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Are Russians too conservative?
Well, starting a thread is the last thing I feel like doing now, since I don't have that much time but I've read a comment about Russians today on another forum that said:
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...no amount of oil and gas can fix Russia's problems. The oligarchy will become richer, not the people en masse... the nation is at large racist, anti-gay, and anti what not. For the most part it is an ignorant, superstitious, ultra-conservative nation.
It got me thinking, esp. in light of the thread on homosexuals... Do you think it's true? Do we need to change and become more progressive as a society? Is the Western model, say, of family life necessarily the best one? I disagree with the "ignorant" part and I don't think the majority of Russians are racist. I have met individuals who are. I was once dating a guy who saw fit to ask me on the third date about whether I could marry a "coloured" ("цветной") man. I was really shocked at this. Digging deeper I learned that he didn't have a very high opinion about people with darker skin. I was young, green, and naive and didn't know that racism still existed. I'd just read "To Kill a Mocking Bird" by Harper Lee so the mere fact that anyone should have such ideas was very strange -- like, what age are you living in, man? He wasn't exactly Russian by descent, as a matter of fact, but there are enough Russian jerks as well, so...
I do think that such individuals are rare, though. I was reading comments on the film "Slumdog Millionaire" a few days ago and the majority were very favourable except for one who said something along the lines "не хочу смотреть кино про чурок" -- what a disgusting word, that.
I have now become quite an Indophile (yes, yes, I know, у кого, что болит...) and the thing that strikes me is that they seem to have very conservative views in marriage, for example. But to me, it's a good thing -- marriage and family are considered a sacred thing there and people aren't in a hurry to get a divorce every time a little disagreement comes up. So in this respect, I think India shouldn't lose its traditions and identity. The castes, on the other hand, are def. a thing to be shed... Well, what about Russia?
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by starrysky
But to me, it's a good thing -- marriage and family are considered a sacred thing [...]
The biggest problem is that there's no objective measure. I mean, the only objective (biological) measure is reproductivity, but based on that there should be no divorces, only the fittest should reproduce, etc. There would be no place for love (and desire). I personally perceive that as an inhumane society. Why? Because I've been raised in Russian culture where love is important. In the caste system, love can or cannot be important based on the other more sacred factors. I recently spoke with an Indian colleague and he said that presently in India you can as a couple ignore the caste system if you love each other, but you would have to leave your parents (for whom the caste is more important than love) and move to another place where nobody knows you.
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Originally Posted by starrysky
Do we need to change and become more progressive as a society?
What is a progressive society? People en mass rarely reflect on what they are doing, let alone on what type of society they are. They form their opinions based on very arbitrary factors, such as who can say things cooler, stricter, funnier and louder. Other things are just the society customs. For example: inmates in Russian jails despise "roosters", but almost anyone can become a "rooster" after being "put down". And those very same "roosters" are "being used" by those very same inmates! How's that working with the logic? No logic. The society custom.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Do we need to change and become more progressive as a society?
Of course not. What a dumb question.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Are Russians too conservative?
Yes
The DOT.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
I think the main questions here are - What is "conservative" and what is "progressive"?
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by Eugene-p
The DOT.
=> Period. (I think)
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
A little explanation of what Russians hate (at least me):
1. A man should f..k a woman and there are no other combinations. Never.
2. Yes, I am a rasist a bit. I strongly HATE some folks.
3. If a woman would paid for me in a restaurant or something, she would insult me very hard. I say it.
4. The marriage has 2 sides: the public one and the private one. I would be very glad if one takes part in th public one, but, ....you know what....
Okay, that's enough.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by Eugene-p
Okay, that's enough.
Would you care to justify your point of view? I mean, what you just mentioned is not even conservative. :roll:
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
Conservative, but not tto much. The society is splitted into two implacable camps: commy and pro-Western people. The pro-Western people copy blindly everything from the West, while the commy part denies everything that does'n smell with naphthalene. And there are a lot of people in between. Regardless political view, most Russians consider things to be better quality if those things were made in Germany, France, America, Japan and other countries.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by mishau_
The society is splitted into two implacable camps: commy and pro-Western people.
