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Difficulties of translating. English / Russian
songs and not only ones
Everyone of us have done mistakes in translation. Reason of them is conditioned by difference of grammar rules. For example, Russian can be misled in English article, because we have not them in Russian at all. English native speakers are confused by Russian rules for verbs and using of case. :sorry:
But if we look at it more attentively we will notice that our mistakes very often are typically. I guess that these typically errors were found by you or authors of textbooks before. So, please, let change our own experience like that. Maybe you can give us some links for interesting publications or books about this theme. :roll:
To make our efforts of learning language more attractive, we can discuss here translate of modern songs (but not only this). I know it is very creatively process. Probably somebody of us will become to a poet. :yahoo: Anyway we will meet a lot of idioms and reference to national literature, traditional and proverbs. :roll:
There are many English and Russian native speakers here, and we could help one another. So take our textbooks and dictionaries for help. Translate, discuss, listen, learn.
Lets begin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXANpfmiWVw
Most difficult expression was marked by me in green
Moscow never sleeps
Moscow never sleeps.
Moscow never sleeps.
Я люблю тебя, Москва!
Люблю тебя.
Moscow never sleeps.
Я люблю тебя, Москва!
Люблю тебя.
А есть ли любовь?!
Возьми мое сердце,
Коснись меня взглядом,
Почувствуй тепло
И будь со мной рядом.
Не бойся любить
И разбей все преграды,
Ведь я, все быть может,
Люблю тебя тоже.
Я люблю тебя, Москва!
Люблю тебя.
Moscow never sleeps.
А есть ли любовь?!
Возьми мое сердце,
Коснись меня взглядом.
Ведь я, все быть может,
Люблю тебя тоже.
Возьми мое сердце,
Коснись меня взглядом,
Почувствуй тепло
И будь со мной рядом.
Не бойся любить
И разбей все преграды,
Ведь я, все быть может,
Люблю тебя тоже.
А есть ли любовь?!
Возьми мое сердце,
Коснись меня взглядом,
Почувствуй тепло
И будь со мной рядом.
Не бойся любить
И разбей все преграды,
Ведь я, все быть может,
Люблю тебя тоже.
Я люблю тебя Москва!
Люблю тебя.
Moscow never sleeps
Я люблю тебя Москва!
Люблю тебя.
Moscow never sleeps
English translation
Moscow never sleeps
Moscow never sleeps.
Moscow never sleeps.
I love you, Moscow!
I love you.
Moscow never sleeps.
I love you, Moscow!
I love you.
Would the Love exist?!
Take my heart,
Touch on me with your sight,
Feel the warm
And be near me.
Don’t be afraid of be loving
And break the all obstacles,
Everything may be,
Maybe I love you too.
I love you, Moscow!
I love you.
Moscow never sleeps.
Does the Love exist?
Take my heart,
Touch on me with your sight,
Everything may be,
Maybe I love you too.
Take my heart,
Touch on me with your sight,
Feel the warm
And be near me.
Don’t be afraid of be loving
And break the all obstacles,
Everything may be,
Maybe I love you too.
Would the Love exist?!
Take my heart,
Touch on me with your sight,
Feel the warm
And be near me.
Don’t be afraid of be loving
And break the all obstacles,
Everything may be,
Maybe I love you too.
I love you, Moscow!
I love you.
Moscow never sleeps.
I love you, Moscow!
I love you.
I love you, Moscow!
__________________________________________________ ____________________
and in addition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PuJgxTuTxE
Между мной и тобой
Сколько нам с тобой теперь осталось?
Лишь малость.
И живет со мной святая жалость – моя усталость.
Между мной и тобой остается ветер.
Между мной и тобой только слово: «Где ты?».
Нет моей вины, что тобой болею,
Седею.
Ты придешь ко мне, я тебя согрею,
Жалею.
Между мной и тобой остается ветер.
Между мной и тобой только слово: «Где ты?».
Между мной и тобой остается ветер.
Между мной и тобой только слово: «Где ты?».
Но снедает нас моя дорога – тревога.
Расстояние в жизнь – это так много,
Долго.
Между мной и тобой остается ветер.
Между мной и тобой только слово: «Где ты?».
«Где ты», – я спрошу,
Может, кто ответит.
Между мной и тобой остается ветер.
Ветер.
Где ты?
Может , кто ответит.
Где ты?
in English
Between me and you
How much time are we having for the future?/How much time will we have spent together?
Only a little.
And the saint pity as my tiredness are living inside me.
The wind is staying between me and you.
There is the word, “Where are you?”
It’s not my fair, that I am ached by you,
that I turned gray.
You will come to me, I will give you the warm heart.
I regret.
The wind is staying between me and you.
There is the word, “Where are you?”
The wind is staying between me and you.
There is the word, “Where are you?”
But my life choice is an anxiety is exhausted us.
The distant like a whole life, it is so much,
So long.
The wind is staying between me and you.
There is the word, “Where are you?”
“Where are you?”- I will ask.
Maybe somebody will reply to…
The wind is staying between me and you.
Wind.
Where are you?
Maybe somebody will reply to….
Where are you?
__________________________________________
Some translations were done already
http://masterrussian.net/mforum/view...p?f=57&t=18959
http://masterrussian.net/mforum/view...hp?f=2&t=16684
http://masterrussian.net/mforum/view...hp?f=2&t=16668
http://masterrussian.net/mforum/view...hp?f=2&t=16328
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
"Feel the worm" is my favorite! :tease:
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
I want to play, too! ;)
OK, I've been learning Russian for eight months only and English isn't my native language either, but here goes. I mentioned this song in Rockzmom's thread and linked to the video on Youtube.
