many principles of what is right to do. (ie: I mean I believe in the basic human rights for all people, I do not believe though my child should have the power to make decisions for themselves that they may have or have not thought through to all of the possible consequences or outcomes.PLUS I am the one responsible to support them)

2. RESPECT, RESPONSIBILITY, DISCIPLINE, ACCOUNTABILITY - Please tell me where these things are? I think as soon as the government decided to allow the children to have "rights", education went down the toilet. Yes there is basic human rights. However raising a child they do not have a right to make decisions that can potential harm them (whether it is physical or otherwise) Generally children have not learned to reason through much of their words or actions. This is why it is so imperative to teach them and train them to become responsible adults.

You have to understand in the school system, discipline is almost non-existent. If a child misbehaves there are not many such consequences that rarely teach them NOT to do such things again. Suspension, detention, rarely work. Kids see a suspension from school as a mini vacation for themselves. Oft times staying at home, playing on the computer, watching tv, etc .... If a child has a discipline problem, then the school AND the parents need to work together to instill in the child the right and wrong of it.

3. TEACHERS - teachers here have become glorified babysitters. Yes there are those that truly have a passion to teach, inspire and mold the lives of these fresh young minds that walk through these doors. These teachers are far and few between. Kids are all different (their is NO patent formula for raising and or teaching children), therefore you reach out and embrace their differences and figure out, ok what IS the best way to reach these children. HOW do we get them interested in learning and motivate them to have the desire to learn more and NOT just in school, but through life? I am sorry but teachers do a huge disservice by not keeping in contact with parents too. Again, it should be a team effort and oft times falls short.

4. GOVERNMENT - government is guilty to of destroying education. As much as they speak so eloquently on wanting to have more money for education and teach America's children. Hogwash. Money going into schools and more often than not goes to line the pockets of top administrators that push paper all day long. We are losing good teachers, and good programs. All because of budget cuts. AND also because there are so many freaking guidelines, rules and red tape. UGH. God forbid a child gets hurt, if a teacher is seen comforting them it becomes a issue. Government encourages a do not get so close policy (though it is not said aloud!) ALSO with cutting funds for art (ie: music, drama, sports, etc) they have effectively and systematically done a huge disservice to kids. Studies have shown time and time again the importance of art and how it helps and influences other parts of education. (example ... a child playing an instrument in school is oft time better at math and science. go figure!)

5. PRIDE - hello ... where is the pride we use to have? Pride in education? Pride in doing a job well? Pride in helping others? Pride in family? Pride in country? Everything from media, to music, etc ....seemingly shows that it is me me me me. Ugh. It is ok to want, to desire. But freaking work for it. Work towards a good education, even if the school is not great, instill in the child to learn on their own, SHOW them learning is not just IN school, but OUT of it as well. Utilize the resources that are available for education beyond the classroom walls. Internet, libraries, art museums, battle fields, shelters, etc ... if you look (as parents) at everyday life (of course you must be genuine about it and actually show by example), there is not a moment when you can not teach your child all there is. Also instill in children then sense of "they are better than that AND they can achieve whatever it is their mind perceives and they are willing to work for".

Being smart, making a good living does not solely fall to the "education" system. Life is the best school for all and many fail to see that and thus fail in accomplishing furthering their minds and thus their lives.

I am hopping off the soap box now. =)

ooo...wanted add, other countries (from my limited experience) seem to have a great deal of expectations of their children. I like that. Why not here?

I'm an American and attended public school my whole life, including public universities. I can definitely attest well to the American education system. The absolute number one problem is that in America, the education system is seen as a form of babysitting and not necessarily a way to learn. In elementary and middle schools, the teachers spend their time addressing behavior issues and not educating. I know this because my sister is a middle school teacher, at one of the GOOD schools. American society has weakened so much, there is no longer an emphasis on knowledge. We want everyone else to adapt to us, and do as Americans. I remember even in the Honors classes at my terrible public high school, we barely learned anything. High school is about being cool, trying to not get killed or pregnant, and just coast right along. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely an amazing experience. I'm pretty sure Europeans wouldn't be able to handle it. I still learned a lot, and travelled to other institutions in other countries for my university studies.