Ha ha ha ha ha :lol:
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by starrysky
...no amount of oil and gas can fix Russia's problems. The oligarchy will become richer, not the people en masse... the nation is at large racist, anti-gay, and anti what not. For the most part it is an ignorant, superstitious, ultra-conservative nation.
Why we need to love gays and negroes to live better?
I first seen a negro when I was a child (approximately 7-8 years old). I was shocked, cried, and ran to my mother. She explained me that far away are living black-skinned people (called negroes), and sometimes they are going to Russia, even into our small town Taganrog.
So, if they are so good, why they are scaring small children?
Concerning the gays... Imagine old Soviet film. A young girl crying to a soldier going to a war: «I love you! I will wait you forever!» The soldier answering: «I want to say you something important! I am a gay...» and doing deep kiss to another soldier. Cannot imagine? Me too.
P.S. What is «anti-what-not»?
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
Thanks for replies, everyone.
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
The biggest problem is that there's no objective measure. I mean, the only objective (biological) measure is reproductivity, but based on that there should be no divorces, only the fittest should reproduce, etc. There would be no place for love (and desire). I personally perceive that as an inhumane society. Why? Because I've been raised in Russian culture where love is important. In the caste system, love can or cannot be important based on the other more sacred factors. I recently spoke with an Indian colleague and he said that presently in India you can as a couple ignore the caste system if you love each other, but you would have to leave your parents (for whom the caste is more important than love) and move to another place where nobody knows you.
Thanks for the insight, Croc. The reason I mentioned India is because I was quite struck with the respect they seem to have for marriage, just to compare Bollywood couples who seem to be pretty constant and the Hollywood ones who are splitting right, left and centre... I do think that respect for family and marriage are things that should be upheld... supported and promoted. I grew up seeing and hearing so much about divorce, and seeing beautiful and seemingly reasonable couples breaking up, I was quite convinced I should never marry at all -- what for, if you're gonna split up anyway.
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Originally Posted by Crocodile
What is a progressive society? People en mass rarely reflect on what they are doing, let alone on what type of society they are. They form their opinions based on very arbitrary factors, such as who can say things cooler, stricter, funnier and louder. Other things are just the society customs. For example: inmates in Russian jails despise "roosters", but almost anyone can become a "rooster" after being "put down". And those very same "roosters" are "being used" by those very same inmates! How's that working with the logic? No logic. The society custom.
These things are sort of biological -- you can see them in hens, for example: hierarchy, pecking order, Alpha and Omega hens, who can peck whom, etc. It's supposed to reduce aggression -- when everyone knows their place in the scale of things (at least, that's what we were told in ecology lessons). But human beings can build a better society.
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Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors
Of course not. What a dumb question.
I'm not sure I know what you mean... Do you mean that Russians are anti-gay and racist and so on but there's no need to change it or that we are nothing of the sort? If the latter, I wish I could be as confident as you and refute such accusaions with a simple "stuff and nonsense." :D This opinion about Russians as racists seems to be rather spread. At least I'm a bit tired of reading such things. It's not as though there are no skinheads in GB, for instance.
Threads on Russian are habitually closed at the message board I took that quote from because they frequently degenerate into dubbing Russians "racist" and so on. Like this one.
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Originally Posted by "Crocodile
Period. (I think)
Uh-huh. Or "full stop" in British English.
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Originally Posted by SAn
So, if they are so good, why they are scaring small children?
*amused*Have you seen no black people in pictures or cartoons, like "Каникулы Бонифация"? I was at a practice in school a few years ago and they had a black girl staying. She was SO popular, kids were fighting amongst themselves to be her friend, to sit with her, to walk round the school with her and so on.