Слот - Мёртвые звёзды
Я сам себе придумал путь,
Расставил маяки
Иду по узкой пустыне
Один в толпе людской
И всё пытаюсь обмануть
Течение быстрой реки
Пока мой след не простынет,
Не ходи за мной
Ты идёшь по воде
Зная как, зная где
А я следом по дну
Я тону
[Послушай]
Остановись, пока не поздно
Я падаю вниз за тобой
Туда, где светят твои мёртвые звёзды,
Ослепляя солнце пустотой
Я распугал давно друзей,
Но мой спокоен взгляд
Свободный волк-одиночка
К законам спиной
Мне надо сдать себя в музей
И жить там как экспонат
Всё, я сказал и точка -
Не ходи за мной
Сделать наоборот,
Подобрать к тебе код,
Отключить от сети
Не уйти
Dead Stars
I devised a path for myself
Lined it with beacons
Walking through a narrow desert
Alone in a pulk of people
And everything tries to change the course
Of the quick river
While my tracks do not grow cold
Do not follow me
You are walking on water
Knowing how, knowing where
And I am sinking immediately
To the ground
Listen!
Stop before it is too late
I am sinking down behind you
To where your dead stars shine
Eclipsing the sun with their void
I chased away my friends long ago
But placid is my gaze
A free lone wolf
with his back towards the law
I should put myself in a museum
And live there as an exhibit
That's all, I say, no more -
Don't follow me
Undo it
Break your code
Unhook you from the net
No leaving
Of course, there might be errors in there, so feel free to post corrections. BTW, in case you're wondering, the lyrics are from the album version, the video version only has a repetition of 'за тобой' (behind you) in place of the two stanzas beginning with 'you are walking on water' and 'undo it' respectively.
Robin
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
"Feel the worm" is my favorite! :tease:
and mine too :tease: :yahoo: :)
Even like this way we can learn new foreign words. It is very useful word in technical translations.
Змеевик. Может быть частью охлаждающей системы. :roll:
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
Слот - Мёртвые звёзды
Dead Stars
I devised a path for myself
Lined it with beacons
Walking through a narrow desert
Alone in a pulk of people
And everything tries to change the course
Of the quick river
While my tracks do not grow cold
(I think the word “everything” must not be in your translation. In Russian this sentence means that
He tries to go against the stream. He is doing it now and did it before now but the stream is stronger and faster. He can not change anything in this circumstances.
It may be like this
I still try to change
The stream of quick river
While my tracks do not grow cold
or
I has been trying to change
The stream of quick river
While my tracks do not grow cold.)
Do not follow me
You are walking on water
Knowing how, knowing where
And I am sinking immediately
To the ground
Listen!
Stop before it is too late
I am sinking down behind you
To where your dead stars shine
Eclipsing the sun with their void
I chased away my friends long ago
But placid is my gaze
I am like a free lone wolf
with his back towards the law
I should put myself in a museum
And live there as an exhibit
That's all, I say, no more -
Don't follow me
Undo it
Break your code
Unhook you from the net
No leaving
Robin
Молодец! Мне понравился твой перевод. / attaboy! I liked your translation. :roll:
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Thanks for the correction!
Robin
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
"Feel the worm"
Нельзя же так пугать, я уже было подумала, что там про глистов. :mrgreen:
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
This song stuns everybody who listens to it. It is the excellent, funny joke. After it I always want to ask somebody: “Well, who wants to be repainted?” :D :"":
It was found by ski-ops from this forum. more is here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18854&start=90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glvMMfmIQIA
Брюнетка
Группа Kamon
Раньше я была
Натуральная блондинка –
Розовое платьице,
Домик и машинка.
Розовые туфельки,
Сумочка, собачка
Но захотелось перемен –
Купила краски пачку!
Хей, детка, я теперь брюнетка!
Бежать бессмысленно,
Я стреляю метко!
Хей, детка, я теперь – брюнетка!
Спасения нет –
Ты застрял в моей сетке!
Раньше я была натуральной русой –
Косу заплетала, одевалась безвкусно.
Знала где у мужа прячется заначка,
Но захотелось перемен –
Купила краски пачку.
Хей, детка, я теперь брюнетка!
Бежать бессмысленно,
Я стреляю метко!
Хей, детка, я теперь – брюнетка!
Спасения нет –
Ты застрял в моей сетке!
Я стреляю метко!
Ты застрял в моей сетке!
Раньше я была натуральная рыжая.
Дерзкой, красивой, смелой и бесстыжей.
Укрощала тигра, мужика и тачки,
Но захотелось перемен –
Купила краски пачку.
Хей, детка, я теперь брюнетка!
Бежать бессмысленно,
Я стреляю метко!
Хей, детка, я теперь – брюнетка!
Спасения нет –
Ты застрял в моей сетке!
Хей, детка, я теперь брюнетка!
Бежать бессмысленно,
Я стреляю метко!
Хей, детка, я теперь – брюнетка!
Спасения нет –
Ты застрял в моей сетке!
Раньше я была…
Хей! Детка! Я теперь – брю…, брю…, брю…
Хей! Детка! Я теперь брюнетка!
Хей! Я теперь – брю…, брю…, брю…
Хей!!!
Brunette
by “Kamon”
Earlier I was naturally blonde.
And I had all usual attributes of blonde.
I had a pink small clothes,
A pink small house and a pink small car.
Also I had nice pink shoes,
A small handbag, a sweet small dog.
But one day I wanted the changes,
I bought a bundle of hair dye!
Hey, baby! I am the brunette now!
