Thread: shall / will

What do you think about using "will" with 1st person?

For example:
I will sing the song.

That could be a thorny one, depending on who answers first and what sort of mood they are in

The American Heritage Dictionary has this to say:

The traditional rules for using shall and will prescribe a highly complicated pattern of use in which the meanings of the forms change according to the person of the subject. In the first person, shall is used to indicate simple futurity: I shall (not will) have to buy another ticket. In the second and third persons, the same sense of futurity is expressed by will: The comet will (not shall) return in 87 years. You will (not shall) probably encounter some heavy seas when you round the point. The use of will in the first person and of shall in the second and third may express determination, promise, obligation, or permission, depending on the context. Thus I will leave tomorrow indicates that the speaker is determined to leave; You and she shall leave tomorrow is likely to be interpreted as a command. The sentence You shall have your money expresses a promise (“I will see that you get your money”), whereas You will have your money makes a simple prediction. ·Such, at least, are the traditional rules. The English and some traditionalists about usage are probably the only people who follow these rules, and then not with perfect consistency. In America, people who try to adhere to them run the risk of sounding pretentious or haughty. Americans normally use will to express most of the senses reserved for shall in English usage. Americans use shall chiefly in first person invitations and questions that request an opinion or agreement, such as Shall we go? and in certain fixed expressions, such as We shall overcome. In formal style, Americans use shall to express an explicit obligation, as in Applicants shall provide a proof of residence, though this sense is also expressed by must or should. In speech the distinction that the English signal by the choice of shall or will may be rendered by stressing the auxiliary, as in I will leave tomorrow (“I intend to leave”); by choosing another auxiliary, such as must or have to; or by using an adverb such as certainly. ·In addition to its sense of obligation, shall also can convey high moral seriousness that derives in part from its extensive use in the King James Bible, as in “Righteousness shall go before him and shall set us in the way of his steps” (Ps 85:13) and “He that shall humble himself shall be exalted” (Mt 23:12). The prophetic overtones that shall bears with it have no doubt led to its use in some of the loftiest rhetoric in English. This may be why Lincoln chose to use it instead of will in the Gettysburg Address:“government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.”

My own experience wouldn't lead me to disagree with any of that. I use 'shall', but probably not consistently, and I know plenty of other Brits who don't use it at all. I can't imagine anyone, Brit, American or otherwise, even noticing a mistake or miss-use one way or t'other, much less caring enough to point it out to you.

If you're not sure, just say "will". And then make sure you never write any specifications, which simply shall not be written without "shall".

I would not notice, mainly because this has never been pointed out to me. However, you can't use "will" in suggestions, though I guess you knew that anyway. Now all we have to do is wait for Linzi and joysof to join in the discussion...

I only teach my students to use shall for suggestions in the first person (singular or plural). But that's probably because I don't have any students beyond the intermediate level.
Another snippet of information: like many other 'core' English words, there is a 'reduced' form in which the 'a' sound reduces to a schwa .. not only is this the normal way to say it in fast, everyday native speech, but also, it sounds less pretentious, haughty and pompous

scotcher's AHD quote sums it up pretty nicely I think, but note I don't agree that 'some Brits don't use it at all' (see above)...

Originally Posted by Oddo

I would not notice, mainly because this has never been pointed out to me. However, you can't use "will" in suggestions, though I guess you knew that anyway. Now all we have to do is wait for Linzi and joysof to join in the discussion...

Please, do get over it.

I think Scotcher's dictionary quotation says pretty much everything that needs be said. Over on this side of the pond, it sounds not only pretentious but nigh archaic in spoken speech, but it's still necessary in writing. I'd say that in the US people use it in the bare minimum of circumstances, though. Any place you could, by any stretch of logic, use "will," people, um, will. Or they'll use an alternate construction with similar meaning (e.g. "Should I link to your site?" instead of "Shall I link to your site?").

Ah, but it was true wasn't it? Anyway, it's joysof who really bothers me sometimes. Pardon me for misspelling your name, though I guess if you said it, it would not sound like it had a "d" anyway...

BTW are you a man or a woman? I assumed woman, but I guess that's just because most people with unisex names are...

Originally Posted by Oddo

Ah, but it was true wasn't it? Anyway, it's joysof who really bothers me sometimes. Pardon me for misspelling your name, though I guess if you said it, it would not sound like it had a "d" anyway...

