Ничего! :D
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Ничего! :D
Ой, я этого не подозревал. Правда, мне уже кто-то здесь сказал, что от меня «веет стариной», но до такой степени... Надо как-нибудь поправить это. Я вот уже купил себе сборник повестей Булгакова. Откладывал чтение, считая, что лучше начать с самого начала, но, оказывается, уже пора приниматься за него! Спасибо, Оля, что предупредила.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
So, Johanna, you see you were right indeed. Оля just told me that I sound very much like some guy from 2 centuries ago. Looks like I'll have to change my plan of getting into Russian literature in chronological order.
Не надо поправлять. Это круто. (It's cool.) Это ОЧЕНЬ круто! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
[quote=it-ogo]Не надо поправлять. Это круто. (It's cool.) Это ОЧЕНЬ круто! :)[/quote:3l2e7s1w]Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
+1. Ага, я тоже так считаю! :good:
Oh, was that your plan?Quote:
Originally Posted by zubr
It's a very admirable & noble plan... :good:
All I've noticed is that you can write quite long texts in Russian and only get very few corrections. Very envious.
:bravo:
I agree with the others that there is something cool about speaking like a 19th century person. But I guess it's not convenient in everyday situations though: At the supermarket, at work, etc. Maybe you should introduce some modern films and litterature just to balance it a bit. Torrents.ru.
I am taking the exact opposite approach to you... I am making it too easy and convenient for myself. The reason is that I am *really* worried that I will find it too hard, or get bored and lose my motivation. So I am trying to learn in fun and interesting way. As a result I have yet to seriously try to tackle the grammar. So far I have only tried to learn from examples. I recently forced myself to start learning the principles of general grammar (forgot it....) in preparation for my inevitable confrontation with the Russian grammar.... But because I've been making it too easy I haven't made as much progress as I would have liked to.
I have tried to vary my study methods, from flashcards, to films and a standard foreign language text book. I've even done "Pimsleur"... am just finishing it. The pace is unbelievably slow.... I considering whether to do the Assimil "La russe sans peine" as well, for good measure... Apparently it's a little bit more challenging. Anyone done it?
:shock:
Hmm, I for one don't think Zubr's Russian is old-fashioned... On the contrary it's very sophisticated, quite easy and there seem to be very few mistakes. I mean, considering how difficult Russian grammar is, it's definitely a huge achievement to be able to decline and conjugate all words correctly, and to express oneself with considerable ease. So, way to go, Zubr! You are our "отличник". :good:
Russian also didn't really change all that much since Pushkin -- I mean, if you compare modern English and the English in which Jane Austen wrote -- there's a huge difference there, it seems like every third word she uses acquired a different meaning since then, or went out of use altogether.
The "Вздумай я" expression is, I grant you, a bit old-fashioned but educated Russians who read a lot will often use some such expressions -- if only for fun. Like "ибо" or the "-с" particle.
But I agree that reading modern lit and watching films is crucial because only then you can appreciate the modern spoken language.
That's the right approach, Johanne. And I see you're making progress, too. :thumbs:Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanne
Oh, I made a typically Russian grammatical error! :mosking: I am turning Russian, lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by Starrysky
I left out the definite article in the sentence quoted above. (it's just a typo.) But can you see which article I missed, and where it should be? Plus, the sentence probably sounds better if "ways" and plural is used instead of singular.
As Rockzmom says, everybody should try to use the best possible language here, rather than being sloppy.
As for my "fun and interesting studies", :yahoo: I decided to watch a bit of "Stirlitz" and posted my review in the Videos section.
My apologies. Why on Earth would one want to give up the pure and heavenly sounding classical Russian language for some brutally cut and shallowly substantiated 'modern Russian'? I like the way it sounds, "возьми я..". Actually I miss the fidelity and delicateness of older written and spoken Russian. I believe that if most of the native speakers abandoned their heritage for jargon and borrowed computer/marketing/PR terminology, it would be foreingers who would teach us how to speak the wonderful language of our classical writers.Quote:
Zubr, тебе надо срочно читать современную русскую литературу или смотреть современные фильмы. Ты пишешь на устаревшем русском, как будто это абзац из Лермонтова или Пушкина. Это выглядит довольно странно, и думаю, тебе надо об этом сказать.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
I'm at work now so no Youtube for me. But I'll watch the clip when I get home and post my comments.
