Thread: my attempt of speaking in English

You just need to stick with it now... Your written English is already very good, so it's time you start tackling spoken English (since you "admitted" earlier that you have neglected it... ) When I get better at Russian, perhaps we could chat on Skype..

Anyway, one way to practice is to select an interesting text and then listen to it being read by a native speaker. Then you just read it back in the exact same way, or as close as you can...

The other thing for you to decide is whether you want to speak with a British or American accent. They are quite different as you know, so it's an important decision. You should settle for one or the other. Within British English there are lots of different accents. One good way of learning about the UK and getting a good British accent is to listen to BBC Radio 4 which is available on the BBC website.

Here is an example of a conversation (interview) between an English and an American woman. Both are clearly very well educated and this (plus their backgrounds) affects their accents. They are talking about the book "Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire" which is based on a real story and was recently turned into a film with Keira Knightley. I haven't seen this film but I have heard it's one of the best British films of lately.

[video:3gwd1sdr]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woQ12Z7Jv_Q[/video:3gwd1sdr]

[video:3gwd1sdr]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x9Zzfy5rQY[/video:3gwd1sdr]

Originally Posted by Johanna

The other thing for you to decide is whether you want to speak with a British or American accent. They are quite different as you know, so it's an important decision.

Well, of course, I definitely want to speak with a British accent. I thought it was clear from my clip.
To be honest, I just can't stand the American pronunciation (sorry, Americans ). But I can parody it, and people say I do it well.

Originally Posted by Оля

Well, of course, I definitely want to speak with a British accent. I thought it was clear from my clip.
To be honest, I just can't stand the American pronunciation (sorry, Americans ). But I can parody it, and people say I do it well.

Правильный выбор, хотя, боюсь, ты англичанам всё равно не угодишь своим произношением. А американцы к любому акценту относятся дружелюбно и даже с симпатией.

GOOD CHOICE! (Yes, I kind of guessed that, but you never know... )
That's what I learnt to speak, and what's more, for various reasons I learnt the "recieved pronounciation" English. The trouble now is that many people think that I am an extremely posh English person when I speak. I was pretty shocked when I realised that, and I actually tried to get some of my accent back, since I am not in fact English, or even very posh!

The English have terrible hangups about accents. Posh people look down on working class people (who speak differently). And the working class people consider the middle and upper class people to be arrogant snobs... This is beginning to change a little bit, but it's still a very real issue. As soon as somebody opens their mouth other British people can immediately tell what the speaker's social background is...

(I guess that you don't have this problem (anymore) in Russia, thanks to Lenin, lol !! Or? Is there any form of "accent snobbery" in Russian?)

Foreigners are excluded from this British accent snobbery and prejudice. So it's actually good to have a faint accent. That Russian woman I mentioned earlier for example -- British people would love her accent and assume she was very sophisticated and intelligent (which she probably is...)

Originally Posted by Johanna

The English have terrible hangups about accents. Posh people look down on working class people (who speak differently). And the working class people consider the middle and upper class people to be arrogant snobs... This is beginning to change a little bit, but it's still a very real issue. As soon as somebody opens their mouth other British people can immediately tell what the speaker's social background is...

"An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him.
The moment he talks he makes some other Englishman despise him"
"My Fair Lady", 1964 .

@translationsmru: Awesome that you can quote Shaw like that! It's kind of true though although they are beginning to realise that the situation as it is is wrong and actually bad for the country. Princes William and Harry for instance are trying not to speak "Queens English" (to everyones amusement). But the importance of accent is one of the main reasons parents pay for private schools - to make sure the kids get the right accent.

I would recommend people who are interested in having a British accent to watch British films and listen to British audio books or BBC Radio 4.

I am sure some British person reading this is thinking "Oh that will make them sound like snobs... " (or something like that). But before you write a response to complain about this, consider the alternatives! It's better for the ESL learner to sound sophisticated than like a yob, right? But by all means, if anybody wants a British working class accent - just emulate the accent in the soap operas "East Enders" or "Coronation Street".