And anyway, learning is what the student makes of it. Institutions are not important. If I wanted to learn something, I did. :good:


***I meant to add that parents are also the problem. American parents have become self-absorbed and expect the schools to take care of their kids in every way. They don't see schools as institutions for learning, they see them as places the kids go away to for the day. Parents blame teachers way too much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emeraldeyez

I think there are several problems with the US school systems across the board whether private or public. (and it does not rest entirely ON the system)

1. PARENTS - yep you are reading this correctly. It all starts with the parents. If you are NOT as involved with your child and his/her education, well there is a problem. Also with regard to parents is the whole "my child would NEVER" do this or that. Dear lord, kids are kids and as such require good examples to follow. So if a parent is not giving good examples or making excuses, the kids are too. Kids learn good habits and responsibility usually from those older, not their peers (though there are some exceptions)
A. side note here in regards to this. the US is so "the rights of" and "sue happy" that they forget many principles of what is right to do. (ie: I mean I believe in the basic human rights for all people, I do not believe though my child should have the power to make decisions for themselves that they may have or have not thought through to all of the possible consequences or outcomes.PLUS I am the one responsible to support them)

2. RESPECT, RESPONSIBILITY, DISCIPLINE, ACCOUNTABILITY - Please tell me where these things are? I think as soon as the government decided to allow the children to have "rights", education went down the toilet. Yes there is basic human rights. However raising a child they do not have a right to make decisions that can potential harm them (whether it is physical or otherwise) Generally children have not learned to reason through much of their words or actions. This is why it is so imperative to teach them and train them to become responsible adults.

You have to understand in the school system, discipline is almost non-existent. If a child misbehaves there are not many such consequences that rarely teach them NOT to do such things again. Suspension, detention, rarely work. Kids see a suspension from school as a mini vacation for themselves. Oft times staying at home, playing on the computer, watching tv, etc .... If a child has a discipline problem, then the school AND the parents need to work together to instill in the child the right and wrong of it.

3. TEACHERS - teachers here have become glorified babysitters. Yes there are those that truly have a passion to teach, inspire and mold the lives of these fresh young minds that walk through these doors. These teachers are far and few between. Kids are all different (their is NO patent formula for raising and or teaching children), therefore you reach out and embrace their differences and figure out, ok what IS the best way to reach these children. HOW do we get them interested in learning and motivate them to have the desire to learn more and NOT just in school, but through life? I am sorry but teachers do a huge disservice by not keeping in contact with parents too. Again, it should be a team effort and oft times falls short.

4. GOVERNMENT - government is guilty to of destroying education. As much as they speak so eloquently on wanting to have more money for education and teach America's children. Hogwash. Money going into schools and more often than not goes to line the pockets of top administrators that push paper all day long. We are losing good teachers, and good programs. All because of budget cuts. AND also because there are so many freaking guidelines, rules and red tape. UGH. God forbid a child gets hurt, if a teacher is seen comforting them it becomes a issue. Government encourages a do not get so close policy (though it is not said aloud!) ALSO with cutting funds for art (ie: music, drama, sports, etc) they have effectively and systematically done a huge disservice to kids. Studies have shown time and time again the importance of art and how it helps and influences other parts of education. (example ... a child playing an instrument in school is oft time better at math and science. go figure!)

5. PRIDE - hello ... where is the pride we use to have? Pride in education? Pride in doing a job well? Pride in helping others? Pride in family? Pride in country? Everything from media, to music, etc ....seemingly shows that it is me me me me. Ugh. It is ok to want, to desire. But freaking work for it. Work towards a good education, even if the school is not great, instill in the child to learn on their own, SHOW them learning is not just IN school, but OUT of it as well. Utilize the resources that are available for education beyond the classroom walls. Internet, libraries, art museums, battle fields, shelters, etc ... if you look (as parents) at everyday life (of course you must be genuine about it and actually show by example), there is not a moment when you can not teach your child all there is. Also instill in children then sense of "they are better than that AND they can achieve whatever it is their mind perceives and they are willing to work for".

Being smart, making a good living does not solely fall to the "education" system. Life is the best school for all and many fail to see that and thus fail in accomplishing furthering their minds and thus their lives.

I am hopping off the soap box now. =)

ooo...wanted add, other countries (from my limited experience) seem to have a great deal of expectations of their children. I like that. Why not here?

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I couldn't agree with you any more! It's all so true.