BTW, here is a bit of info about the origin of the word Dutch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietsch
Oh, I didn't notice the typo. I'd say an indefinite artcile would be OK in this sentence:Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
So I am trying to learn in a fun and interesting way.
К чему этот пафос?Quote:
Originally Posted by Капитан
Lermontov's or Pushkin's language could be perfect, but nowadays people speak a bit different. That's not bad or good, that's reality.
Ok, so about the video of the guy speaking Russian, French, Dutch and a bunch of other languages: wow! I just watched his Dutch video and I have to say I was very impressed. There are some very minor grammatical mistakes but he speaks incredibly freely. His accent still strikes me as foreign but that is because he is speaking with a (Northern) Dutch accent rather than a Flemish accent. But his accent, even though it's not the accent I'm used to, is very good. Well, maybe someone from the Netherlands would disagree but to me he sounds almost like a real "голландец".
Starrysky, that's exactly the error. Olya, you made a grammar mistake that all Americans make as a rule, haha! Namely, you used a verb when you should have used an adverb. (Hope I got the grammatical terminology right... )
For some reason Americans always drop (ignore) the "-ly" ending, which is what Olya did too, just this once. Not sure why it's dropped... But it has to be wrong.. Or? I don't know! But to a British person it sounds like bad grammar.Quote:
nowadays people speak a bit differentLY.
To get back to the topic of "snobbism": If regional dialects don't exist and there are no "class-differences" in pronounciation, then there is less scope for snobbism.
When I was using "Livemocha.com" for a while earlier this year I was really suspicious to the pronounciation tips from everyone other than people from Moscow/StP.... How silly! I had no idea that everyone has the same dialect.
Some people might think that accents are charming or whatever.. But not having them is really practical and fair; in the UK having the "wrong" accent is a serious handicap. Sweden has some incredibly ugly accents which just sound dreadful to everyone but those who speak the same way.
Haha, I just realised, "Luca" speaks SWEDISH too.. But it doesn't seem to be one of his better langauges. He's talking relatively comprehensibly for a while about his appreciation of Swedish women (naturally!!!) but after that he starts rambling and doesn't make a lot of sense.
But the question is; Is he just being a "parrot" repeating back the phases from courses such as Pimsleur? Can he really read a paper in Russian or get a regular job where he has to speak Dutch or Swedish?
I guess some people collect languages like others collect stamps etc. Like a hobby. I see it as purely a practical matter; wanting to speak to people, work with people, read things that otherwise would not be accesible.
Learning English was not a choice for me. It was an absolute necessity. People who fail English in school cannot go to university in large parts of Europe. Luckily for me I had plenty of exposure to English in my teens, so it was not as hard as it could have been. I haven't managed to learn any other languages to a seriously useful level.
Мне очень понравился вопрос, поэтому коротко тоже отвечу :) Мне кажется все зависит от того насколько уважают говорящего человека. Недавно видел передачу про наших теноров (певцов) там известный американский актер говорил по-русски, я испытал только уважение за это. НО если я смотрю фильм, где говорят Серьььеежжаа, яааа буудуу фаас упиииваать (изображаю акцент), то хочется только смеяться, неужели в Голливуде некому поставить русскую речь, непрофессионально как-то. Мое мнение, к иностранцам пытающихся говорить по-русски относятся хорошо. Замечу только, что если речь идет о странах раннее входящих в СССР, то тут у каждого индивидуально играет чувство обиды, как это так украинцы, литовцы и т.д. не говорят по-русски и винят нас во всех грехах. И отдельная тема - Кавказ и Азия, думаю очень много людей агрессивно относится к тому, что гастарбайтеры плохо говорят по-русски, думаю в Америке с латиноамериканцами также, причины думаю ясны.
К чему такой выпендрёж, - "пафос" это такое старомодное и книжное слово! :lol: Никто так не говорит.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Просто это всё зависит от того с кем и о чём идёт разговор. И в некоторых случаях именно такой, чуть старомодный русский, - самый правильный выбор, если, конечно, он хорошо у вас получается. :) В английском тоже, скажем, политик, не будет говорить что-нибудь типа "Y'all guys wanna ...", разве что в шутку, даже если такие фразы встречаются в повседневности.