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Originally Posted by SAn
P.S. What is «anti-what-not»?
whatnot = и т.п.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by SAn
I first seen a negro when I was a child (approximately 7-8 years old). I was shocked, cried, and ran to my mother.
What???? Why? :lol:
И разве негры виноваты в твоей тонкой душевной организации? :mosking:
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Concerning the gays... Imagine old Soviet film. A young girl crying to a soldier going to a war: «I love you! I will wait you forever!» The soldier answering: «I want to say you something important! I am a gay...» and doing deep kiss to another soldier. Cannot imagine? Me too.
You mean like this? :)
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/262/brovl.jpg
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
The American Conservatism consists of these basic values:
1. Religion. This is not that popular in Russia.
2. Traditional family, sexual life values. Ok, here we're similar.
3. Personal freedom fondness, it, among everything, implies conservative attitude to a government role in a society - the smaller it is the better. It's completely different from the mainstream Russian point of view.
4. Financial self-responsibility. This is not what most Russians see as a value. "Putin must divide the oil and gas revenues equally among all the citizens"
5. Nationalism. The American nationalism has much in common with the Russian one (not ethnically oriented), and, at the same time, much different, since the Russian's directed towards the state: 'I'm a soldier of a victorious empire, ave, Caesar!'
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
I think of myself as a rather conservative person. (I mean I'd be only sightseeing in Amsterdam.) So, being absolutely straight, I don't understand at all what those gay guys find in each other. However, if I don't understand, it doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong, so my conservatism dictates: if in doubt, don't do anything (hostile or otherwise) towards them with respect to that matter.
As for the black guys living in Russia... well, people migrate from place to place. It's a fact. And if someone doesn't happen to acknowledge that simple fact, I'd suggest that racist person go back to his Africa! (Since that's where the parents of all the presently living humans have come from [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve ]).
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Yes, I mean... Oh no! :shock:
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
My answer on the question of the topic: yes, we are conservative indeed, speaking about myself at least, cause when I'll see such news event happening in Russia I guess it willl be the Apocalypse eve :shock: :
Drunk female bishop caught driving during the lent
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
Russians are free in comparison with Americans:
- We are free to go to the center of city and cry than we hate negroes. Americans can't do it. They will go to a prison due to rasism.[/*:m:1kfpxk9a]
- We can slap the bottom of nice girl-colleague and she will smile to us. Americans can't do it. They will go to a prison due to sexual harassment.[/*:m:1kfpxk9a]
- We can download and watch any pirated movie from the Internet (I even have a small computer permanently connected to a flat-panel TV, so I just need to type movie title and wait 15 minutes until it is downloaded). Americans can't do it. They will go to a prison due to computer piracy.[/*:m:1kfpxk9a]
- In every student dormitory we have local computrer network with all learning materials, scanned textbooks etc. I have read terrible stories about american students paying huge fines for that due to copyright infringement.[/*:m:1kfpxk9a]
- I don't know how in Moscow, but in Taganrog most of satellite receivers are sold with hacked firmware, so they automatically download channel keys from the Internet. Sellers do it because they know that no sane person will buy satellite receiver if he will need to pay separately for the channels. It is as stupid as paying for the air you breath. So we are free to watch any satellite channel for free.[/*:m:1kfpxk9a]
Americans live in a fear of law. And they are trying to make the whole world live like that. Life got worse!
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
SAn, sorry but you are a sick bastard. Please, keep that idiotic "jokes" of yours for yourself. Stop terrorizing people with your stupid "humor"! :evil:
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
Ok, I have removed it. Sorry if hurted your feelings.
Instead a have added interesting fact about hacked satellite receivers.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by SAn
We are free to go to the center of city and cry than we hate negroes.
Idiots are free to do anything in any place.
I wonder who are those "we" though. Are you many? Or is it only your family?
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
Well you should judge YOUR country by YOUR standards, right?
If Russians begin to have a problem with any of this, then it's a problem; if not - whoever made that comment should mind his/her own business! Personally I have not noticed that Russians are particularly conservative or intolerant.