Don’t try to run away! It’s senselessly.
My shots are excellent-aimed!
Hey, baby! I am the brunette now!
You won’t be saved.
You stuck in my nets.
Earlier I was naturally light brown.
I was making my hair into the plait, getting dressed without any charm.
I knew where my husband hides the money.
But one day I wanted the changes,
I bought a bundle of hair dye!
Hey, baby! I am the brunette now!
Don’t try to run away! It’s senselessly.
My shots are excellent-aimed!
Hey, baby! I am the brunette now!
You won’t be saved.
You stuck in my nets.
My shots are excellent-aimed!
You stuck in my nets.
Earlier I was naturally chestnut,
Impudent, beautiful, bold and shameless.
I was taming a tiger, a man and cool cars.
But one day I wanted the changes,
I bought the bundle of hair dye!
Hey, baby! I am the brunette now!
Don’t try to run away! It’s senselessly.
My shots are excellent-aimed!
Hey, baby! I am the brunette now!
You won’t be saved.
You stuck in my nets.
Hey, baby! I am the brunette now!
Don’t try to run away! It’s senselessly.
My shots are excellent-aimed!
Hey, baby! I am the brunette now!
You won’t be saved.
You stuck in my nets.
Earlier I was…
Hey, baby! I am the bru… bru… bru…
Hey, baby! I am the brunette now!
Hey, baby! I am the bru… bru… bru…
Hey!
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
That's funny! It's a little bit like the old Danish song Barbie Girl -- also a parody..
[video:12iolryt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y24EKmzgYGU[/video:12iolryt]
Ekaterinak --- I've got to help you with your English in this post; it had some errors! (Don't worry, wait until I start writing in Russian!!! )
Quote:
This song is stunned everybody who was listening its. --> This song stuns everybody who listens to it.
It is the excellent fanny joke. --> It is an excellent, funny joke. =@ (Warning: "Fanny" is an old nickname for "Frances", but it also means..... private part of women! So the nickname is not used anymore :lol:
Well, who wants to be redyed?” --> Well, who wants to be a redhead?
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
Well, who wants to be redyed?” --> Well, who wants to be a redhead?
Probably, I took the unsuitable word. I wanted to use the passive form of verb “repaint”. It is like “change color of hair”. Maybe it is in other words is “Well, Who wants to be changed color of your hair?”
In Russian it is: Ну, кого перекрасить?!
Эх, нелегкое это дело – учить иностранный язык, но я буду стараться! / Oh, learning of foreign language is not easy thing, but I will try!
Thanks, Johanna for your corrections. :roll:
:angel: :)
Your phrase "Well, who wants to be a redhead?" in Russian is “Ну, кто хочет быть рыжим?!” has two meanings.
The first one is a simple question is like “Do you want to have red hair?”
The second one has a hidden meaning. Sometimes we use this word “рыжий” (“a person who has red hair”) in meaning of “a person who is guilty of everything, a person of little importance who is blamed for the errors, incompetence, etc., of others, esp his superiors; scapegoat”.
In context of “Brunette” song and my ironic question your variant is almost the goal.
__________________________________________________ _____
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
:cry: I cannot see this video. Russian Internet has some limitation of admission to some video. But I think, I know what it is. It is "Barbie Girl" by Aqua, isn't it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxn567bHny8 ???
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Probably, I took the unsuitable word. I wanted to use the passive form of verb “repaint”. It is like “change color of hair”. Maybe it is in other words is “Well, Who wants to be changed color of your hair?”
That would be 'who wants the color of their hair to be changed?' or simply, without any passive, 'who wants to change their hair color?'.
As for the first sentence, it should be 'I chose an incorrect word'. Regarding articles, which I suppose are a major problem for native speakers of Russian: you use a definite article (the) when you refer to something specific. For instance: 'maybe the word I chose was incorrect'. This sentence refers to the specific word you chose. In the sentence I suggested I used an indefinite article (a, an) because there isn't just a single incorrect word you could have chosen but any number. 'I chose the incorrect word' technically means that there is just a single incorrect word you could have chosen, and you did.
I hope I am making this clear - if you don't understand, please say so and I'll try harder. ;)
Robin
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
As for the first sentence, it should be 'I chose an incorrect word'. Regarding articles, which I suppose are a major problem for native speakers of Russian: you use a definite article (the) when you refer to something specific. For instance: 'maybe the word I chose was incorrect'. This sentence refers to the specific word you chose. In the sentence I suggested I used an indefinite article (a, an) because there isn't just a single incorrect word you could have chosen but any number. 'I chose the incorrect word' technically means that there is just a single incorrect word you could have chosen, and you did.
I hope I am making this clear - if you don't understand, please say so and I'll try harder. ;)
Robin
Your explanation was very clear. Thank you very much.
We have widespread joke in Russia. It is about of “Russian articles”. :wink: It is words which are littering our speech. They are “типа” and “вроде”. In English it is “like”, “similar”. Very often you can hear them from young people. If somebody to use them more then need we can ask him/her “Where are you from?” from England or USA? Is “типа” your English article “the”?” :D
So every time I ask myself “What must I use, “the” or “a (an)” or nothing? It is very difficult. Especially it is difficult to choose between “use articles” and “nothing”. :o :search: I know that I can say: “I like sea (sugar, sunlight…..)” (at all) and also I can use: “I like the Sea” (if I am telling about Red Sea to a person who knows or guesses what kind of sea I mean). But this question is not always so easy. :roll:
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Actually articles are quite simple, but that's easy for me to say as both my native German and English have them and use them in a similar fashion. Well, if you had to learn German you'd not only have to know when to use an article but also inflict declension on them, so English is the easy way out. ;)
Well, and now that I really start to think about it, it's not quite so easy anymore. I can tell you that it really should be 'I like the sea' in the same way as it should be 'I like the sky'. And you don't use an article with uncountable things of which there still are quantities: milk, sugar, bread are examples. You only use a definite article with them, if you further define them with additional constituents of a sentence: I like milk, but I especially like the milk from the farm over there. However, adjectives etc. are no constituents of their own: I like curdled milk. But if given a choice of normal milk or curdled milk you could then say 'I like the curdled milk' - it's not curdled milk as such in this case, but it is a specific sample of milk set before you.