И вообще, меня вот скажем, при изучении французского дико бесит, что, например, passé simple запихивают куда-то в конец учебников и справочников (про нормальное учебное аудио я уже забыл даже и думать), потому как "никто теперь так не говорит". При том, что меня интересует в первую очередь литература XIX века (где как раз "современное" прошедшее время используют редко), а не возможность запросто болтать с парижанами. :roll: Приходится извращаться...
As for the original topic... I don't know. Here in Riga, Latvians can be quite snobbish to unaccented Russian-speakers. But overall, having a foreign accent is OK, as long as you're understandable. In central Riga you can even just speak English. (don't expect good English in reply though...)
This was interesting to learn about. I have never met anybody from the Caucasus area or from Central Asia... But have met lots and lots of Baltic people. I think many of them actually like the Russian language and literature a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_K
The resentment might just be a temporary thing. When they leave their area and come to England or Scandinavia they are very happy to use their Russian skills and talk about it. I have also heard Baltic people speak warmly about some sides of the USSR. Both English and Scandinavian people are impressed that they are bilingual with Russian and their own language. I have heard of Scandinavian people who could speak a little bit Russian and used it in the Baltic states because people they met couldn't speak English.
In the long run it will definitely be beneficial for the Baltic states to be bilingual countries. It's a positive thing and I think they ought to make the most of it. Some of the most successful countries in Western Europe are bilingual: Switzerland, Belgium, Finland....
Interesting. How do you know which language to address people in in Riga? I heard it's about 50-50 in Riga between native Latvian speakers and native Russian speakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by ac220
Honestly I`m not quite sure how to describe it. The first few phrases can be a mix of two languages, and then it somehow settles into one both speakers are comfortable with. Something like...
- Мне пожалуйста, хот-дог и Кока-колу.
- Tās būs lats un deviņdesmit pieci... (Это будет один лат девяносто пять)
Siņepes, kečups?
After that I usually reply in Latvian and it continues like that from there, but if I'm distreacted,I can say "с горчицей" or, worse, make some gross error like "ar sinepes, lūdzu" (instead of the correct one, "ar siņepiem." Or was that the correct one? Why Latvians decided that mustard has to be always-plural? :) ) I really don't speak different languages that well unless I had an hour or two to "shift gears" so to speak... Then the seller can reply in Russian or she won't, and I'd have to correct myself... Or it may continue to be "bilingual".
Sort of like that. That's how we do it In Riga while doing important business, like selling something. :)
Somewhere in rural southeast Latvia it could be some local jargon no one else speaks (Ko tu броду по manu огороду? Ceļa рядом nau?) Or if the place is more monoethnic, you WILL get funny looks and jeers for speaking anything but local Latvian (or Russian or Latgalian )... :) :wacko:
Sorry for any bad English...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Actually, Belgium is trilingual: Dutch, French and German. And Switzerland even has 4 official languages (German, French, Italian and Romanche).
I wasn't aware Finland is bilingual. (thank you Wikipedia for educating me once again :instruct: )
I am a foreigner but you asked interesting questions, so I'll make some observations:
I met some people from Kazahkstan, they spoke Russian very well... but they looked Russian to me, so well - ok why did I even write this? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Russian is a very difficult language I think for most foreigners... I'd place it as a 3.5/5 or perhaps even 4/5 on the difficulty scale of European languages. One thing Russian has going for it is that the language is quite clear... the speech isn't sloppy like say Polish or French (at least those languages sound sloppy to my ears) or utterly alien and mystifying like Hungarian. So at least (with some exposure), you should be able to at least pick out the words - even if you have no idea what they mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Well ethnic Russians there certainly seem to :D but also I met some Latvian Latvians and they seem to speak Russian much better than most other foreigners I've met - but not as good as the Russian Latvians. At least from my experience. My understanding is that Latvia is still about 40% native (but treated like 2nd class citizens by the government) Russians, even with all the post Soviet emigration. But I could be mistaken, maybe the 40% figure is high now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Uzbeks (I'm guessing they are uzbeks since they sell the uzbek tasty bread), sound absolutely horrible... much worse than Arabs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
It is rare, especially if that Westerner is American. Many Americans living in Russia/Ukraine either have no interest in learning Russian, or if they do - it does not come to them easily (e.g. after 3 years of living, the -better- ones are just being able to hold conversation - even having had tutors for at least a year and being immersed for 3+ years - and still have absolutely horrible accents).Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
I'm sure there are some Americans that speak it well and with softer Accents but really the only ones I personally met that spoke it well were in the military. Americans have great difficulty even just pronouncing the language. They (as a rule) usually cannot seem to pronounce 2 consonants together (which is a common feature of Russian) nor can they do a rolling 'r'
There are some westerners that can converse "proficiently", but they still have quite noticeable accents usually.