I don't know if this story has reached overseas or not. I know it has reached national level here... the national weekend and nightly news, some of the major newspapers... A 42 year-old DC School Principal was murdered last week in his home in Maryland. Mr. Brian Betts was just one of those amazing and rare educators and before going to be the principal in DC, he was the assistant principal and magnet coordinator at my girl's middle school.

The impact he had on students was magical. PBS and NBC had already done stories about him turning around the DC school were he worked. I know from my time with him how special a person he was and what a loss to the education world he is. Sadly, no one knows right now why or who killed him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3vYiTl3H3w
Rest in Paradize! :sad:

LIFE GOES ON
2Pac Shakur

How many brothers fell victim to the streets
rest in peace young nigga
There's a heaven for a 'g'
Be a lie if I told you that I never thought of death
my niggas
we're the last ones left
Life Goes On....

I was at high school meeting last week and at this meeting it was announced that in November, 100 students took a "pre-Accuplacer" exam. This exam tests general assessments in sentence skills, reading comprehension, arithmetic, elementary algebra and college-level mathematics. The testing assessment measures whether incoming college freshman students have the necessary skills for college or university study, or whether they would benefit from taking further practice or developmental courses designed to improve key academic skills.

Of the 100 students tested... only SEVEN, let me repeat that SEVEN, students placed proficient in ALL categories. That means if those seven students were to go to college today, they would be ready. The other 93 would need to take and pay for remedial non-credit classes AFTER they graduated from high school.

This seems to contradict the news that came out today about us being the top ranked school system in the United States...

Quote:

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Schools in Maryland have received another No. 1 national ranking, and one local school system had a big hand in achieving it,

according to the AP Report to the Nation

.For the fourth straight year, Maryland high school seniors ranked number one in the nation in passing Advanced Placement exams, with 29 percent of graduating seniors passing at least one AP exam with a score of 3 or above last year. The national average was 18 percent. The numbers were even higher in Montgomery County, where nearly half of graduating seniors passed an AP test. Montgomery County students accounted for 32 percent of students who passed a test statewide.While Maryland did rank number one nationally, there's still some concerns, as school systems in rural areas like Dorchester County do not have enough money to offer AP tests to its students.Elsewhere in the area, Virginia ranked No. 3 in the nation with 25.6 percent of graduating seniors registering a qualifying score in at least one AP exam. D.C. came in third from the bottom with 6.6 percent of graduating seniors passing an AP exam -- ahead of only Louisiana and Mississippi.

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I think that both the USA and Europe is letting themselves down in the area of education.
Look at how they study in China, Korea, Japan, and other Asian countries.
Russians used to be top class scholars too, study really hard - I don't know what it's like now.

But large parts of Europe the school discipline is awful and the kids know almost nothing.

I read about some refugee kids coming to Sweden from Syria. They were way ahead of the Swedish kids in all subjects, because they were actually forced to sit down, pay attention and study in their school. They were totally shocked that we have all the prerequisites to have good schools here, yet the schools are a disgrace. From what I understand, things are even worse in the USA where gang members turn up with guns to school and most of the kids care only about showing up in school for the social life.

China must be laughing at us, and if we all don't get our act together in this area.

A while back, this excellent series was on the BBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXBg...eature=related

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I think that both the USA and Europe is letting itself down in the area of education.
Look at how they study in China, Korea, Japan, and other Asian countries.
Russians used to be top class scholars too, study really hard - I don't know what it's like now.

But large parts of Europe the school discipline is awful and the kids know almost nothing.

I read about some refugee kids coming to Sweden from Syria. They were way ahead of the Swedish kids in all subjects, because they were actually forced to sit down, pay attention and study in their school. They were totally shocked that we have all the prerequisites to have good schools here, yet the schools are a disgrace. From what I understand, things are even worse in the USA where gang members turn up with guns to school and most of the kids care only about showing up in school for the social life.

China must be laughing at us, and if we all don't get our act together in this area.

A while back, this excellent series was on the BBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXBgc7JRZg&feature=related

---

The interest in schooling in any given country, while obviously a topic which can be tied to many interests (women's libbers could say "we want better education in order to make our future generations better educated about our gender rights issues"; ultra-cons could say "we want.. so people know the dangers of communism" etc etc), is ultimately about one thing, and that is INIQUITY.