All those things that are referred to as lacking in Russia are part of the concept known as "political correctness" (PC) in English. That refers to having a set of values that are socially acceptable.... People who don't conform to these opinions are generally hung out in media, or considered strange by others. I do not agree with some of this, but I generally keep that to myself.
Example of political correct values right now:
- Homosexuality is just the same as heterosexuality, homosexuals should have all the same rights and be able to be open about their relationships. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
- Men and women are the same in every way and traditional gender roles are wrong..[/*:m:8mev4g1k]
- Skin colour is irrelevant. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
- Democracy (per Western definition) is the only acceptable form of government.. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
- All religions are ok, apart from strict Islam or fundamentalist Christianity. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
- Capitalism is right, but there should be some protection for the people who are not able to cope in a capitalist society, i.e. people who cannot find a job, or people who are victims of unfortunate circumstances. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
- Be paranoid about islamist terrorists! They hate us and want to kill us! [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
- Be paranoid about peadophiles... They might snatch your child! [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
- Be paranoid about Iran, North Korea... (axis of evil) might nuke us! [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
- Because of the above objects of paranoia and to protect people from them... it should be allowed to spy on people who are potential terrorists and detain them without trial... Also because of this, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are acceptable. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]
- Be mildly concerned about human rights and lack of democracy in Russia, China etc... +be a little bit concerned about anything that the Russian army does...[/*:m:8mev4g1k]
+some more.
So Russia falls a bit short on a few of these.. (meaning that it does not live up to some of these ideals) But Russia has a different perspective, and different experiences! Why would / should you have the same view on things as someone from Holland or Canada etc? And what right has anyone to critisise your viewpoint? You are not forcing it on anyone else, and those who don't enjoy living in Russia can leave and live somewhere else... So what's this persons problem?
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by Оля
Idiots are free to do anything in any place.
I wonder who are those "we" though. Are you many? Or is it only your family?
И чего же вы всё серьёзно так воспринимаете...
Заметьте, кстати, что я никого не назвал «sick bastard» или «idiot», к примеру.
Я получаю удовольствие, вызывая у людей эмоции (положительные или отрицательные — не важно). Поэтому рождаются сообщения наподобие того, что я написал выше. Вам придётся к этому привыкнуть.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by SAn
И чего же вы всё серьёзно так воспринимаете...
Заметьте, кстати, что я никого не назвал «sick bastard» или «idiot», к примеру.
Лучше бы уж назвал. Знаешь, во всяком общении, включая и общение на форуме, существуют определённые рамки, или это уже не общение, а базар. Я считаю, что каждый имеет право на свои собственные представления о том, что смешно, а что нет, поэтому не комментировал твои предыдущие посты, хотя чувство юмора у тебя, ИМХО, очень
своеобразное. Но твоя последняя "острота", это уже не просто моветон, а вообще полный финиш - дальше уже ехать некуда, что называется. Так что извини, если я тебя оскорбил, но я остаюсь при своём мнении и своих слов назад не возьму.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by SAn
Я получаю удовольствие, вызывая у людей эмоции (положительные или отрицательные — не важно). Поэтому рождаются сообщения наподобие того, что я написал выше. Вам придётся к этому привыкнуть.
Ну... раз так, тогда вот:
http://s.lurkmore.ru/images/8/85/52.png
:"": :"": :"":
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
Кончайте базар! Всем дружить! :instruct:
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by Lampada
Кончайте базар! Всем дружить! :instruct:
... в тряпочку!
(Типа еще один юморист...)
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
Самые консервативные в современной Руси - это ряженые нагаечники. У них даже телесные наказания есть.
(только вы меня не выдавайте, а то поймают и высекут :instruct: )
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by starrysky
Thanks for the insight, Croc.
You're most welcome, Ma-starrysky. :rose:
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by SAn
Russians are free in comparison with Americans:
- We are free to go to the center of city and cry than we hate negroes. Americans can't do it. They will go to a prison due to rasism.[/*:m:2r0ur5hw]
Go to prison? Don't be f***ing ridiculous, dude.