There are 2 caveats to what I wrote... 1) I don't come in contact with too many foreigners living for a long time in Russia on Business and 2) same goes for students from Western countries... so I don't know about these groups, I suspect there must be some among them that can speak Russian quite well.
I did meet an Englishman who I was impressed by. He never studied it, merely lived in Ukraine a while and is married to a Russian speaker. But his is merely functional Russian, he was able to get his car fixed in front of me (explain the problem to a taxi driver, get taxi drive to drive him to mechanic, get mechanic to fix the problem) without any help from me, so I was impressed. But will he understand the evening news on TV, definitely no.
About Americans.. you can see why it is so difficult for them simply by listening to Russians speak English. I can safely say that in the US & Canada, the European nationality that has the most difficulty with English - that I've come across - is easily the Russians. Some Russians adults (of course kids are another story) will lose their accent in time, but it quite rare and usually those came over in their 20s. They also have a hell of a time with English grammar. Especially "a" and "the". The reason Russians have such problems compared to other Europeans is that much of English is just that much more foreign to them, and same goes for English speakers in relation to the Russian language. Even simple things often in Russian do not have a 1:1 mapping to English... like many of the prepositions.
It is surprising to me! :unknown:Quote:
Originally Posted by ycomp
I always tought Russians to be ..good learners) I mean Russian speech apparatus let us easily imitate different sounds... :oops:
Russians have extremely an difficult time getting rid of their accents... over time it will soften quite a bit, but still be very noticeable. There are a few that will lose it completely, but "few" is the operative word. I also have no problem identifying a Russian simply from the way they speak English. Ok, to tell you the truth I am not sure if I would be able to distinguish the Russian accent from a Ukrainian speaking English (since most of the Ukrainians I came across back home usually happened to be Russian Speakers - i.e. from Kiev, Crimea or the East... so I don't exactly know what Ukrainian Ukrainians speaking English sound like )Quote:
Originally Posted by silicium
Almost every Russian song I've heard where the singer sings in English, has a thick thick Russian accent... which is understandable because they live in the ex-USSR... but by comparison, Swedish pop - often I can't hear much of an accent at all in that.
I imagine it must be easier for Russians to sing well in Russian than English speakers to sing well in English, even I find it easier to sing in Russian than English lol... probably it is like the Chinese, many of them are great singers because the language is already semi-musical... which makes it really jarring when you hear a Chinese person who really can't sing - nevertheless they all love karaoke!
The one thing I never understood was why so many men find Russian accents on girls "very sexy". It really depends on the girl, but many of them have a very harsh accent that after a few years living in the west, will become softer (and then sound very sexy)... but the Dracula accent thing* doesn't really sound that attractive to me, perhaps the people that like that also enjoy Irish accents (which I find rather distracting). Perhaps I shouldn't call it the Dracula accent, but it is the best approximation. Not everyone has it, but many people do. That's the interesting thing really, how different in strength a person's accent may be - but they are all distinctly immediately identifiable as Russian
* note: these girls sound great speaking Russian (it is just in English their accent is super-thick).
p.s while I'm doing my observations, I might as well point out something else I always found rather interesting. Back home, in the west, I would often ask people where they are from (when I heard an accent - usually I had a guess in mind already... and in Russian people's cases I knew they were Russian speakers) but I would get all sorts of answers...
like:
Czech Republic (if the person is Czech)
Hungary (if the person is Hungarian)
Latvia (if the person is Latvian)
Poland (if the person is Polish)
Romania (if the person is Romanian)
... I think you can see a pattern here? :)
So what would a Russian or Ukrainian answer?
"Europe" of course! :D this happened in more than half the cases... not really sure how much more than half, but it was the majority. These were older people (over 40 usually), I was not making a habit of chatting up young people. So perhaps the young might respond differently
My theory is that perhaps some think that western people may not automatically like them? who knows?