And it gets worse of course when you consider when to use definite and indefinite articles. It is getting quite off-topic for this thread, so I'll stop here. However, it is refreshing to see what (to us) simple things are hard for native speakers of Russian, so we don't have to feel so stupid when we have a hard time with the peculiarities of Russian. ;)
Robin
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
:off: I know...sorry...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
However, it is refreshing to see what (to us) simple things are hard for native speakers of Russian.
Robin
Robin, I am soooooo happy that you can explain all of that to ekaterinak! As an ignorant native, I just know naturally which words to say when (well most of the time). I don't remember or never learned most of the rules. It is all of the non-natives who learn all the rules and remember them! It is the same for our government test for immigration! If you had to ask a native the same questions that an immigrant needs to know to become a citizen, all of us natural born citizens would be deported! :ROFL:
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
It is the same for our government test for immigration! If you had to ask a native the same questions that an immigrant needs to know to become a citizen, all of us natural born citizens would be deported!
Rest assured it is just the same here in Germany...
Actually I spend much time on a forum at delphiforums which is about learning German, and I work there as a tutor. There are so many things I need to teach people which I never thought twice about before, and which weren't even mentioned at any time during my university studies of German and English... I have to come up with rules constantly, rules you never find in any learner's grammar...
Robin
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
I know it is :off:
But very want to speak about
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
Well, and now that I really start to think about it, it's not quite so easy anymore......
My mind has been becoming lighter after your explanation.
Actually, I started to understand English grammar from the books where every explaining was catching a likeness with Russian. Also I have liked the text-book for English studying by Cambridge University Press. There are all explaining in English, without any Russian words at all. But explaining build on everyday situations. I suppose, these ways of learning are the best.
In Russian we have short expression «Объяснить на пальцах». It means to be able to explain hard things with using of easy (down-to-earth language) words. I think, an ability like that is the hi level of mastery. It seems to me, I met here persons like one. :roll: :wink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
However, it is refreshing to see what (to us) simple things are hard for native speakers of Russian, so we don't have to feel so stupid when we have a hard time with the peculiarities of Russian. ;)
Well, I constantly remember one thing, everybody has aptitude for foreign languages. Otherwise, Why can we speak in our own languages? :roll: :pardon:
just we (Russian and English, German and English, Russian and German and so on) think in different ways.
Ищущий – да найдет! :roll:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
If you had to ask a native the same questions that an immigrant needs to know to become a citizen, all of us natural born citizens would be deported! :ROFL:
It is strange, but after my studying of English I started to understand better my own languages. I think, my knowledge of Russian is more deeper now. :good: :roll:
____________________________________________
English native speakers, people who studying Russian, and persons who knows English, please help us with translations of song, for example “Brunette” song. There are many of using of articles (“the”, “a(an)”). And the text is simple. Look at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18854 . There are many Russian songs there. May be somebody wants to translate some. Ask about it. English songs for translation into Russian are interesting too!
For example a piece from “Clock” by Coldplay:
Come out of things unsaid
Shoot an apple off my head and a
Trouble that can't be named
A tiger's waiting to be tamed, singing
What does “an apple of….” mean? I don’t think that it is about an apple as a fruit! Please, help!
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
What does “an apple of….” mean? I don’t think that it is about an apple as a fruit! Please, help!
Actually I suppose it is about an apple. Do you know Wilhelm Tell? His legend has it that he was a fighter for freedom in Switzerland's history. I don't recall all the details, but there's a story about him being forced to shoot an apple from the head of his son with his crossbow, which he managed to do. I suppose this is in reference to that story.
Robin
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
Quote:
What does “an apple of….” mean? I don’t think that it is about an apple as a fruit! Please, help!
Actually I suppose it is about an apple. Do you know Wilhelm Tell? His legend has it that he was a fighter for freedom in Switzerland's history. I don't recall all the details, but there's a story about him being forced to shoot an apple from the head of his son with his crossbow, which he managed to do. I suppose this is in reference to that story.
Robin
Probably it is, like you told. But in this case it is "Do something very dangerous for a person which is very dear to you" Hm... very interesting!
I did not this meaning before, and I translated it like this
Я выпущу то, что не сказано
Все то, что двусмысленно и не может быть названо:
Надежды, проблемы, дела,
И хищника перед броском сдержит песня моя – Ты.
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Well, I really don't know enough Russian to comment on a translation into Russian... ;)
Robin
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
I know it is :off:
But I very much want to speak about this
My laugh for the morning... (not your errors, the fact that you want to stay off topic and it is your thread!) thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Well, I constantly remember one thing, everybody has aptitude for foreign languages. Otherwise, Why can we speak in our own languages? :roll: :pardon:
Well..... we speak our own language because we grow up learning it. If my parents and done as I have done with my children and thrown me into an immersion language school at the age of 5, then yes.. I would be able to speak 2 languages. However.. I have tried at different times in my life to learn three different languages and I have failed miserably at each.