The Negroes would strip the meat from your bones with their razor-sharp teeth (after first paralyzing you with the fast-acting neurotoxins in their poison glands) before the police could even think about arresting you.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by SAn
Why we need to love gays and negroes to live better?
Are you serious or joking here, SAn? 'Cause it's a strange question. Would answers like, "because we are all human beings, all in one boat, so treat others as you would like to be treated", ring a bell with you?
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Originally Posted by Johanna
Well you should judge YOUR country by YOUR standards, right?
If Russians begin to have a problem with any of this, then it's a problem; if not - whoever made that comment should mind his/her own business! Personally I have not noticed that Russians are particularly conservative or intolerant.
...
All those things that are referred to as lacking in Russia are part of the concept known as "political correctness" (PC) in English.
...
Why would / should you have the same view on things as someone from Holland or Canada etc? And what right has anyone to critisise your viewpoint? You are not forcing it on anyone else, and those who don't enjoy living in Russia can leave and live somewhere else... So what's this persons problem?
Rrrright. I just realized this thread pretty much reiterates Croc's "Политкорректность или политкорявость"... Sorry, Crocodile-ji. :oops: :wink:
Regarding the right to criticize... or absence thereof... It's a valid point but the attitude "моя хата с краю, ничего не знаю" is never going to work now. The international community, the EU officials/observers are always worried now about what's going on in all parts of the world, be it the arrest of generals in Turkey or military coup in some African country; and anxious to promote democracy, impose Western values, equal rights for men and women and so on.
As I said, I wouldn't worry if it wasn't just one person voicing this opinion about Russia but it seems to come up quite often so that's why I got curious if it has any foundation.
All right, when in doubt, go to Wikipedia (yes, yes, I know it's notoriously unreliable):
Racism
Racism in Russia
Racism in Europe
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In May 2006, Amnesty International reported that racially motivated killings in Russia were "out of control" and that at least 28 people were killed in 2005.[1]In 2006, Amnesty International registered 252 victims of racist crimes, of which 21 died. In February 2007, President Vladimir Putin asked the Federal Security Service to combat racism,[2] but hate crimes still increased. From January 1 to July 31, 2007, Amnesty International registered 310 victims of neo-Nazi and racist crimes in Russia; 37 of those victims died as a result of attacks. Amnesty International criticize Russian police for not doing enough to combat racist crimes, and for often ignoring reports from civilians about threats and crimes.[3] According to the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, from January to March, 2008, 49 people were killed in assaults by radical nationalists, 28 of them in the greater Moscow area, and an estimated 118 people in total were killed in the whole of 2008. However, it is worth noting that the Moscow Human Rights Bureau focuses almost exclusively on victims of ethnic minority backgrounds, therefore a number of racist attacks on ethnic Russians may go unreported.
The number of Russian neo-Nazis is estimated at around 85,000, "half of the world's total", according to western news agencies.[4][5]. The director of the Human Rights Bureau, Alexander Brod, stated that surveys show xenophobia and other racist expressions are prevalent in 50 percent of Russians.[6]
Bleak outlook, ain't it?
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by starrysky
The number of Russian neo-Nazis is estimated at around 85,000, "half of the world's total", according to western news agencies.[4][5].
Bleh.. I checked the sources 4 and 5.
#4 says "According to Semyon Charny of the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, there are an estimated 70,000 skinheads in Russia".
#5 states that "there are now an estimated 50,000 to 70,000 neo-Nazis, half of the world's total".
Wikipedia decided to add 15 thousands more just to be on the safe side. Well done. :good:
So it seems that the number of neo-Nazis is uncertain (but regardless of what it is it's always "half of the world's total"). No sources of this information are given, and how mister Charny got this number is a mystery. He could say 200 thousands for all I know. The others seem to choose a number to their liking betwen 50,000 and 100,000.