I did talk to a Russian girl back home and she said "do you like Russian girls?"... I said "well, sure"... and she seemed kind of surprised and happy. So maybe some Russians do believe that Westerners may have prejudices against them... just my theory
also, another note:
Russians (and Ukrainians) have arguably (well not arguably, they actually do have)... the best programmers in the world. Russian programmers are very intelligent. In one of my previous software businesses, I had customers in over 50 countries... and the countries that had by far the worst written English among their programmers were in this order:
1) Korea & China (they tie for first - often simply completely incomprehensible emails)
2) Russians
(note: I did not have many Japanese customers... so I am unsure where they would be in the list)
other Slavic countries seemed to have better English among the programmers. And all Europeans had pretty good English for the most part. I even suspected it is hard in Germany to become a manager if you can't speak English... but probably that is not true. I suspect part of the reason the Russian programmers' English was so bad (difficult to understand) is probably the educational system. I noticed that smaller European countries, even in the East, generally had better English skills. So I think perhaps it is because Russia and Ukraine are large countries whereas when your country's population is less than 10 or 20 million, you had probably better learn English in the hopes of making your businesses more international. Another guess, but I think it's a good one...
Ycomp... your post is very interesting. Can I ask you please?.. Here's a thread where I posted a clip with my voice speaking English. Could you please, if you can listen to it, tell me how "evident" my Russian accent is, in this clip? I'm asking because I've been told several times (not only about this particular recording) that my accent is anything but not Russian. So I'm just curious about your opinion. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ycomp
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=19076
well it is definitely not a "Dracula Accent", lol... when I'm listening to that I'm reminded of Audrey Hepburn in War and Peace lol... ok well, the thing it is not natural spoken conversational English... is is a slow dramatic reading. It reminds me of a lot of movies from perhaps the 50s or 60s... like Sophia Loren was also talking somewhat similar back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
But I will identify the parts that do sound like a Russian speaking English, to me:
the woman
whole
that one
was
as a lover * this is perhaps your strongest / most identifiable in the video
whatever was after "he never spoke" and before "save"... sorry I could not quite understand it but it did sound like the way a Russian would say it.
I think in conversational English you would have for the most part a relatively soft accent for a Russian. The reason you can tell if an accent is Russian or Germanic (Dutch, German, etc.) or [insert your favorite language here] is the quirks on certain words or sounds that really give away where they are from. Without those you might just think "oh he/she has an accent" but have no idea from where exactly.
would I have ever guessed from the video it was a Russian speaker? I am not sure... because of what I wrote about it being a "slow reading". It is kind of like when Russian Instructors on the youtube videos I watched would speak the word slowly to pronounce it for you, thinking this made it easier for you. Actually it doesn't. Since the word doesn't sound like that at full speed. A more effective way would be for them simply to repeat the word at full speed 3 or 4 times. Instead of 1 time fast, 1 time very slow. I'm not criticizing your reading, just pointing out that it would sound different than regular conversation.
There is a very prolific fitness video girl (bodyrock) I think it is called on youtube. Everyone keeps commenting on her vids that she is Russian or that they love Russian girls. They probably have this idea from the way she looks (she is blonde and fit) and because she has an accent. Some people write that she is Czech, and the scenery does look like the Czech Republic and she has a Czech name and looks like she could be Czech... but the point is, her accent has some distinct differences from a Russian accent. And it would be hard to confuse the two, for people who have heard many Russians speak in English before. (I come from Toronto, and lived in a neighbourhood with a number of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Latvians - also I believe we have at least 3 to 400,000 Russians and Ukrainians in the city - so they are everywhere)
Thanks for your opinion, ycomp.
Okay, I think in some days, when I find my mp3 player, I'll probably post another, more 'conversational' recording... Don't leave the forum. ;)
I think accents from Slavic langauges sound 10 times better paired with British accents, compared with American accents.
After watching so many Hollywood films where the "bad guys" are Russians (communists or gangsters....), American accent + Russian accent just give a bad feeling...
On the other hand, British + Slavic accent sounds good and is a positive thing because the people from Eastern Europe that turn up in England tend to be smart, ambitious, hardworking, intellectual... They impress people. This accent combination also reminds everyone of various Nobel prize winners, scientists and successful artists and authors. It sounds sophisticated and the speaker can gradually work on reducing his accent.
That's my view.... I would recommend people to focus on the British accent unless you are going to live in North America.