With Spanish, I have tried multiple times and failed multiple times :cry: I honestly don't think I have the aptitude for language. I have it for many other things, just not that. :cry:
Maybe, Maybe... I could do as many of you and learn to read and write a language and just not speak or listen...as that would be more like a programming language and I have in the past learned computer languages. But still, that would be a long stretch and wishful thinking.
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Well, the aptitude children have for obtaining their native language dries up before puberty, normally. Some people are lucky enough to retain it, you send them into a foreign country for six weeks and they return talking like a native. At university, I had a professor with that talent. He spoke the usual languages plus Arabic, Gaelic... But that didn't make him any less boring as a teacher.
I recently read that kreol languages, which develop from pidgin languages after one generation*, tend to develop a system of perfective vs. imperfective verbs just like Russian has, even if the languages which were parents to the pidgin don't have that feature. That means such a feature seems to be part of the innate grammar we are all born with. Well, the way I am having a hard time with Russian perfective verbs shows me I have not retained that talent from childhood. ;)
* Does that need some explaining? Don't want to wast more off-topic space if everyone knows what that means.
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
kreol languages
hehehe, the only place I have heard Creole (as us American's spell it) is in Florida!
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
In that case it's a specific language, but it is also a linguistic term for a type of language. A pidgin language is what people use who have different native languages but are forced to communicate. During the time of slavery and colonization it happened quite a lot in various places of the world. There were the languages of the various slaves or subjugated people, and the language of the 'masters'. Invariably, the pidgin created from such languages is relatively free of grammatical structure. Pidgin is the word for such a language, which borrows words from all the various languages but usually has no discernible grammatical patterns all speakers of this language share.
However, speakers of pidgin have children eventually, and among them grammar spontaneously comes into being. They structurize the pidgin spoken and instinctively give it common features and patterns which form a grammar. The pidgin language becomes a creole language.
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
Rockzmom, Bitpicker, of course, you are right when you are speaking about the conditions of learning. I suppose, if detach a person from the conditions, then a success of learning of languages depends on two ingredients.
The first is your aptitude (your memory, memory, memory and a bit of logical thinking). It is 20% of the success.
The second is your willpower. It is 20%.
Of course, it is not all. The rest are the conditions.
The third is a talented teacher. (this person have to find the best way to your mind. He/She have to choose the right method of teaching for you. This ability is a talent. Not all teachers have one! I know a Russian person who knows English very well, but she cannot explain, and don’t like do the explanation). Instead of or in addition to the teacher are text-books. It is 30% .
The fourth is practice. It is 30%. (The living in foreign country it is the best way of practice :-) )
I know that the numerical values are very roughly. Just, when we learn own languages we have the best ways of all these components. But anyway, every of us have memory and a bit of logical thinking. :roll: So every of us have the aptitude. :roll: But the another components nobody can cancel :roll:
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Re: What are their modern songs about? What do they sing about?
I think it is different for every learner. Each needs to find his or her perferred way or learning. I, for instance, don't have much use for a teacher or standard teaching material such as flash cards, exercises etc.
First and foremost I need to have some reason to learn. This does not only apply to languages, but when it comes to language, the reason I really learned English was because it was so incredibly useful, not because I had to learn it in school anyway. The music I liked was in English, the books I liked were written in English originally, the movies I liked were in English, the role-playing games I liked to play were often available only in English... It was pretty obvious to me even back then that knowing this language would be very useful.
I failed to learn Dutch and French as an adult, even though I tried, precisely because I lacked a real reason to learn the languages. Dutch isn't far enough from German to make it impossible to understand, though understanding spoken Dutch is quite hard. You can handle French texts if you had Latin at school, even if you were the worst student in class, which I was - and I have little use for French as a means of transporting culture (French novels, music don't interest me).
Now Russian is a whole other kettle of fish. I'm learning it because it is a challenge, which is a reason all on its own, but also because I'd love to be able to read Ночной дозор and other modern Russian fantastic literature in the original one day. There are quite a number of native speakers of Russian in Germany (3 million or so), and I have Russian-speaking neighbours the sons of whom are the same age and go to the same school as mine. We get invited to their family celebrations, and the language spoken there is Russian, most of the time. So I see a reason to learn the language, and these eight months of doing so I think I have come quite far; farther than if I had just visited a course in any case. I am already reading a novel in Russian, though not a fantastic one, and never without a dictionary nearby.
I probably have some aptitude for languages, after all, I studied English and German at university; but of course it is hard to assess one's own talent, as you never have a chance to understand how easy or hard learning a language is for someone else.
I follow a German podcast on learning Russian, I think this was very important for the basics. I am also in e-mail conversation with a couple of friends, which is at least partly in Russian. All in all, my approach is immersion and learning by doing rather than following exercises or trying to memorize rules or words.
Robin
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Re: Difficulties of translates. English/Russian
I did an exercise to study a using of follow English structure
Verb + preposition + -ing
I met there sentences like that
“The rain did not stop us from enjoying our holiday.”
Word for word translation into Russian is very bulky.
__________________________________________________ ______________
(Attention. When I say ‘word for word translation’ I mean that I take into account tenses, parts of speech (verb, noun, participle, adverbial participle and so on) and their form (case, conjugation and so on). Result of it is not a set of words!!!.)
__________________________________________________ ______________
It is
Дождь не остановил нас от наслаждения нашим отпуском.
The Russians don’t speak like that.
If I wanted to say about it (I’m native Russian speaker) I would use other structure. It is
The rain did not damage of our enjoying from holiday.
Дождь не испортил нам удовольствие от отпуска.
One more example
“Nobody suspected the general of being a spy”
Word for word translation into Russian is
Никто подозревал генерала в бытии шпиона.