There are two UK specific torrent trackers which has only British media, but lots and lots of it. The sites are http://www.thebox.bz (everything that is, erm.... not really paid for...) and http://www.uknova.com/wsgi/torrent (TV programs and radio recordings, completely legal)

[video:27yyi2xe]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_-tplx5Fu0[/video:27yyi2xe]
[video:27yyi2xe]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASGlNykQ_AU[/video:27yyi2xe]

Originally Posted by Lampada

боюсь, ты англичанам всё равно не угодишь своим произношением.

А я к ним вряд ли когда-нибудь попаду.

Originally Posted by Johanna

(I guess that you don't have this problem (anymore) in Russia, thanks to Lenin, lol !! Or?

You're right, we haven't.
Well, some times some people can sound uneducated... Or just drunk.
But we don't have any classes, or any other evident social differences.

Originally Posted by Johanna

[i]@translationsmru: Awesome that you can quote Shaw like that!

I wasn't actually quoting Shaw. Those lines were written by whoever wrote the book for the Broadway musical on which the 1964 film (the one with Audrey Hepburn) was based .

With the Russian language, you are posh if you know what is the gender of the word "кофе", where is the stress in the word "звонит" and you know the difference between "одевать" и "надевать".

Just a word about accents and pronunciation in general.

There are two different things one could strive for in this area. First is general competence in the sense of being able to speak without being misunderstood. There are a variety of issues at this level, including things like being able to correctly distinguish the vowel sounds in "sheep" and "ship" or "sat" and "set". Difficulties in this area of speaking can lead to misunderstandings. Rhythm, stress, and intonation are also parts of speaking which can lead to misunderstandings (e.g. the intonation of questions is very different in Russian vs English).

The second level one might want to strive for is to speak just like a native, i.e. no noticeable accent. There are a variety of reasons someone might wish to pursue this, but for most learners it really is not and should not be important. Having an accent just tells people you are not a native speaker, which is true. If you can speak without grammatical errors and without badly mispronouncing words, those who are listening to you will not generally be bothered by an accent.

If you would like additional feedback on your particular speech, it might be good to provide a more spontaneous speech sample, like a short interview or reading aloud (without practicing) an entry from an English journal you write in.

Originally Posted by E-learner

With the Russian language, you are posh if you know what is the gender of the word "кофе", where is the stress in the word "звонит" and you know the difference between "одевать" и "надевать".

I'm two thirds posh in Russian, apparently, but what is the exact difference between"одевать" and "надевать", if I may ask? Might as well go all the way.

I have been told, by the way, that you're posh if you know the actual first person singular present tense form of пылесосить.
Robin

Originally Posted by bitpicker

I'm two thirds posh in Russian, apparently, but what is the exact difference between"одевать" and "надевать", if I may ask?

одевать = to dress someone, to clothe someone (you can't одевать a coat)
надевать = to put something (some clothes) on someone or on oneself (you can't надевать a kid)

I am posh.

Originally Posted by bitpicker

I'm two thirds posh in Russian, apparently, but what is the exact difference between"одевать" and "надевать", if I may ask?

There is a difference in using. "Одеть" means "to dress," "to clothe," and many natives use this verb instead of "to put on," which is grammatically wrong. You cannot "одеть джинсы," if you don't mean that you dress the jeans, of course.
Oh, I don't seem to be good at explaining such things. )) There is a mnemonic rule - Надеть одежду, одеть Надежду. And a humorous verse. (:

Я забрался с Надей в душ.
Тут явился Надин муж.
То ли мне одеть Надежду,
То ли мне надеть одежду?

Originally Posted by E-learner

With the Russian language, you are posh if you know what is the gender of the word "кофе", where is the stress in the word "звонит" and you know the difference between "одевать" и "надевать".

Hah! I'm posh too!!

Isn't the rule that words which end in O or E is neuter?

"кофе"

Hm... tricky!!!

[quote:2xfi2cvd] Johanna wroteI guess that you don't have this problem (anymore) in Russia, thanks to Lenin, lol !! Or?