No, not always. But the kind that might consider working abroad usually does. Many of them are Baltic Russians and Poles, for starters... And ethnic Latvians usually know at least some Russian (maybe less nowadays) and although they might have distinct sing-song accent, they would be understood by any Russian. Writtten Russian is a different matter entirely though, - one of my friends is Latvian, she speaks perfect accentless Russian, but "semiliterate scrawls" is the most charitable description of her writing. I mean stuff like "Я ишла к тепе вгости" (Я шла к тебе в гости. ) not pet pevees about missed commas. Although she got much better at it lately. (And of course, she writes Latvian fairly well.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Estonians, well, never had been there, but here's an anecdote, - In one of the companies I worked, we've lost a major contract with an Estonian wholesale operator precisely because very few of their employees knew any language but Estonian or Finnish, so we just couldn't organize tech support...
That's interesting to learn about. I always think about Baltic people as practically language geniuses! Your English is very good! You write like a well-educated native speaker.
When I was a kid I had a piano teacher who came from Lithuania who spoke Polish, Lithuanian, Russian, German and Swedish. She somehow learnt all the first four while growing up! The she learnt Swedish after she moved there, and she spoke it quite well.
I wish we really were. :) I'm definitely not a language genius of any sort, I just got lucky with English, - despite growing up mostly in those hick villages* where no one speaks any recognizable language, all the schools I attended somehow had excellent English teachers who really cared about the language, and whom everybody adored...Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
As a further proof, my attempt to learn German failed miserably, and French... Well, I really-really want to learn it, but quite often I just drop the textbook/stop the audio in sheer disgust ad exasperation and think that French is really an elaborate practical joke made up by some Paris-based linguistic cabal... But I would have the last laugh on them someday. :tease: Besides, a language that some of the world's finest novelists and philosophers spoke can't be simple almost by definition. :)
My mom somehow managed to live for 5 years in the middle of England and still Google Translate speaks better than she does :(
On the other hand, there are people like that piano teacher of yours, or my grandpa (who knew Latvian, Russian and German well enough to translate professionally and read Goethe for fun, plus a few other languages.) Or a lot of my multilingual friends or acquaintances for that matter.
And on the still other hand, if Wikipedia has to be trusted, 60% of the world population is multilingual. So, the way I see it, fluency in more than one language is the norm, not the opposite...
* That said, they're quite nice and tolerant places to live. Or they were, rather, until all those economical crises. Better than the other kind, where everyone was a staunch chauvinist of some stripe, including children playing in sandboxes. Although THAT thankfully was pretty much cured by those same crises. And of course "no one speaks any recognizable language" is an exaggeration, - we understood ourselves just fine :) and if one had to, they could speak largerly intellegible Russian or Latgalian... (Which is to Latvian a bit like very thick Scottish accent is to English... "Dzīve" (life) becomes "dzeive", "pieci" (five) ->"pīci", "ūdens" (water)->"iudens" and "māja" (home) -> "sāta" (a completely diferent word with a cognate in standard Latvian meaning "farmyard" ) And yes, to a Latvian it sounds so amusing that some don't believe it exists until they meet actual speakers. :lol: Note on reading: Macron (ā,ē,ī, ū) is read as it is in Latin, and cedilla (ņ,ķ,ļ,ķ,ģ,ŗ) works basically like Russian "ь" does, š, č =ш, ч. and two vowels together like "ie" or "iu" are read... ok, I can't do it without IPA and textbook. :) But most likely not the way you think they should :)
My Latvian friend told me a joke after I commented that Hungarian, Estonian, Finnish (and Korean and Japanese and I think Mongolian too) are all related.
He said, did I know how Hungary and Estonia were populated?
me: no
He said when they came out of Asia, they came to a crossroads.... and there was a sign. Go left for warm weather and Sunshine... so those that could read went left and became Hungarians. Those that couldn't went right and became Estonians :D
Well I only knew one Estonian ever, and he was damn smart. I also met a girl from Estonia but she was native Russian.
Many home appliances manufactured in Ukraine have a sticker on them that says Made in Europe. The thing is those appliances often break up the second you turn them on. So the manufactures must be ashamed of themselves to admit they make such a crap and hide behind the Made in EU sticker.Quote:
Originally Posted by ycomp
No offence, Ukrainians. Russian crap sometimes is more crappyer than any other crap in the world. :sad:
:lol: why not put a label 'Made on Earth' instead?
