Thread: Spelling

I have been interested on this subject for years
Does English language appears to present any rules on spelling. You see, there are rules in Russian spelling (stressed and non-stressed vowels, etc.) but some words are to learn by heart (словарные слова). That seems to me there are no rules in English spelling 'cause I've never heard of one. Am I right?

There are many unwritten "rules" about English spelling. You might say there are no rules about how to find the perfective form of a Russian verb given any imperfective form, but there are some guidelines and groups of verbs that behave in similar ways. Many English-speakers are able to spell a word correctly upon hearing it for the first time. But it's more of an instinct thing, I don't know if it would be possible to write out rules. It's mainly because we've heard a similar-sounding or related word before and spell it correctly based off of the other word.

Could you give me some examples of hard-to-spell words?

I understand. It's like when you hear the sound you figure out how to spell it as there is the only way to (like condiTION, excepTION, etc.)
It's quite the same as when I first look upon the word and then guess how to pronounce it. Unfortunately that doesn't work sometimes

there are some guidelines and groups of verbs that behave in similar ways

Could you please tell me some. Just curious... I can think of nouns (mentioned above) but have no idea of verbs. Do you mean spelling irregular verbs?

Could you give me some examples of hard-to-spell words

Actually I cannot I guess my spelling memory is good enough and I catch the resemblance that you mentioned easily. Personally I rarely use Russian spelling rules also, I mostly write with that instinct thing. Some people I know have difficulties...

Could you please tell me some. Just curious... I can think of nouns (mentioned above) but have no idea of verbs. Do you mean spelling irregular verbs?

I meant guessing the perfective form of a Russian verb given its imperfective form. There are some which add по-, others which change the ending to -нуть, and so on. I have noticed it becomes easier to guess this as I learn more.

Surprisingly enough, I have met very few foreign learners who had serious difficulty with the English spelling system, although English-speakers routinely lament its "complexity."

Surprisingly enough, I have met very few foreign learners who had serious difficulty with the English spelling system

Have you ever met a person from Russia who was learning English just with the typical school course?
That could be quite difficult to learn the difference when spelling -k- ck- -c- because they all sound like "k" - But I just can't figure out a good example...

Letter "k" is not used so much in English and almost rarely at the beginning of words. It is almost always paired up with "c" like you mentioned("tack", "attack", "lack"). I'm looking through Lingvo's index of English words beginning with "k" and they are almost all proper nouns or words of foreign origin. "C" is used much more often, and there are some rules(with exceptions, of course):
"C" before "e" is most often pronounced like an "s"
celebrate
celluloid
face
"C" before "a" is most often pronounced like a "k"
call
cancel
cat
"C" before "u" is most often pronounced "k"
cut
curl
"C" before "i" is pronounced most often "s"
city
citation
"c" before "o" is pronounced most often "k"
coast
comrade
concept
"c" before "y" is pronounced most often "s"
cynic
cycle

I think a lot of peculiarites in English spelling come from French, which has had a heavy influence on the language. The rules I mentioned above are the same for French(which also does not use letter "k" very much).

There is one spelling rule that is taught school ; Put i before e except after c or when the words sounds a.

But of course there are exceptions to that too!

English spelling is pretty messed up. Imagine if we followed the sounds of letters what the spelling of things would like like?

I have noticed many more people who have problems with English grammar than with English spelling.

Apparently my dream about English fixing its spelling is coming true. According to a link I saw (though I'm not entirely convinced of its credibilty), the European Union is deciding on its official language, and English has been told that it must address its spelling if it is to be the official language. Judge this link's credibility for yourself-

http://www.mail-archive.com/epfl-usa.../msg00047.html

I disagree with the 'z' and 'v' changes.

Prav, does my distaste for English spelling amuse (or, bemuse) you?
I must admit, being an English speaker is loads of fun. There's so much to mess around with. But, my love of common sense says that 'doubt' should not have a 'b' in it , etc.

You've been had. The article you are refering to was a joke (possibly an April fool's), where each of the minor changes progressively morphs English into something approaching cartoon German.

http://home.egge.net/~savory/english.htm

http://ogden.basic-english.org/euspell.html

[edit] Oh, you found it.

And you're still 'not entirely convinced'?

Haha.

Bugger!

I admit, I was concerned about a couple of the proposals being a bit too German.
Just to protect my pride here (for others who now see the link in its current state)- The article hadn't been completed in the link I originally saw it in. It showed it in its early stages.
Again--->
Or more truthfully--->

I happened to see something like this joke before though the one I saw was a kind of literary joke written by some English speaking author (hmmmm was this Mark Twain or someone else? )
Well guys it's clear for me now. You don't study spelling rules. Though they somehow exist. The one more thing I'm curious about is what do you guys do during English language classes? :P In Russia we spend at least 5 years of school learning the rules of spelling, incuding those which do not have any exceptions like ча-ща, жи-ши, etc. and doing endless excercises on these. I cannot imagine school without it.

The only spelling lessons I can remember were very early in primary/ junior school, where we learned how various combinations of letters can and do combine to make various sounds, over and above (and often in contradiction with) the purely phonetic value of each individual letter.

After that, I think we were generally just left to pick up spelling as we went along, by reading books, and having our mistakes pointed out to us whenever we make one.

Originally Posted by katerinka

Well guys it's clear for me now. You don't study spelling rules. Though they somehow exist. The one more thing I'm curious about is what do you guys do during English language classes? :P In Russia we spend at least 5 years of school learning the rules of spelling, incuding those which do not have any exceptions like ча-ща, жи-ши, etc. and doing endless excercises on these. I cannot imagine school without it.

There is not much point for us to study rules with so many exceptions. Most kids I knew did not take English classes seriously. However it seemed that all English teachers were very serious. For some reason English teachers were actually able to control their students, which was not easy at my school. We had a reputation of being a teachers nightmare.

I can see how Russians need to study their spelling and grammatical rules with all the cases and endings and minute sounds changes. With English you just have to "go with the flow" and "feel" your way through.

I was amazed the other day when a man sitting near me in a cafe struck up a conversation with me. He was curious to find out where I am from as I have a foriegn accent and was sitting with a Russian textbook. It turned out that he was from Ukraine and has only lived in the USA four months. In that time he has taught himself To speak English fairly well. English can not be that hard!

Originally Posted by DDT

English can not be that hard!

Well, if Americans can sort of speak it, it shouldn't be...

Bring it on!

Yep! I am pretty those sites you posted Brettt, were silly jokes. But they did remind me of another spelling rule taught in school. It was something about doubling the next consonant after a short vowel.

Apple: Appall: Appeal: Appear: Apricot?

I put “Apricot” in Because silly Americans like to mispronounce the word as “Appricot”.

“Appall” is here to show that rules are made to be broken (and of course to make a Russian’s life more difficult,)

Originally Posted by DDT

(and of course to make a Russian’s life more difficult, Gollandski Yozh)

I'm "gollandski", not Russian. And English spelling rules (or lack thereof) do not complicate my life on bit. I do pitty those poor English/American/Australian etc. school kids, though...

That was fast!

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

pitty

ошибка. жалко.

Anyone remember the "magic e"? Is it just me? Nobody else seems to remember it.