You're right, we haven't.
Well, some times some people can sound uneducated... Or just drunk.
But we don't have any classes, or any other evident social differences.
[/quote:2xfi2cvd]

Good for you! I did not know the meaning of real snobbery until I came to England, it's really pretty disgusting the way some people genuinely believe that they are better than others. Although it doesn't help that there are some very uncultured people in England and they don't exactly help themselves.


It was really interesting to hear that Russia which is so big (+ ex USSR) don't have much dialect differences either. In most of Europe you can hear a difference in how people speak after only a couple of hours on a train.. I'd really like to find out more about the situation with this in Russia...

North England "chav" accent.... a parody, but LOTS of ppl speak exactly like this...
(Chav is somebody who is working class and wears expensive sneakers and certain brand clothes... )
[video:2xfi2cvd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNACBKwi-As[/video:2xfi2cvd]

The Queen's Christmas address to the Commonwealth 2008
[video:2xfi2cvd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjzT23Q8NfY[/video:2xfi2cvd]

Queen's Christmas address in 1957!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBRP-o6Q85s
[video:2xfi2cvd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBRP-o6Q85s[/video:2xfi2cvd]

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by bitpicker

I'm two thirds posh in Russian, apparently, but what is the exact difference between"одевать" and "надевать", if I may ask?

одевать = to dress someone, to clothe someone (you can't одевать a coat)
надевать = to put something (some clothes) on someone or on oneself (you can't надевать a kid)

Thanks, Оля, what a simple and lucid explanation. I wonder why the dictionaries just say 'to dress' for both.

Robin

Originally Posted by bitpicker

I wonder why the dictionaries just say 'to dress' for both.

That's interesting. Could you say in which dictionaries "надевать" is translated as "to dress"?

Well, most of my dictionaries are German, so the actual translation is a German word; in the case of PONS, 'anziehen' in both cases, which could mean to dress oneself as well as dress someone else.The Oxford Russian dictionary sends you to одеть from одевать, which says 'to dress (in), to clothe (in)' - no indication whether it refers to oneself or someone else or both. Then надеть says 'to put on clothes', which is slightly more clearly geared towards oneself. The (small) Langenscheidt I have has a combined entry одевать(ся) - (sich) anziehen, which at least has the reflexive part in brackets in both languages. But надевать is still just 'to dress'.

The English dictionary at multilex@mail.ru also differentiates in that it gives 'to dress' and 'to put on' respectively, whereas the German dictionaries again fail to disambiguate, although that would be easy.

Robin

Thank you for the answer.

The (small) Langenscheidt I have has a combined entry одевать(ся) - (sich) anziehen, which at least has the reflexive part in brackets in both languages. But надевать is still just 'to dress'.

Do you mean "is still just 'anziehen'"? It's a Russian-German dictionary, isn't it?

Originally Posted by bitpicker

I have been told, by the way, that you're posh if you know the actual first person singular present tense form of пылесосить.

I have no idea which form is "correct". I find this verb awkward to start with and I would prefer to avoid using it at all. However, being confronted with the necessity of using it, I would use "пылесошу". Or, if I wanted to make a joke out of it - "пылесосю". I find that the latter sounds amusing.

Sometimes people amuse themselves by deliberately using incorrect forms that, however, have some logic behind them. For example:
[s:2lyezqv4]бежу[/s:2lyezqv4] (after бежать) - бегу
[s:2lyezqv4]бегиш[/s:2lyezqv4] (after бегу, бегать) - бежишь
[s:2lyezqv4]сидю[/s:2lyezqv4] (after сидеть) - сижу
[s:2lyezqv4]летю[/s:2lyezqv4] (after лететь) - лечу

Originally Posted by Zaya

Thank you for the answer.

The (small) Langenscheidt I have has a combined entry одевать(ся) - (sich) anziehen, which at least has the reflexive part in brackets in both languages. But надевать is still just 'to dress'.

Do you mean "is still just 'anziehen'"? It's a Russian-German dictionary, isn't it?

Yes, exactly.