To use a “быть шпионом” in genitive case of Russia languages is unmanageable even for me :roll: I think this form don’t exist in Russian at all. :shock: We don’t speak like that in Russian In this situation we use double negation and noun «шпионаж» So it is
Никто не подозревал генерала в шпионаже.
I feel it offers difficulty. :o Especially from English into Russian translations.
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Re: Difficulties of translates. English/Russian
It is no different if you translate English or Russian to German or the other way round. There are many things which you can translate word for word but the result isn't a normal sentence in the other language. The progressive form (English -ing) doesn't even exist in German at all (nor does it in Russian). Neither English nor German have perfective verbs; neither English nor Russian have a subjunctive form quite like German, nor quite the same ability to concatenate words to form new ones.
And that's just three languages with (in the case of Russian, relatively remote) family ties. It gets worse if you look at non-Indo-European languages. For instance, in spoken Japanese the gender of the speaker is very important, the language is permeated with manners of expression and even words which only women or only men use. Imagine the difference of Russian сказал / сказала were present in every facet of Russian speech.
Different languages are so much more than just different words. And it is incredibly hard to attain a level of mastery where you sound like a native speaker of a 2nd language, even if you know all the rules of the language by heart.
Robin
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Re: Difficulties of translates. English/Russian
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
And it is incredibly hard to attain a level of mastery where you sound like a native speaker of a 2nd language, even if you know all the rules of the language by heart.
I agree with Robin about knowing the rules and sounding like a native. There are many different levels of mastery.
One of the reasons I came on this forum was so Dmitri could sound like a native. If you remember the types of questions that I ask on this forum... they are all questions that only native speakers know the answers to! And in many of my postings I try to give hints about how "real" Americans speak and explain why I say things or write things the way I do and how I don't follow the "rules" of proper grammar. I speak in run-on sentences all the time, as do all Americans. If I ever want to send my book to a publisher, I will need an editor BEFORE I send it out! Maybe I should post the entire thing on this forum and have ya' all correct the entire thing as an exercise in proper English grammar! :spiteful:
As for my girls, they actually have what is called "radio Spanish." Their spoken Spanish has little to no American influenced accent to it. Here in the states, many kids speak perfect Spanish; yet, their spoken Spanish has a harsh New York or New Jersey accent to it (or an accent from where ever they happen to live) which is not good at all for commercials, tv or films. So, to a true native, say from Spain, they come across as if they speak it like a native, yet sound like a foreigner. And as a side note, many of the kids can't read or write. They can only speak and understand.
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Re: Difficulties of translates. English/Russian
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
It is no different if you translate English or Russian to German or the other way round. There are many things which you can translate word for word but the result isn't a normal sentence in the other language. The progressive form (English -ing) doesn't even exist in German at all (nor does it in Russian). Neither English nor German have perfective verbs; neither English nor Russian have a subjunctive form quite like German, nor quite the same ability to concatenate words to form new ones.
In Russian the English form verb+ing according to
1.adjectival participles / действительные причастие
A reading girl
Читающая девочка
2. noun formed from a verb / отглагольное существительное (it is like English Gerund)
I like reading.
Я люблю чтение (also you can translate it as ‘Я люблю читать’, but if you make exact grammatical translate, it will be ‘Я люблю чтение’. When I said ‘Word for word translation’ (see my preceding post) I meant situations like this)
3.imperfective verb (like English continuous verb) / глагол несовершенного вида
when she was reading a book ……
Когда она читала книгу ….
I hope this little explanation will be able to help to persons which are learning Russian. :roll:
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Re: Difficulties of translates. English/Russian
Of course you can translate anything, but (the gerund notwithstanding) as you can see Russian needs two entirely different verb forms to express the progressive aspect of the English verb, depending on grammatical context. We can express the idea in German, as well, but we need additional words for it.
Every idea can be expressed in every language that there is. But languages can differ in what they do to achive that. For instance, let's say you were telling mewhat a female physician said to you yesterday. In Russian, the word врач is used, but I do learn the gender of the doctor from the verb, at least in past tense. In German, the noun for the profession 'Ärztin' has a female marker -in and an umlaut (as opposed to male 'Arzt'), telling me you are talking about a female physician. In English, I have to wait until you use a pronoun to refer to the physician (she, her). I have frequently noticed that the gender of a person in an English novel may remain elusive for lines and whole paragraphs until a pronoun at last clears it up. All three languages transport the information 'female' somewhere without actually mentioning the fact, but they do it differently.
Robin
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Re: Difficulties of translating. English/Russian
I remember one episode from “The Da Vinci Code” movie. It was somewhere of the finale. Sophie Neveu has known that she is a descendant of Jesus Christ. She is standing near the water and looking at it with reverie. All dangers which were frightening her before are behind. She is cautiously touching the water with her foot. The surface of the water does not hold her, of course.
Robert Langdon is coming to her and seeing her action. He asks her: ‘What are you trying to do?”.
She replies with a slightly smiling: ‘Oh… I’ve just remembered that HE could to walk on the surface of water as on the ground. I’ve tried to repeat this thing. I could not’
This episode is loved by me. It is so simple and the same time is so thoughtful.
We have one song in Russia which has been popular. This topic sounds from it too. I decided to do the translation of it into English. I have some reason for it.
The music and the lyric are great. The lyric has so few simple Russian words, but has a huge ocean of meaning.
This story (about water and Jesus Christ) are well known and so it will be understood by everybody.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogh3GjpS07k
[video:73ah6309]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogh3GjpS07k[/video:73ah6309]
Прогулки по воде
by Nautilus pompilius (more information here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautilus_Pompilius_(band))
С причала рыбачил апостол Андрей
А Спаситель ходил по воде.