"What a weird thing to say Kidkboom!" Yes, but it's true. Ultimately the paradigm I'm seeing here is not one of cooperation but of COMPETITION. So, the prize here is not "knowledge" but INIQUITY - that one country should have an imbalance of information superior to another's. That their people should have an imbalance of information superior to another people's. We can beat around the bush all day but that's the topic at hand.

So, when in a competitive paradigm, we look at the performance bottleneck. Much like a runner examines his running stance and his shoes and his knees and everything that could be a performance bottleneck, here we look at the political structures that create and maintain these scholastic functions.

To put it simply and save a lot of headache, these systems vary a lot. It's easiest to lock education into "HIGH" position when the popular or autonomous freedom/control buttons have been switched "OFF." I don't know much about Syria but they don't look to me to be a country that's highly focused on human freedoms and the ability to act autonomously as individual within the system. I.e. the autonomous freedom button is switched "OFF" or at least set to "LOW," and to put it simply, people will do what they're told to do.

I believe here in the states our trade-off is a low amount of control over the results of the individuals in the system, and a high amount of freedom for exploration given to those individuals WITHIN the system. One boon to public schooling in America almost never mentioned is the rather unique freedom to choose classes, electively and selectively, throughout Middle and High school, a privelege most countries if I'm not mistaken don't receive until college (and as to the selective nature of classes in some state-paid-for colleges in Europe, including Russia, I'm really not sure how much freedom they are given!). Whle the merit of this might be hard to see from an external point of view, it's reflective of the individuals' freedoms within the system, freedoms I suspect no Syrian student has ever been offered.

But what's to be said about the student, psychiatrically? In one country you've got a group of people who learn things having been driven to them by INTEREST and INTRIGUE, by FASCINATION, by a sheer desire to KNOW a thing. In another, you've got a group of people who learn because they are afraid of what will be done in REPERCUSSION if they don't obey this order. Those things they learn will be what they are told to learn, and they will not study with the glint of an interested student such as Einstein or Tesla, who learned what they had a passion for. Instead they will have a cold, flat, lifeless if accurate understanding of the information, which may function well if building nuclear warheads to exact specs under a harsh military timeline, but will most certainly never turn out a Dr. Suess or a John Williams.

You can tune a computer to operate at a very high efficiency, but it increases the rate of burn-out.

Really I guess it's about what you want as a result, at the end of the day.

Just my two cents.

PS - Guns in schools may seem uniquely American, but that's again because of freedoms - we're allowed to have guns as citizens here. In the UK I doubt this has ever happened, but I'm not sure I'd trade liberty for safety on this one.. =\

(Silver Lining: If Chechen terrorists take over an american school, they will have to pat down all the students)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rockzmom

I was at high school meeting last week and at this meeting it was announced that in November, 100 students took a "pre-Accuplacer" exam. This exam tests general assessments in sentence skills, reading comprehension, arithmetic, elementary algebra and college-level mathematics. The testing assessment measures whether incoming college freshman students have the necessary skills for college or university study, or whether they would benefit from taking further practice or developmental courses designed to improve key academic skills.

Of the 100 students tested... only SEVEN, let me repeat that SEVEN, students placed proficient in ALL categories. That means if those seven students were to go to college today, they would be ready. The other 93 would need to take and pay for remedial non-credit classes AFTER they graduated from high school.

This seems to contradict the news that came out today about us being the top ranked school system in the United States...

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Rockzmom... There's no chance in a million years that the funding behind this test comes from a source that's tied to folks who sell, oh i don't know, say, private tutoring for post high school kids who want to brush up on a few things at a high rate of pay before going to college?

KidK -I think there can be a bit too much of a good thing though - I mean free thinking and creativity.
If you visit a good private school you'll quickly notice that there is a lot more discipline. A bit of that is needed if the kids are to actually learn anything. So if the kids whos parents can afford to pay get that, then why not the regular kids? If the system just lets them hang around and do nothing, then they are just being let down.
A mix of free thinking and serious studies is surely best.

I certainly don't support cramming factories, but what I am seeing in Sweden is just way over the top. Freedom and creativity is all that counts. Kids are ignorant about subjects and disrespectful towards teachers. That is more freedom than what is good for them. Unless they want to be cheap uneducated labour in a Chinese owned factory in ten years time!

About Syrian schools - I just remember that BBC made a really long series on that too. It doesn't seem too bad. Here is an episode. The series was broadcast a few years ago. I thought it was interesting. Ugly school uniform though!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiI6jf1P-Yg