BTW are you a man or a woman? I assumed woman, but I guess that's just because most people with unisex names are...

Oddo, what you need to remember about me is that I have a degree in Journalism. I take nitpicky points of English language very seriously. My professors used to deduct ten points for every AP Style Handbook violation. Oops, spelled it "judgement" instead of "judgment"? Grade's down to a B. Put the comma on the wrong side of the quotation marks? C. Et cetera. It's a little nerve-wracking, to say the least.

Don't worry about the "mispelling" of my name, especially considering it's actually spelled "Lindsay." And yeah, I'm a chick. I've got ovaries and stuff. (But I do pronouce the D, actually.)

In my all honest advice to the russian population. Here is how to break it down.

Most people will never use "shall", unless hey are either joking, or really old.

2, will, to me, anyways, seems like it's russian counterpart будет + imperfective. I would use will to show habituality... but not always, you can use will with certainty. like "I will kill him, if it's the last thing that i do".

If you want to say you will do something once and then...well, Prefective =). I would use "Going to" or "gunna"

"Im going to wash the car tomorrow". Sounds alot better than saying

I'll wash the car tomorrow. Of course, you can say the second, if you are either, replying to somone who asked if you are going to wash the car tomorrow. Or maybe you are thinking this to yourself because you planned on washing the car for the last week and never did. So tomorrow you WILL for sure.

So for example.

Will you please remove the dead cat from under the house tomorrow?
Yes, I will do it.
As apposed to
OK, tomorrow i'm gunna remove the dead cat from under the house.

Pretty much the same thing, but if you just up and said "I will remove the cat" without being asked about it, it sounds weird, like you are on a quest for the cat or something.

Originally Posted by Dogboy182

So for example.

Will you please remove the dead cat from under the house tomorrow?
Yes, I will do it.
As apposed to
OK, tomorrow i'm gunna remove the dead cat from under the house.

Pretty much the same thing, but if you just up and said "I will remove the cat" without being asked about it, it sounds weird, like you are on a quest for the cat or something.

You should write a conversational English book.

Well if you want to spread it out to consider all future forms in English (fools rush in where.. ), you have to look at all these possibilities:

I kill the cat.
I'm killing the cat.
I'm going to kill the cat.
I will kill the cat.
I shall kill the cat.
I will be killing the cat.
I will have killed the cat.
I will have been killing the cat.

and conceivably even 'I would kill the cat' etc. (would replacing will) which, depending on how you look at it, can sometimes refer to the future.

I've missed out other modals like 'might', 'can', 'should' because we could go on forever..

You have no chance of explaining all this unless you consider function, e.g. promise, suggestion, prediction etc.
By the way, if you're confused about the first example 'I kill the cat', think about the word 'timetable'. расписание.

You do have a cat-killing timetable, don't you?

(PS. This post was mainly for the native speakers, I don't think most of the Russians here need it, they already know..)

(PPS Dogboy, joking aside, you made a pretty good effort at explaining going to vs. will. The main point is that going to is used for 'already planned' things, whereas 'will' is used for decisions made right now (actually there are a lot of other uses of will, but let's ignore that). will is also used for predictions, although this is a rather shady area, not least because going to is used for predictions based on current (especially sensory) evidence))))))how many brackets?

I'm a little confused. Could you confirm the proposition about the different speaker groups have diverse senses of 'I will kill this cat', isn't it?

Originally Posted by Oddo

Ah, but it was true wasn't it? Anyway, it's joysof who really bothers me sometimes.

Eh, bien fol qui

Originally Posted by BETEP

I'm a little confused. Could you confirm the proposition about the different speaker groups have diverse senses of 'I will kill this cat', isn't it?

The primary and most likely function of 'I will kill this cat' would be : decision now. You are deciding, at this moment, to do something. Usually you would use 'I'll' rather than 'I will' in everyday speech.

'I will kill this cat' could also be a prediction about the future. This is unlikely, not least because of your choice of the demonstrative 'this' (этот). However, it's possible, e.g. 'One day, I will kill this cat..'

'I shall kill this cat' would never be heard unless you are trying to be archaic, poetic or very pompous (e.g. a politician).
Shall I kill this cat? as a предложение, however, would be perfectly normal in British English.

Trust me. Go on, trust me

I shall kill anyone who shall touch my cat. No kidding.

It's very informative. Thank you.