И Андрей доставал из воды пескарей,
A Спаситель - погибших людей.
И Андрей закричал: "Я покину причал,
Если ты мне откроешь секрет".
А Спаситель ответил: "Спокойно, Андрей,
Никакого секрета здесь нет.
Видишь там, на горе, возвышается крест?
Под ним десяток солдат. Повиси-ка на нём.
А когда надоест, возвращайся назад,
Гулять по воде, гулять по воде,
Гулять по воде со мной".
Но, Учитель, на касках блистают рога,
Чёрный ворон кружит над крестом.
Объясни мне сейчас, пожалей дурака,
А распятье оставь на потом.
Онемел Спаситель и топнул в сердцах
По водной глади ногой:
"Ты и верно – дурак!". И Андрей в слезах
побрёл с пескарями домой.
Видишь там, на горе, возвышается крест.
Под ним десяток солдат. Повиси-ка на нём.
А когда надоест, возвращайся назад,
Гулять по воде, гулять по воде,
Гулять по воде со мной
To walk on the water
The apostle Andrew was catching a fish at a mooring,
And the Savior at the same moment was going on the surface of this river.
And Andrew was taking only some gudgeons from the water,
And the Savior was taking lost people.
And Andrew has cried: "I will leave a mooring,
If you don’t open to me the secret ".
And the Savior answered: "Be quiet, Andrew,
There is not any secret at all in this.
He asked Andrew: ‘Are you seeing a rising cross on that hill?
There is something like a dozen of soldiers around it. Just hang on cross.
And when you are bored with it, come back to me,
We will walk on the water, walk on the water.
To walk on the water with me".
He answer: ‘But, Teacher, the horns of the helmets are shining and frightening,
A black raven turns(flies) over the cross.
Explain to me now, regret the fool (me),
And let the crucifixion of mine will be after.’
The Savior has struck dumb with astonishment and stamped his foot in irritation on the surface of the water.
"You are really a fool!". And Andrew burst into tears
And trudged with his gudgeons to home.
He asked Andrew: ‘Are you seeing a rising cross on that hill?
There is something like a dozen of soldiers around it. Just hang on cross.
And when you are bored with it, come back to me,
We will walk on the water, walk on the water.
To walk on the water with me".
I would be appreciate for help with my English.
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Re: Difficulties of translating. English/Russian
It is really difficulties of translations / Вот уж действительно - трудности перевода. :lol: :lol: :lol:
If you are tired from learning of foreign language a little, read this, It will help to encourage you a lot / Если Вы чуть-чуть подустали от изучения иностранного языка, прочтите это. Поможет приободриться.
:ROFL: :ROFL:
Secretary: - Mr. President, Condoleeza Rice is here to see you.
George B. : - Good, send her in.
Secretary: - Yessir.
(Hangs up. Condi enters.)
Condoleeza: - Good morning, Mr. President.
George B. : - Oh Condoleeza, nice to see you. What's happening?
Condoleeza : - Well, Mr. President, I have the report here about the new
leader in China.
George B. : - Great, Condi. Lay it on me.
Condoleeza : - Mr. President, Hu is the new leader of China.
George B. : - Well, that's what I want to know.
Condoleeza : - But that's what I'm telling you, Mr. President.
George B. : - Well, that's what I'm asking you, Condie. Who is the new leader of China?
Condoleeza : - Yes.
George B. : - I mean the fellow's name.
Condoleeza : - Hu.
George B. : - The guy in China.
Condoleeza : - Hu.
George B. : - The new leader of China.
Condoleeza : - Hu.
George B. : - The Chinaman!
Condoleeza : - Hu is leading China, Mr. President.
George B. : - Whaddya' asking me for?
Condoleeza : - I'm telling you Hu is leading China.
George B. : - Well, I'm asking you, Condie. Who is leading China?
Condoleeza : - That's the man's name.
George B. : - That's who's name?
Condoleeza : - Yes.
(Pause.)
George B. : - Will you or will you not tell me the name of the new leader of
China?
Condoleeza : - Yes, sir.
George B. : - Yassir? Yassir Arafat is in China? I thought he was in the
Middle East.
Condoleeza : - That's correct.
George B. : - Then who is in China?
Condoleeza : - Yes, sir.
George B. : - Yassir is in China?
Condoleeza : - No, sir.
George B. : - Then who is?
Condoleeza : - Yes, sir.
George B. : - Yassir?
Condoleeza : - No, sir.
(Pause. Crumples paper)
George B. : - Condi, you're starting to piss me off now, and it's not 'cause
you're black neither. I need to know the name of the new leader of China. So
why don't you get me the Secretary General of the United Nations on the
phone.
Condoleeza : - Kofi Annan?
George B. : - No, thanks. And Condi, call me George. Stop with that ebonics
crap.
Condoleeza : - You want Kofi?
George B. : - No.
Condoleeza : - You don't want Kofi.
George B. : - No. But now that you mention it, I could use a glass of milk.
And then get me the U.N.
Condoleeza : - Yes, sir.
George B. : - Not Yassir! The guy at the United Nations.
Condoleeza : - Kofi?
George B. : - Milk! Will you please make that call?
Condoleeza : - And call who?
George B. : - Well, who is the guy at the U.N?
Condoleeza : - No, Hu is the guy in China.
George B. : - Will you stay out of China?!
Condoleeza : - Yes, sir.
George B. : - And stay out of the Middle East! Just get me the guy at the
U.N.