I wonder how many Nazis/skinheads in Russia for real. I remember Olya saying that she's never seen a skinhead in her life, while mishau_ (if I remember correctly) was sure that Russia is swarming with them. Are there any reliable sources?
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
..I remember Olya saying that she's never seen a skinhead in her life..
So am I. I saw them only on TV.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
while mishau_ (if I remember correctly) was sure that Russia is swarming with them.
No you do not remember correctly, perhaps you memory plays some tricks on you. :yahoo:
Though I was called once to witness in a skinhead case.
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by mishau_
No you do not remeber correctly, perhaps you memory plays some tricks on you. :yahoo:
Ha-ha, sorry. It was an educated guess. :D
Well, let's say that there was someone who had an opposing point of view. )
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
So it seems that the number of neo-Nazis is uncertain (but regardless of what it is it's always "half of the world's total").
"There are lies, there are damned lies, and there are statistics."
(Or, "in the original Klingon" :wink: : Ложь, проклятая ложь, и статистика.)
Often attributed to Mark Twain, but although Twain loved the quote and helped popularize it, he himself gave credit to Disraeli. But the witticism can't be found in any of Disraeli's published writings, and the real author is probably the celebrated Mr. A. Nonymous.
Anyway, "half of the world's neo-Nazis are in Russia" reminds me of "50% of American students can't find the U.S. on a world map" -- it's a pseudo-statistic based on [s:vm9v5vqm]sloppy[/s:vm9v5vqm] "creative" methodology, and therefore a type of lie -- but arguably a "noble lie", since the purpose is to shame one's countrymen into self-improvement. In other words, it's a form of national self-criticism, which is why statistics of this type are widely repeated without skepticism-- people understand them to be a moral challenge, and not an attack.
P.S. Some skeptics have pointed out that the widespread popularity of "50% of American students can't find the U.S. on a world map" in TV news reports and newspaper editorials probably tells us nothing useful about the actual state of geographic education in the U.S., but does prove beyond the smallest doubt that most American journalists flunked "Statistical Analysis 101"! :D
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by starrysky
I just realized this thread pretty much reiterates Croc's "Политкорректность или политкорявость"... Sorry, Crocodile-ji. :oops: :wink:
(Removed my shoes first.) Namaste, Ma-starrysky. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iH-GyxTSff...45/Namaste.jpg (And gave a gift with my two hands to the eldest woman of your house.) I would hope we'd be moving somewhere in either of the threads. And yours is in English, so don't worry - by no means you steal my thunder. (And even if you do, I care for it as much as Ramil . :hlop: )
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
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Originally Posted by mishau_
No you do not remeber correctly, perhaps you memory plays some tricks on you. :yahoo:
It was an educated guess. :D
Yes, it was an anecdotal case. :roll:
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
So it seems that the number of neo-Nazis is uncertain (but regardless of what it is it's always "half of the world's total"). No sources of this information are given, and how mister Charny got this number is a mystery. He could say 200 thousands for all I know. The others seem to choose a number to their liking betwen 50,000 and 100,000.
OK, I know I'm a real "тормоз" in replying to this :) but I hear there's an upsurge of hate crimes in connection with the recent bombings. Not just towards Muslims but just people with swarthy skin. I don't care how many skinheads there are exactly, it seems that the rate of crimes is high enough. It irritates the heck out of me that such "уроды" even exist. Why don't you all guys care? Just because it doesn't touch you personally? I remember gRomoZeka getting all riled up about cameras in supermarkets and the whole paranoia stuff. Well, here we have people dying and being beaten on a regular basis and no one seems to care. This problem doesn't touch me personally either (as long as I don't marry an Asian-looking guy, for example). But the mere fact that such things happen!
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Re: Are Russians too conservative?
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Originally Posted by starrysky
Why don't you all guys care? Just because it doesn't touch you personally?
I agree with you, but it's a rhetoric question, isn't it?