Following from the above, can I ask something? Why do people say that everything made in the USSR was bad quality?
I have had 4 things that I can remember that came from there: 1) A pair of skates 2) A sewing machine 3) A swimming costume 4) A watch.
Although they did not have the latest cool and stylish design at the time, all three items looked ok and did not break down at all. The watch was a gift and the rest I bought myself - very cheap.
If this stuff is anything to go by, what was the problem?
I know that such opinions exist but don't really share them. The main reason for them is the fact that Soviet goods lacked the style as you pointed out, and we didn't know that good advertisement can help to sell a total cr@p to innocents :D Soviet goods looked crude and tasteless compared to their western counterparts. There are some things that Russia can't do well even now - light automobiles, for example, or electronics. While Russian Kamazes have just won the Paris-Dakkar rally for yet another time, our Ladas and Volgas are terrible. 60% of the Soviet GDP was spent on defense, therefore to meet the civilian demands many factories were 'dual-purpose enterprises'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
The goods they produced were of 'army style' and of course weren't the masterpieces of design. Still they were intended for heavy duty service for prolonged periods. Apart from Ladas, Volgas and electronics, everything else was of a very good quality.
There's another reason. Soviet people seldom saw imported goods and all imports was of highest quality (China wasn't a world's factory back then and we didn't know that poor quality goods existed in the West too). Of course, compared to the imports we saw, Soviet goods failed the competition.
That’s because all those things where made for export. There was that old Soviet habit of the country falling over itself by giving away what best it had and keeping what little and inferior was left to its people to show the world the benefits of living under socialism. My first car was a Russian Lada that had been used for five years already by the time I bought it in Hungary when the gates to the outer world started to crack a little and our folks got the opportunity of buying things in Eastern Europe not being able to do it at home. So, it was an excellent car that served me well and true for quite a time till it was stolen and ruined in the process. But the secret of its longevity was that initially it was manufactured for export. I bought the same make of the car later on but the one made purely for domestic consumption. There was no end of my frustration with that car for all the three years I had been in possession of it. As for nowadays, I don’t see, if ever, anything good made in Russia either, just the Chinese junk as far as the eye can reach.
About the Made in China, how are things in the West BTW?
Большинство товаров из Китая. А если не из Китая, то втридорога.
Does that mean three times better?
@alexB, yes, maybe the car did serve for a long time, but what about these niceties that make a car comfortable for a driver and passengers? What about such options as automatic transmission or air conditioning? What about warming of the seats in winter? I don't even mention ABS, steering hydraulics, etc. All of this was available back in 1980s in the West.
I can agree that UAZ-469 is probably the best SUV in the world regarding off-road capabilities, but it's pure hell to have a car like that in the city.
If you get used for Spartan conditions you'd probably be content with it, but what really pisses me off is that our @!#$ government supports VAZ and GAZ by maintaining those damn high import duties for cars what makes them more expensive by 30-40%. If only them at VAZ started making good cars, but no, they continue to produce that cr@p they call automobiles and put all government subsidies into their pockets. It drives me mad. Russian automobile industry is a good illustration to what they call 'Epic Fail'.
There’s no denying western cars were superior in many or rather every way and if there ever was something good made in USSR it was more of the exception than the rule. It’s a shame though that now when western merchandise came into our lives they have a tendency of deteriorating year after year. It was not uncommon not long ago that you could by a ten year old car and make another 150000km to the 100000km that were already there, without so much as doing nothing to the car apart from the usual maintenance, like changing motor oil, filters, brake pads and occasionall fuel adding to a gas tank. Can you or any of your friends say that about today’s super-duper gadget packed automobiles? Could they run problem free at least a hundred thousand kilometers? I doubt that very much. The junk is winning over. Or maybe it’s winning in Russia only? Why bother making good stuff for undemanding consumer when it’s a fat chance he’s gonna sue you should your product turns out to be defective. :evil: :crazy: :sad:
I bought my Audi A3 in 2002 when it had 75000 km on its odometer and I've added another 120000 km myself. I only changed motor oil, brake pads and filters. It's the best car I've ever had (with the possible exception of VW Passat B3 of 1989 - when I have finally sold it it had 420000 km on the odometer).Quote:
Originally Posted by alexB