Condoleeza : - Kofi.
George B. : - All right! With cream and two sugars. Now get on the phone.
(Condi picks up the phone.)
Condoleeza : - Hello. Rice, here.
George B. : - Rice? Good idea. And get a couple of egg rolls, too, Condi.
Maybe we should send some to the guy in China. And the Middle East. Can you
get chinese food in the Middle East? I don't know.
(Door slam. Música.)
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Re: Difficulties of translates. English/Russian
That was very funny - I just read it aloud to my colleague. :lol: :ROFL:
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Re: Difficulties of translating. English/Russian
Ahhh, yes. That is a great take off on the old Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?" Here is a short version of the A&C routine that is done very well in Kenetic Typography.
[video:2wa9d31v]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejweI0EQpX8[/video:2wa9d31v]
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Re: Difficulties of translating. English/Russian
I know that English language does not have ‘double negation’ grammatical construction.
In English you say:
They are not going anywhere
In Russian we say:
Они никуда не едут (not like in English: Они не едут куда-то)
For expression of negation English use 1 negation form of words (where), Russian use negation form of words for 2 words (куда, едут).
I never meet anyone anywhere
Я никогда никого нигде не встречаю (not like in English: Я никогда встречаю любого где-нибудь).
For expression of negation English use only 1 negation word (never), Russian use negation form of words for 4 words (когда, кого, где, встречаю).
________________
So if you see in English sentence words like
Never
Nobody
Nothing
Nowhere
No one
None of
with “any…” (like anything, anybody and so on) or “any + noun” you have to use negation form of Russian words in your translation.
________________
And one more a slightly smiling thing.
Look at this in following dialog :
Петя: Будешь (хочешь) кофе? / Piter: Do you want some coffee?
Катя: Да нет, наверное. / Kate: Yes, I do not, probably.
What did she mean? Did she say ‘Yes’? Maybe she meant ‘No’ or something else ??????
Actually she meant “No”, but she has been hesitating what she has to say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.
‘Да нет, наверное’ is soft form of ‘No’. Of course, her answer in English is ‘No, I do not’.
But maybe she did want to say him the sharp word ‘No’ :roll: :wink:
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Re: Difficulties of translating. English/Russian
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
Ahhh, yes. That is a great take off on the old Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?"
Thank you
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Re: Difficulties of translating. English/Russian
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Of course, her answer in English is ‘No, [s:hopl1tg6]I’m not[/s:hopl1tg6]’.
I don't
Well, perhaps I don't - if you want to express indecision.
Look at the modal verb in the question to 'construct' your answer.
Are you thirsty? - No, I'm not.
Do you want it? - No, I don't.
Have you met him? - No, I haven't.
Would you do that? - No, I wouldn't.
P.S. And... I'd translated the song's title 'Прогулки по воде' as 'Walking on the water'.
Something like this:
Andrew the apostle was fishing at a mooring,
And the Savior was walking on the water.
And Andrew was fishing out minnows,
While the Savior was fishing out dead people.
And Andrew cried out: "I will leave the mooring,
If you [s:hopl1tg6]don’t[/s:hopl1tg6] share this secret with me".
And the Savior answered: "Be quiet, Andrew,
There is no secret at all here.
You see, there on a hill, is a cross?
And a dozen soldiers nearby. Go, hang there a little.
And when you get bored, come back to me
To walk on the water with me.
But Teacher, there are shining horns on the helmets
And a black raven circles above the cross.
Would you tell me now, spare the fool,
And postpone the cricifixion.
The Savior got numb and stamped his foot on the water in frustration
"You are a fool indeed!"
And Andrew in tears plodded home with his minnows.
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Re: Difficulties of translating. English/Russian
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
And one more a slightly smiling thing.
Look at this in following dialog :
Петя: Будешь (хочешь) кофе? / Piter: Do you want some coffee?
Катя: Да нет, наверное. / Kate: Yes, it is not, probably.
What did she mean? Did she say ‘Yes’? Maybe she meant ‘No’ or something else ??????
Actually she meant “No”, but she has been hesitating what she has to say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.
‘Да нет, наверное’ is soft form of ‘No’. Of course, her answer in English is ‘No, I’m not’.
But maybe she did want to say him the sharp word ‘No’ :roll: :wink:
ekaterinak,
If I am following your thought process correctly... than in English the same conversation might go like this:
Peter: Do you want some coffee?
Kate: "Thanks, that's okay." or "Thanks, but I'm good." or "No, not right now."
In the first two, Kate is saying "thank you" which would seem like yes, but she is actually saying no. In the last one, she is saying "no" yet leaving the door open to maybe have some later. BTW, in the second one, the word "but" is often left out when actually speaking.
Let me know if I missed your point here. :D
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Re: Difficulties of translating. English/Russian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Of course, her answer in English is ‘No, ....
I don't
P.S. And... I'd translated the song's title 'Прогулки по воде' as 'Walking on the water'.
Спасибо, Рамиль.
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Re: Difficulties of translating. English/Russian
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Петя: Будешь (хочешь) кофе? / Piter: Do you want some coffee?
Катя: Да нет, наверное. / Kate: Yes, it is not, probably.
What did she mean? Did she say ‘Yes’? Maybe she meant ‘No’ or something else ??????
Actually she meant “No”, but she has been hesitating what she has to say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.
In this case the word «да» does not mean “yes”. It’s like a parenthesis or even an interjection here. Compare with «Да, ну!», «Да брось», «Да я не знаю» etc. In these sentences «да» has no meaning, it’s “a set of sounds”, the way to delay an answer only, but not “yes”. Do not believe Zadornov. :)